Hi all,
I´m in the process of buying a pair of Neumann KM 184. The matched
stereo pairs in the wooden case that they used to sell are no longer
available. The salesperson told me that tolerances in Neumann mics are
so close that there is no need to have a specially matched pair and that
Neumann charges an extra 120$ to do that.
So, what is your opinion on a stereo pair for acoustic fingerstyle
guitar?
Thanks in advance Dieter

The salesperson told me that tolerances in Neumann mics are
so close that there is no need to have a specially matched pair and that
Neumann charges an extra 120$ to do that.
So, what is your opinion

This is one case where the sales person was right.


Scott Fraser

Dieter,

I have 2 KM184 with non consecutive serial numbers.
They are not a "matched" pair, so the first time I picked them
I made this test: with the 2 capsule as close as possible I
recorded a mono source, same gain on mic pres (John Hardy M-1)
then reversed polarity on one of the recorded tracks and monitored in
mono.
Silence.
I think they are matched (well they're matched enough for me!).

Alberto

Dieter Ossenberg wrote:

The salesperson told me that tolerances in Neumann mics are
so close that there is no need to have a specially matched pair

Their tolerances are 'close enough' and the resolution of their amplifiers
will cover any differences that are left.

and that
Neumann charges an extra 120$ to do that.

He's full of ****... they don't "match" them period... at least for US
distribution they don't.


So, what is your opinion on a stereo pair for acoustic fingerstyle
guitar?

A pair of KM-184's? Eh. I wouldn't... I've become a huge fan of both the
Josephson C-42MP [which is a factory "matched" set] and the T.H.E "KP-6M"s
in that application. Both seem a bit less strident to me than the KM-184's,
and both are less expensive than a pair of KM-184's [at least in the US they
are...]

Best of luck with the search.
--
Fletcher
Mercenary Audio
TEL: 508-543-0069
FAX: 508-543-9670
http://www.mercenary.com
"this is not a problem"

Thanks for the input.
As you might have guessed, I´m suspicious of salespersons and I don´t
dare to argue with them.
I followed the discussions here in this forum and understood that the
main choices in SC mics for acoustic fingerstyle guitar are the
Josephson C42, the Neumann KM 184, the Microtec-Gefell M294 and the
Schoeps CCM 4
The Schoeps (1050 Euros)and the Gefell (950 Euros) are a bit above my
price limit.
Unfortunately the Josephsons are not sold here in Europe, so there´s no
chance to try them out.
I own quite a few high class acoustics (Martin, Collings, Gallagher) so
all I want is to record their unique beautiful natural sound without
coloration of the mics. I´ve struggled with a pair of AKG 1000 until
now, which I think are really horrible for acoustic guitar.
I didn´t consider the Neumann KM 84, because I thought it is no longer
manufactured, so correct me if I´m wrong.
BTW, Neumann mics have gone up quite a bit in price recently: the KM 184
is now up from 595 to 685 Euros here.
Thanks again for your advice
Dieter

In article writes:

The salesperson told me that tolerances in Neumann mics are
so close that there is no need to have a specially matched pair

He's full of ****... they don't "match" them period... at least for US
distribution they don't.

Until about a year ago, while they didn't actually "match" microphones
(for the above reason) they did package mics as a pair for a premium
price. Different case, different vibe. Not necessary, really, but the
customers asked, so they responded. I guess they eventually realized
that it was silly and they'd rather educate the customer and not be
bothered with the packaging and paperwork for a measly hundred bucks.

I have two KM84's which I frequently use as a stereo pair and I just
balanced them first by watching the meters and then by ear. I don't
think I've ever set the recording gain more than maybe 1.5 dB apart
between channels. I occasionally use a preamp with stepped rather than
adjustable gain, but that goes into something with continuously
adjustable gain so I don't have to worry about a slight gain mismatch
at the mic. I'm not afraid to turn knobs off "zero" if it doesn't
sound right. And since X-Y recording is mostly off axis (where they
don't measure frequency response when "matching" mics) matching
wouldn't really help that either.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

Alberto Cima wrote:

Dieter,

I have 2 KM184 with non consecutive serial numbers.
They are not a "matched" pair, so the first time I picked them
I made this test: with the 2 capsule as close as possible I
recorded a mono source, same gain on mic pres (John Hardy M-1)
then reversed polarity on one of the recorded tracks and monitored in
mono.
Silence.
I think they are matched (well they're matched enough for me!).

