[Mike Dobony]

On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 19:57:16 +0100, John Williamson wrote:

Mike Dobony wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 09:12:36 -0700, Richard Crowley wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote ...
"Mike Dobony" wrote
Scott Dorsey wrote:
Mike Dobony wrote:
Why do you call them a dweeb? A speaker who stays in
one spot is a poor speaker. The best speakers are
those who are involved with the audience and
intersperse in the crowd. They draw the audience in by
going to the audience. This involves going in front of
speakers. You are way to biased towards music. Public
speaking has a whole new set of rules. This is a greta
application for the FBD.
Because rule number one is that you NEVER walk in front
of the speakers. If you want to move around and get with
the audience, that's fine. But there are places where
you don't go, and one of them is in front of the
speakers. And if you DO go there, and it DOES feedback,
you shouldn't be surprised and start glaring at the PA
operator. --scott
Okay, how do you get to the audience without occasionally
getting in front of the speakers?
Stay behind the speakers. Most serious venues are designed so that the
loudpeakers are always in front of the performers.
Or use a headset mic close to the mouth so you can increase
the gain before feedback. And be sure to be speaking in a
space with good acoustics so the reinforcement system doesn't
have to work so hard.

Being that selective is stupid for both performers and speakers, especially
those with life-altering or life-protecting messages.

I've been lurking on the sidelines here, & the thought strikes me that
if the message is *that* important, it's worth investing a few minutes
in learning how to get the best communication possible between audience
& lecturer/ performer.

You can't communicate effectively if your message can't be heard, so
spending a few moments with the microphone user running through the best
way to get heard is well worth the effort. To be honest, it's not rocket
science. If they then ignore it, you've tried. If they listen & do it
right, then everyone wins. (Diplomacy is needed....)

Just my 2 penn'orth.

It's always nice when you have great equipment, a great room to work with,
and a highly trained speaker. Then there is reality. Preparing for the
worst is a wise strategy. When the worst doesn't happen, you're doing
great. When the worst happens, you look great because you are prepared.

I am limited by the equipment I have available. I am limited by the room
layout. I have no idea how skilled the speaker is and will have other
duties before the breakout sessions. There is a good likelihood that I may
not be able to be there 100% of the time. It would be foolish and
irresponsible to not make full use of the effective tools I have available.

Mike D.

[Mike Dobony]

On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 16:31:29 GMT, Mike Rivers wrote:

Mike Dobony wrote:

Okay, how do you get to the audience without occasionally getting in front
of the speakers? Yes, you need to stay a few feet away, but you still need
to get in front of the speakers.

You (the speaker) learns about microphone polar patterns, and gets an
appropriate mic

So YOU buy us the appropriate one. We need it delivered by Friday morning.
I have to work with what is available. I purchased the DEQ on my own as I
will be using it for my own speaking engagements. After getting my own
amp, speakers and sticks I will be looking at a more appropriate mic.
Until then what I have now works fine and will work even better wiht some
mild compression.

if he's going to be walking around in the audience. He
learns to talk very close to the mic (and the PA operator sets the gain
accordingly) and if he puts an audience member on mic, he makes sure
that it's close and pointed away from the speakers rather than toward them.


Duh.

It's not impossible to get in front of the speakers, but it takes care
to avoid feedback.

Duh.

Singers on stage learn how to work a mic around
monitor speakers, and lecturers can learn the same things. It should be
a course that they take in lecturing school.

Where is that school? Most teachers do not have any SR training and time
to teach them is not available. I have tools that will accommodate
moderately knowledgeable speakers goof ups and cover for me if I have to be
pulled away and leave the SR gear unattended. It seems to me it would be
extremely foolish and irresponsible to not use them.

Mike D.

[Mike Rivers]

Mike Dobony wrote:

These are NOT performers, but teachers. Sticking to "serious venues" is
not an option.

A teacher who doesn't understand performance isn't a good teacher. But
this is getting you nowhere. If you have a bad situation, which you do,
you either get an experienced operator or you get a good feedback
suppressor (a $1,000 one works, a $100 one works sometimes) and take the
occasional problems it introduces along with the reduced feedback.

--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Mike Rivers]

Teddy D'Bear wrote:

Speaking of books, I've been meaning to ask this question. Has anyone
cracked open "Recording Studio Design", Second Edition, by Philip Newell
(Dec 2, 2007)?