I find this very hard to believe. Just the separation that
"as close as possible" implies will pick up the pressure
gradient that exists in any sound field.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

Alberto Cima wrote:

Bob,
that's what happened to me.
It was a quick test, just to see if the 2 mics are ok.
Maybe I made something wrong.
I put the mics, side by side, in the center of my room
and recorded a signal from a speaker 2 m (about 6-7 ft) away.
When I reversed the polarity I didn't hear any sound.
Perhaps the noise floor of my studio is higher then the
difference between my km184's.
Or I just made some dumbass error.
I'm still learning.
And I WANT to learn more.

Well, if your room were anechoic, and the mics were exactly
equidistant from the mono source, and it was a perfectly
isotropic radiator, and they were exactly matched, and your
pre-amp gains were exactly the same then you would have a
condition wherein you would get true silence if you
subtracted them out of phase.

Do you see the problem? :-)


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

Alberto Cima wrote:
that's what happened to me.
It was a quick test, just to see if the 2 mics are ok.
Maybe I made something wrong.
I put the mics, side by side, in the center of my room
and recorded a signal from a speaker 2 m (about 6-7 ft) away.
When I reversed the polarity I didn't hear any sound.

That's what's supposed to happen.

Perhaps the noise floor of my studio is higher then the
difference between my km184's.
Or I just made some dumbass error.
I'm still learning.

If the two microphones are identical and they are at the same place in
space (or really close anyway), when you invert one of them, the signals
from the two will cancel out and you will get nothing.

If the two microphones are almost identical but not quite, you will get
the difference signal between them.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Mike Rivers wrote:

[ ... ] X-Y recording is mostly off axis (where they don't measure
frequency response when "matching" mics) matching wouldn't really
help that either.

Actually, the one manufacturer I know that does still do pair matching of
microphones (or larger sets than two if needed) does consider sensitivity
and both on- and off-axis response. It's for exactly the reason you gave:
In coincident stereo recording you don't aim either microphone's main axis
directly forward, unless it's the "M" microphone in an M/S pair of
figure-8s--which is not a very often-used recording technique.

But just between you and me and 10,000 lurkers, I suspect that if certain
influential producers and engineers were to ask Neumann Berlin nicely
to hand-select a pair of microphones, Neumann would at least check the
factory curves to make sure that the proposed pair was not a bad match.
They're polite, reasonable, service-oriented people; they're not in
business to offend their customers. Just because something isn't on the
price list doesn't mean that they won't consider it if you ask nicely.

AKG used to be the same way and back in the 1970s I was offered special
pair matching if I wanted it. But I've lost touch with the people I knew
there back then, so I don't know if that goes on any more now that they're
A Harman Company and all.

In Article , Dieter Ossenberg
wrote:
Thanks for the input.
As you might have guessed, IYm suspicious of salespersons and I donYt
dare to argue with them.
I followed the discussions here in this forum and understood that the
main choices in SC mics for acoustic fingerstyle guitar are the
Josephson C42, the Neumann KM 184, the Microtec-Gefell M294 and the
Schoeps CCM 4
The Schoeps (1050 Euros)and the Gefell (950 Euros) are a bit above my
price limit.
Unfortunately the Josephsons are not sold here in Europe, so thereYs no
chance to try them out.
I own quite a few high class acoustics (Martin, Collings, Gallagher) so
all I want is to record their unique beautiful natural sound without
coloration of the mics. IYve struggled with a pair of AKG 1000 until
now, which I think are really horrible for acoustic guitar.
I didnYt consider the Neumann KM 84, because I thought it is no longer
manufactured, so correct me if IYm wrong.
BTW, Neumann mics have gone up quite a bit in price recently: the KM 184
is now up from 595 to 685 Euros here.
Thanks again for your advice
Dieter


Hi Dieter,,
In teh Audio Archives of my website is a sample of my 1772 D 28S Martin
with mostly dead medium strings and a Schoeps CMC641. Go listen. I really
like the CMC641.

Regards,

Ty Ford

For Ty Ford V/O demos, audio services and equipment reviews,
click on http://www.jagunet.com/~tford

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message

Alberto Cima wrote:
that's what happened to me.
It was a quick test, just to see if the 2 mics are ok.
Maybe I made something wrong.
I put the mics, side by side, in the center of my room
and recorded a signal from a speaker 2 m (about 6-7 ft) away.
When I reversed the polarity I didn't hear any sound.

That's what's supposed to happen.

Is it possible to get the mics close enough for this to work with a
broadband sound source?

I'm pretty sure that it's impossible because of our inability to make 2 mics
occupy the identical same space at the same time.

I think it might be possible if you synchronized two recordings made with
identical sources. However it would take a sample rate of about a MHz to get
the synchronization required. Been there, done that.

Perhaps the noise floor of my studio is higher then the
difference between my km184's.
Or I just made some dumbass error.
I'm still learning.

If the two microphones are identical and they are at the same place in
space (or really close anyway), when you invert one of them, the
signals from the two will cancel out and you will get nothing.

I seriously doubt that a really broadband sound source like keys jangling
would even get you close.

If the two microphones are almost identical but not quite, you will
get the difference signal between them.

Also, if they occupy different chunks of space.

My experience with KM-84s has been that they vary in sensitivity by up to 2 dB,
unit-to-unit, but they don't seem to vary in frequency response much. As a
result, you can use them in stereo pairs as long as you have the flexibility to
set one preamp channel's gain a bit higher than the other's.
(Which is why I don't own an RNP, despite its other fine features.)

On the other hand, my experience with Shure condenser microphones is that
they're matched within 0.25dB, and the pairs of KSM-37 and KSM-41 were within
0.1dB, both with identical frequency responses within the pairs. I complimented
Shure in the review on the pair matching, to which they replied that they don't
pair match; these were off-the-shelf.

On the third hand, while I found these to be excellent microphones with many
potential uses in the studio, my personal taste runs more to the flat KM-84s
than to the peakier KSM-37 or KSM-41, or for that matter Neumann's KM-184.
That's a matter of taste, though, not absolute quality; they're all very good
microphones, but microphones of different types.

Peace,
Paul

Fletcher wrote:


A pair of KM-184's? Eh. I wouldn't... I've become a huge fan of both the
Josephson C-42MP [which is a factory "matched" set] and the T.H.E "KP-6M"s
in that application.

Hey Fletcher, have you had a chance to check out the T.H.E. subcardioid capsule
from their modular condenser series (KR-2W I think) on acoustic guitar? To date
one of the best steel string guitar sounds I have ever encountered. It's not so
much "accurate" as it is "iconic" ...IOW, it sounds exactly like you remember
acoustic guitars sounding on your favorite records. Kinda bright, but with
incredible pitch definition in the midrange, & so little proximity effect that
you can cram it right up on the soundhole (if so desired) without all that mush
that makes other mics (& owners of said other mics) shy away from that area of
the instrument.

/Bob Ross

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message

Is it possible to get the mics close enough for this to work with a
broadband sound source?

Depends on the mike and the frequency you're talking about. With 77DXes,
you won't even come close. With small diaphragm condensers you can get
pretty close.

I'm pretty sure that it's impossible because of our inability to make 2 mics
occupy the identical same space at the same time.

Figure how long a quarter wave is at a given frequency and that's the distance
you're worried about. At 20 Khz it's pretty short.

I seriously doubt that a really broadband sound source like keys jangling
would even get you close.

High frequency stuff is more of a problem due to the short wavelength, but
pink noise will cancel remarkably well up to fairly high frequencies.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Ty Ford wrote:

my 1772 D 28S Martin

Probably a very rare and valuable geetar, that one...

--
ha

David Satz wrote:


They're polite, reasonable, service-oriented people; they're not in
business to offend their customers.

Really... not that I noticed...
--
Fletcher
Mercenary Audio
TEL: 508-543-0069
FAX: 508-543-9670
http://www.mercenary.com
"this is not a problem"

I wrote:

They [Neumann Berlin]'re polite, reasonable, service-oriented people;
they're not in business to offend their customers.

whereupon Fletcher wrote:

Really... not that I noticed...