I've been eyeing this book since before Christmas, but it's pretty
expensive. (Although Amazon just decreased it to $67.96).

I don't know if this one's worth it, but I learned in college more than
40 years ago that technical books are expensive. This one doesn't seem
to be out of line pricewise.

What do you need to know?



--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Mike Rivers]

Mike Dobony wrote:

So what? Teachers shouldn't be limited by technology, but empowered by it.
Limiting contact with the audience is not empowering or effective.

Oh, sure. So we might just as well say that a singer shouldn't be
limited by technology but empowered by it. It's not effective or
empowering to learn how to sing on pitch.

Oh, never mind.

That is
why I like the FBD and compressors. Used carefully combined with using the
body as a shield between the mic and speaker and staying as far away from
the speaker as possible are proven techniques of not crippling the
teacher/speaker.

I thought you said those were crippling the teacher. Make up your mind.

What about when the equipment available and
room do not allow that? Are you going to be a coward and give up because
you don't have excellent conditions or are you going to use the tools
available to overcome the obstacles to the best of your ability?

No, you work with what you have. You tell the teacher "Don't do that or
you'll get feedback." They learn fast.

A headset would have simply been ripped
from my head from centrifugal force.

Dood, you clearly have an unusual set of problem that require unusual
solutions. You're on your own here. You have the experience with the
venue and the teachers. Do what you need. We really can't advise you any
further.

--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Richard Webb]

To: Mike Rivers
Mike Rivers wrote:

These are NOT performers, but teachers. Sticking to "serious venues" is
not an option.

A teacher who doesn't understand performance isn't a good teacher.
But this is getting you nowhere. If you have a bad situation, which
you do, you either get an experienced operator or you get a good
feedback suppressor (a $1,000 one works, a $100 one works
sometimes) and take the occasional problems it introduces along
with the reduced feedback.

And his budget probably won't handle that. mike poses a question he wants
answers to, but the only answers that anybody with a clue can provide him are
supposedly unworkable.

I've done too many conferences to count over the years, and yes there were
issues with presenters not understanding mic technique, feedback, etc. I'd ring
out the system as carefully as I could, use pans when set up stereo, all sorts
of tricks. Rarely did I patch in a compressor. EVen when I had them I found
they introduced as many problems as they solved.

HE wants to do this on the cheap, no system operator present, devote only
limited time to babysitting the system. YES this is an app for those cool
feedback destroyer notch filter gadgets, if he can afford a good one with
enough filters. I've never owned one, never used one, never saw the need.

when I did one group's convention every year back in the '70's and '80's I'd
often draft a participant with some experience to ride herd on the system while
I coached a presenter waiting to do his/her thing on how to use a microphone,
go get my lunch, etc.

This was in the days when many used cassettes. I used two open reel machines,
4 track monaural for longer running time. YEs I traded some flutter and wow
and other lower specs for longer running time, transferred to cassette after
the fact.
eventually I went to cassettes just to not have to hassle with the transfers,
timed the tapes for changeover. USed two recorders.


Regards,
Richard
.... use elspider at bellsouth dot net to email ...
--- timEd 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Radio REscue net operations BBS (1:116/901)
--- Synchronet 3.15a-Win32 NewsLink 1.85
* Derby City Online - Louisville, KY - telnet://derbycitybbs.com

[Mike Dobony]

On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 00:28:47 +0000, Richard Webb wrote:

To: Mike Rivers
Mike Rivers wrote:

These are NOT performers, but teachers. Sticking to "serious venues" is
not an option.

A teacher who doesn't understand performance isn't a good teacher.
But this is getting you nowhere. If you have a bad situation, which
you do, you either get an experienced operator or you get a good
feedback suppressor (a $1,000 one works, a $100 one works
sometimes) and take the occasional problems it introduces along
with the reduced feedback.

And his budget probably won't handle that. mike poses a question he wants
answers to, but the only answers that anybody with a clue can provide him are
supposedly unworkable.


Close. Not unworkable, but outside the authority I have been given. If I
try to jump outside the limits set by the authorities in charge I
disqualify myself for doing anything at all. This concept is rejecte dby
the rebels in charge.

I've done too many conferences to count over the years, and yes there were
issues with presenters not understanding mic technique, feedback, etc. I'd ring
out the system as carefully as I could, use pans when set up stereo, all sorts
of tricks. Rarely did I patch in a compressor. EVen when I had them I found
they introduced as many problems as they solved.

HE wants to do this on the cheap, no system operator present, devote only
limited time to babysitting the system. YES this is an app for those cool
feedback destroyer notch filter gadgets, if he can afford a good one with
enough filters. I've never owned one, never used one, never saw the need.


I NEED to do this on the cheap, what we have and only buy what is necessary
to get the existing equipment working (patch cords, terminals, etc.). No
system operator is a high probability for a limited time.

when I did one group's convention every year back in the '70's and '80's I'd
often draft a participant with some experience to ride herd on the system while
I coached a presenter waiting to do his/her thing on how to use a microphone,
go get my lunch, etc.

This was in the days when many used cassettes. I used two open reel machines,
4 track monaural for longer running time. YEs I traded some flutter and wow
and other lower specs for longer running time, transferred to cassette after
the fact.
eventually I went to cassettes just to not have to hassle with the transfers,
timed the tapes for changeover. USed two recorders.


Sounds like fun!

Mike D. off on another errand and still have to finish putting my system
back together.

[Mike Dobony]

On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 18:15:14 GMT, Ron Capik wrote:

Mike Dobony wrote:


.....snip...

These are NOT performers, but teachers. Sticking to "serious venues" is
not an option.

If they are teachers then they should also be learners, as
in they are (or at least should be) trainable. Don't sell them
short, give them some training. As for not being performers,
I believe teaching is very much a performance art.


Train them to do what? Avoid effective techniques because the technology
doesn't allow it instead of using the effective, available technology that
reduces the problems so that the teacher is not crippled?


Also explain what this has to do with compression.

Later...

Ron Capik

[Ron Capik]

Mike Dobony wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 18:15:14 GMT, Ron Capik wrote:

...snip...

If they are teachers then they should also be learners, as
in they are (or at least should be) trainable. Don't sell them
short, give them some training. As for not being performers,
I believe teaching is very much a performance art.


Train them to do what? Avoid effective techniques because the technology
doesn't allow it instead of using the effective, available technology that
reduces the problems so that the teacher is not crippled?

Also explain what this has to do with compression.

Later...

Ron Capik

Train them not to do, but to know. How they use the knowledge
is up to them.

Your next question isn't even a complete sentence and thus (as
stated) is unanswerable.

As for compression, it never came up in this part of the thread.


[Stick a fork in me] I'm done...

Ron Capik
--

[Arny Krueger]

"Mike Dobony" wrote in message

On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 15:30:45 -0400, Arny Krueger wrote:


You don't get to say "so what" about the laws of
physics. It's a lot like trying to argue with God.

I get to say "so what" because you are ignoring the
situation.

Nope.

Effective teachers/lectureres go INTO the
audience. The use of a FBD allows much higher SPL levels.

Obviously, you have very limited experience with feedback. The usual rule of
thumb is that feedback destroyers are only effective if you let them hunt
for feedback modes, and then lock them down because if left in automatic
mode, they start hunting down and destroying parts of the signals you want
to amplify. Trouble is, feedback frequencies change pretty dramatically when
the mic moves around.

Botttom line, your roving lecturers will tend to destroy the usability of a
feedback destroyer.

Teachers shouldn't be limited by technology,
but empowered by it.

Agreed, but irrelevant to any discussion of the limits
enforced by the laws of phyiscs.

There are tools available to "push" the limits, like
compressors and FBD's.

Comressors tend to exasperate any signficant amount of feedback that you
have. I already pointed out one of the inherent limitations of feedback
destroyers.

Limiting contact with the audience
is not empowering or effective.

In my book, not loud enough, or feedback are pretty
severe limits on contact with the audience.

So? The proper and appropriate use of good eqing and a
FBD pushes back those limits so that the volume can be
sufficient in most cases and still allow the teacher to
enter the audience to interact with them.

I don't need to argue with you, I just need to let you have your way and
live with the predictable results.

Do you need some elementary education in the use of
compressors and FBD's?

Not hardly. It appears that your elementary education in their use will be
forthcoming. ;-)

[Bob Urz]

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Mike Dobony" wrote in message


On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 15:30:45 -0400, Arny Krueger wrote:



You don't get to say "so what" about the laws of
physics. It's a lot like trying to argue with God.

I get to say "so what" because you are ignoring the
situation.


Nope.


Effective teachers/lectureres go INTO the
audience. The use of a FBD allows much higher SPL levels.


Obviously, you have very limited experience with feedback. The usual rule of
thumb is that feedback destroyers are only effective if you let them hunt
for feedback modes, and then lock them down because if left in automatic
mode, they start hunting down and destroying parts of the signals you want
to amplify. Trouble is, feedback frequencies change pretty dramatically when
the mic moves around.


Obviously, your previous method of recording feedback and analyzing it
after the fact was not very effective either.........

And you don't seem to have real world experience with a quality device
like a DFR-11 or 22 or such.

I have installed them in commercial installs and the results have been
more than acceptable. In some systems, its the difference between making
the system usable and not.

I usually ring out the room with the mikes that are going to be used
and lock down 4 to 6 filters, then let the rest of them float.
Now, this is with a Shure, and not some feedback destroyer MI crap.
When you start to get multiple points ringing at once, your about done.

No, a unit like a DFR will not make it possible to use 100 lavalier
mikes at once. But it will drastically increase the stability of the
system in many cases and the quality will be much better than notching
1/3 octaves.




Botttom line, your roving lecturers will tend to destroy the usability of a
feedback destroyer.


Rule of Arnys thumbs: sit on them..........


Teachers shouldn't be limited by technology,
but empowered by it.

Agreed, but irrelevant to any discussion of the limits
enforced by the laws of phyiscs.


There are tools available to "push" the limits, like
compressors and FBD's.


Comressors tend to exasperate any signficant amount of feedback that you
have. I already pointed out one of the inherent limitations of feedback
destroyers.

I guess in Arntology, a compressor is a pretty useless device....


Limiting contact with the audience
is not empowering or effective.

In my book, not loud enough, or feedback are pretty
severe limits on contact with the audience.


So? The proper and appropriate use of good eqing and a
FBD pushes back those limits so that the volume can be
sufficient in most cases and still allow the teacher to
enter the audience to interact with them.


I don't need to argue with you, I just need to let you have your way and
live with the predictable results.


Do you need some elementary education in the use of
compressors and FBD's?


Not hardly. It appears that your elementary education in their use will be
forthcoming. ;-)


The University of Krueger:

You too can earn your degree in sound engineering by usenet on the internet!

And you will get exactly what you pay for! And much, much more!

Bob




----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

[Arny Krueger]

"bob urz" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Mike Dobony" wrote in
message

On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 15:30:45 -0400, Arny Krueger wrote:

You don't get to say "so what" about the laws of
physics. It's a lot like trying to argue with God.

I get to say "so what" because you are ignoring the
situation.

Nope.

Effective teachers/lectureres go INTO the
audience. The use of a FBD allows much higher SPL
levels.

Obviously, you have very limited experience with
feedback. The usual rule of thumb is that feedback
destroyers are only effective if you let them hunt for
feedback modes, and then lock them down because if left
in automatic mode, they start hunting down and
destroying parts of the signals you want to amplify.

Trouble is, feedback frequencies change pretty
dramatically when the mic moves around.

Obviously, your previous method of recording feedback and
analyzing it after the fact was not very effective either.........

In fact that approach was highly effective when the environment remains
relatively consistent.

And you don't seem to have real world experience with a
quality device like a DFR-11 or 22 or such.

And Bob this relates to Mike's situation, how? He's talking the "Feedback
Destroyers" that you like to knock.

I have installed them in commercial installs and the
results have been more than acceptable.

How many of them were comparable to Mike's situation?

In some systems, its the difference
between making the system usable and not.

Good.

I usually ring out the room with the mikes that are going
to be used and lock down 4 to 6 filters, then let the rest of them
float. Now, this is with a Shure, and not some feedback
destroyer MI crap.

Hence my question about how this is relevant to Mike's situation.

But Bob thanks for at least admitting that you see a benefit to locking down
some filters.

When you start to get multiple points ringing at once,
your about done.

I dunno, I worked through a similar situation for VBS at church this week.
The mic was fixed in place, so there were many benefits to nailing 3
different ring points.

No, a unit like a DFR will not make it possible to use
100 lavalier mikes at once.

We've found that headset mics are the bomb. Readers on a budget should be
aware that Full Compass is letting another batch of off-rental E6's go for
about $210 apiece.

But it will drastically increase the
stability of the system in many cases and the quality will be much better
than notching 1/3 octaves.

Bottom line, your roving lecturers will tend to destroy
the usability of a feedback destroyer.

Rule of Arnys(sic) rules of thumbs: sit on them..........

Bob Urz's rule of thumb - hype Shure equipment and knock competitive gear
without mentioning his sales relationship with Shure, contrary to common
sense and the usual Usenet protocol.

[Mike Rivers]

Teddy D'Bear wrote:

I would like to build a studio so my kids, and the kids at school have a
place where they can apply their talents and experiment around. And when
they are not using it, I've got plenty of my own post work I can do

My weak area is the physical design of the rooms. Acoustic treatments,
materials, sizes and angles of rooms, floor design, etc.

Jeff Cooper's books are pretty good. You might check out his "Building a
Small Budget Recording Studio"
http://www.amazon.com/Build-Budget-R.../dp/0071387005
I don't know if it's been revised in the past 20 years, so it might be a
little old fashioned, but the basic principles haven't changed, and you
can look over some ready-to-build designs to get ideas.




--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Phildo]

"Mike Dobony" wrote in message
...
Then again, some
of the people recording were not trained by me

They are the lucky ones.

and they refused to learn
the proper way to mix.

How can you teach a proper way to mi when you don't know how to yourself?

Phildo

[Phildo]

"Mike Dobony" wrote in message
...
I saw a stand-alone compressor around here somewhere that was not being
used. If I find it before the conference I might go ahead and use it. It
would be much better than the simple one on the DEQ.

Again you show your cluelessness. The one on the DEQ is almost certainly way
more powerful than any stand-alone unit you have.

Phildo

[Phildo]

"Mike Dobony" wrote in message
...
Or use a headset mic close to the mouth so you can increase
the gain before feedback. And be sure to be speaking in a
space with good acoustics so the reinforcement system doesn't
have to work so hard.

Being that selective is stupid for both performers and speakers,

No, it is merely doing the best possible job as regards sound which on this
newsgroup is first priority above all else.

especially
those with life-altering or life-protecting messages.

You mean your fairy stories.

Phildo

[Phildo]

"Mike Dobony" wrote in message
.. .
This is a
greta application for the FBD.

A FBD is a band-aid for someone who doesn't know what they are doing when it
comes to sound. Unless used properly (NOT in the way you are thinking of
Bony) then they are not very effective at all. There is no substitute for
someone who knows what they are doing at the controls and sadly that is not
you Bony.

Phildo

[Phildo]

"Mike Dobony" wrote in message
...
Do you need some elementary education in the use of compressors and FBD's?

No, YOU do. Would be good to get a basic education in sound as well while
you are at it. Also, maybe a class on people skills might help.

Phildo

[Chris Whealy]

Teddy D'Bear wrote:
Quoting "Paul Stamler" :
May I suggest that you obtain and read the "Yamaha Sound Reinforcement
Handbook"?

Speaking of books, I've been meaning to ask this question. Has anyone
cracked open "Recording Studio Design", Second Edition, by Philip Newell
(Dec 2, 2007)?

http://tinyurl.com/3lzogq

I've been eyeing this book since before Christmas, but it's pretty
expensive. (Although Amazon just decreased it to $67.96).

Just wondering if it's worth the read, or if it will just generate dust on
the bookshelf. The reviews seem to be positive.

Ted

I've got this book, and it is detailed, thorough and is written by
someone with many years of practical experience backed up by a sound
theoretical understanding of acoustics and electro-acoustics. However,
I don't think this book would help in the context of your original question.

In light of your original question, you would be better off following
Paul's advice and getting Yamaha's "Sound Reinforcement Handbook". Then
perhaps at a later date, if you need to understand the intricacies of
designing and building a recording studio, Phil Newell's book will be a
very useful purchase.

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
But the words of the wise are quiet and few.
---