I mainly use Schoeps microphones. I enjoy ongoing friendships (nearly
30 years in the most important instance) with people at Schoeps; I write
most of their English translations--and I'm positioned to know that even
_they_ think very highly of their colleagues at Neumann, though of course
it's mainly the folks in Germany with whom they have contact.

I also own several Neumann microphones, some of which I bought from your
company. From a customer's perspective I think that Neumann is a first-
rate organization, or nearly so--my one serious gripe being that I think
they charge too much for repair and replacement parts including capsules,
and for accessories in general. $300 shock mounts and $400 cables are a
symptom of irrational production and/or distribution methods in my book.

But even if Neumann were absolutely ideal from a customer's perspective,
that doesn't mean that being a dealer for them is any walk in the park.
It's just a whole other angle on an organization.

I never was able to find whatever you posted about your breakup with them,
so I don't know what you went through. I'd guess that it didn't make the
U.S. distributorship look very saintly. But you're not exactly known as
a naive soul yourself around here, and I gather that you came out of the
exchange with your dignity in good condition.

Is it not so?

--best regards

I bought two TLM 103 a few years back. I didn't pay extra for matching. Karl
Winkler said mics in the regular run were close enough to be considered so.
I believed him. I listened. I'm fine with it.


Now don't expect two TLM 103 (or any other Neumann mics) to be that close if
one spent 5 years in a pristine environment and the other in a small open
air studio on Bermuda.

Regards,

Ty Ford


For Ty Ford V/O demos, audio services and equipment reviews,
click on http://www.jagunet.com/~tford

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:znr1057245055k@trad...
In article writes:

The salesperson told me that tolerances in Neumann mics are
so close that there is no need to have a specially matched pair

He's full of ****... they don't "match" them period... at least for US
distribution they don't.

Until about a year ago, while they didn't actually "match" microphones
(for the above reason) they did package mics as a pair for a premium
price. Different case, different vibe. Not necessary, really, but the
customers asked, so they responded. I guess they eventually realized
that it was silly and they'd rather educate the customer and not be
bothered with the packaging and paperwork for a measly hundred bucks.

Mike, I'm trying to figure out what happend about a year ago... g

We still package most appropriate mics in stereo pairs:

2x KM 184 = SKM184 (two mics in wooden box)
2x KM 183 = SKM183 (two mics in wooden box)
2x TLM 103 = TLM 103/Z ST (two mics, shock mounts, cables in metal
case)
2x U 87 Ai = U87Ai/Z ST (two mics, shock mounts, cables in metal case)

And so on.
The difference in price between two mics (or two mics and acessories)
and the stereo sets reflects the cost of the case.

In terms of "educating" people about the general lack of need to
"match" our mics, we've always done our best. However, the message
doesn't always stick because there is so much talk about
"hand-matching" or "hand-selecting" microphones out there. Ours are
hand matched or hand selected as well, but not for pairs. And they are
also checked by various machines, depending on what stage of
production they are in, what type of testing is done, etc. For
instance, the U 87Ai gets tested more than 60 different ways during
manufacture. So, the outcome is that for most purposes, any two of our
mics of the same model are ready to be used as a stereo pair.

I have spoken to some specialists where, due to their specific use of
the mics, closer matching might be necessary. This was not because of
standard stereo recording of music... And up to several years ago,
Neumann Berlin would accomodate most requests for such matching.
However, the decision was made to stop providing this service due to a
variety of factors. Mike, is this to what you were referring?

The truth of the matter is that very few people order the more
expensive stereo sets, in large part, I suppose, due to the sheer cost
of those sets. However, we sell a good number of the 103 sets, and a
large portion of the KM 184s we sell are in the stereo sets.

Respectfully,

Karl Winkler

In article writes:

Until about a year ago, while they didn't actually "match" microphones
(for the above reason) they did package mics as a pair

Mike, I'm trying to figure out what happend about a year ago... g
We still package most appropriate mics in stereo pairs:

Probably some distortion in the publicity engine. Seems like I read
somewhere that the stereo packages were dropped. But it's been so long
since I could afford (or rather justify) buying a new Neumann mic that
I haven't been checking the price schedules.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )