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#1
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holographic soundstage?
What is the cause of the holographic soundstage? The push of amplifier
power, the positioning of speakers in a small room, the quality of the tweeter and mid bass driver, the quality of the recording separation and detail? I am using a Jolida 102b tube amp with a Jolida CD Silver Reference, moon silver coated interconnects with MIT Ter3 biwired speaker cables and Wharfedale Anniversary 8.1's. I am still breaking them in, but I am not getting the jutting soundstage that I'm seeking. I was using an Acurus Dia 100 and it did not make any difference enen though it was twice the power. My office is 6x9 drywall. |
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#2
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holographic soundstage?
In article ,
Philip Meech wrote: What is the cause of the holographic soundstage? The push of amplifier power, the positioning of speakers in a small room, the quality of the tweeter and mid bass driver, the quality of the recording separation and detail? What follows is my semi-informed opinion, not Gospel by any means. All of the above are probably contributors. The process of learning (yours - the listener's) is another part. Fundamentally, a "holographic soundstage" from a stereo source and stereo reproduction system is a psychoacoustic illusion. It's not actually possible for a stereo system to accurately reproduce the actual sound field of an orchestra or other sound source in 3-dimensional space. The stereo record-and-playback system will always introduce anomalies (e.g. delayed and reflected sound-paths) which weren't present in the original sound-field. [Picture the sound paths from the instruments to your ears, as if you were sitting in the original venue. Then, picture the sound paths from those instruments to any set of mikes, located wherever you choose, and then picture the paths from your stereo speakers to each of your ears. You'll see that there's no way to reproduce the original-venue sound paths with complete accuracy.] Creating a playback sound field which _seems_ three-dimensional to the human ear/brain systems is a tricky thing. From what I understand, it's partly a matter of providing sonic cues which promote the sense of a three-dimensional space larger than the listening room - e.g. a balance of direct and reflected sound present in the original venue, which conveys a sense of the size of the original venue. This particular cue system is one which comes via the original recording and mastering. Similarly, the recording ought to reflect the sonic characteristics of instruments which are "near" and "far" from the listener... in a real venue, instruments which are towards the back of the stage might have a different frequency balance (a bit more attenuation of the treble due to the distance), and the direct-path sound level from those instruments would be lower than for instruments towards the front of the stage. This will help create the proper illusion of depth. Once again, this is a matter for the original recording and the mastering. The playback and reproduction equipment should, I believe, generally try to be as honest as possible - not introducing its own sonic character any more than is strictly necessary. In particular, maintaining an even frequency balance (and dispersion, if possible) at a speaker's crossover point(s) can probably make a big difference in the naturalness of the soundstage. If there are abrupt changes in amplitude or in horizontal or vertical dispersion patterns of a speaker system at any frequency, an instrument may seem to "wander" in space as it plays up and down across the anomaly, or might seem to be stretched or pulled if (e.g.) the bass notes seemed to come from a different direction than the midrange or treble notes. This will tend to spoil the illusion. A speaker with abrupt horizontal or vertical lobing in its dispersion patterns may present other problems... an overly-small "sweet spot". If you move your head back and forth by a foot or so, you might find that the soundstage changes abruptly, with instruments seeming to "move around" in an unrealistic fashion. Speakers with a somewhat more even dispersion pattern might not have this problem. Speakers with low distortion levels, and wide dynamic-range capability probably do a better job than more limited speakers. The sounds of individual instruments will be less likely to interfere with one another (e.g. a bass-drum whack or tuba blatt won't cause the apparent character and position of a viola to wander). The amplifier is, I think, less critical. As long as it's got enough clean power to drive the speakers to the desired playback level without clipping or distorting, and has no other objectionable characteristics, then you'll probably be fine. More power probably won't help matters. Setting up the room so that you avoid excessive "early" reflections can be helpful... e.g. put a rug on the floor between you and the speakers, to tame any reflections from the floor. The brain can learn to ignore "early" reflections to some extent, but they might tend to spoil the illusion of having a coherent sound-field. Similarly, moving speakers around or experimenting with wall treatments may be beneficial in managing the inevitable reflections created by your room's walls. Finally, learning and training are probably quite important. When you "break in" a new stereo system (especially if it's in a new room) you are often breaking in your own ear/brain system as much as you're breaking in the equipment (or even more). Over time, your ear/brain system will adapt to the sound field being created by your system - it can learn to ignore some of the anomalies created by your listening room and equipment, and pick out those characteristics of the sound field which create the satisfying perceptual illusion you're looking for. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
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#3
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holographic soundstage?
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#4
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holographic soundstage?
Bromo wrote:
On 4/19/04 10:13 PM, in article , "Philip Meech" wrote: What is the cause of the holographic soundstage? The push of amplifier power, the positioning of speakers in a small room, the quality of the tweeter and mid bass driver, the quality of the recording separation and detail? YES! Illusion that it may be (since the goal of an audio enthusiast is to create a convincing illusion of the band being *right there*) - it is all these things. I think also the element of being "drawn in" to a favorite piece of music and being amazed at the detail and the sound of a once familiar piece of music! I have achieved 'holographic' imaging with modest equipment -- NAD integrated amp, NHT speakers, Pioneer CD changer -- so I conclude that it's mainly down to speaker placement/room treatment, since I only ever achieved it by altering these (for nearfield listening). -- -S. "They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason." -- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director |
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#6
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holographic soundstage?
"Steven Sullivan" wrote in message
... Bromo wrote: On 4/19/04 10:13 PM, in article , "Philip Meech" wrote: What is the cause of the holographic soundstage? The push of amplifier power, the positioning of speakers in a small room, the quality of the tweeter and mid bass driver, the quality of the recording separation and detail? YES! Illusion that it may be (since the goal of an audio enthusiast is to create a convincing illusion of the band being *right there*) - it is all these things. I think also the element of being "drawn in" to a favorite piece of music and being amazed at the detail and the sound of a once familiar piece of music! I have achieved 'holographic' imaging with modest equipment -- NAD integrated amp, NHT speakers, Pioneer CD changer -- so I conclude that it's mainly down to speaker placement/room treatment, since I only ever achieved it by altering these (for nearfield listening). I concur with Steve on this. I have taken exactly the same audio gear into different environments. In one, with careful placement and room treatment, I was able to achieve this effect. I've also heard it at a friends house, and in two dealer show rooms. In all these cases we were pretty much dealing with dedicated listening rooms where conventional constraints did not have to apply. |
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#7
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holographic soundstage?
I think the most important factors are phase and frequency response, and the
matching of responses between channels. If there is a phase shift, the instruments (or voice) do not seem focussed. Bass and treble appear to be coming from different points. Most high end speakers have driver pairs accurately matched which helps further to focus the object. Of course room factors have an effect. But for my tastes I prefer a completely inert well damped room. Some people try to create ambience in the listening room. I think it should be created at the recording stage. In this regard I am constantly amazed how many hi-fi stores (at least in australia) have very poor listening environments. One would think that the dealers don't want to sell their equipment. They are so poorly set up. Alex "Philip Meech" wrote in message ... What is the cause of the holographic soundstage? The push of amplifier power, the positioning of speakers in a small room, the quality of the tweeter and mid bass driver, the quality of the recording separation and detail? I am using a Jolida 102b tube amp with a Jolida CD Silver Reference, moon silver coated interconnects with MIT Ter3 biwired speaker cables and Wharfedale Anniversary 8.1's. I am still breaking them in, but I am not getting the jutting soundstage that I'm seeking. I was using an Acurus Dia 100 and it did not make any difference enen though it was twice the power. My office is 6x9 drywall. |
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#8
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holographic soundstage?
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#9
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holographic soundstage?
"Alex" wrote in message ...
I think the most important factors are phase and frequency response, and the matching of responses between channels. If there is a phase shift, the instruments (or voice) do not seem focussed. Bass and treble appear to be coming from different points. Most high end speakers have driver pairs accurately matched which helps further to focus the object. Of course room factors have an effect. But for my tastes I prefer a completely inert well damped room. Some people try to create ambience in the listening room. I think it should be created at the recording stage. In this regard I am constantly amazed how many hi-fi stores (at least in australia) have very poor listening environments. One would think that the dealers don't want to sell their equipment. They are so poorly set up. Alex In my own experiments, damping is best suited against the wall where the speakers are, and the floor. This "opens up" the room, creating an artificial stage extending behind the wall where the recording ambience can be heard. The other half of the room is in my ears better with som reflections and not so much damping. In surround sound or matrix decoding, reflections would be more important to create a "diffuse field", but can be compensated for by using multiple surround speakers. T |
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#10
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holographic soundstage?
My personal experience is that it's mainly a matter of geometry and
avoiding the distortions that Mr. Platt mentions in his post. For instance, I have created quite a good soundstage with car speakers and a cheap amp in several rooms just by making an equilateral triangle of the speakers and my listening seat and sitting in the near field to avoid reflections. I've created the same thing at my bath room sink. With a pair of powered computer speakers, a portable CD player and careful placement the stage seems to start a fair distance behind the mirror. These are pretty cheap, unrecognized brand name speakers and a cheap RCA player that I got as a 10 year "reward" from my company. I did the same thing in a friend's home, and then he moved the stuff back where he had it because he LIKED boomy bass with the speakers in the corner of the room. How GOOD everything sounds is heavily dependent on all the othe stuff you mention. Just try creating an equilateral triangle with your speakers and your "own self", as they say for the soundstage. You may be surprised. -- Bob T. Philip Meech wrote: What is the cause of the holographic soundstage? The push of amplifier power, the positioning of speakers in a small room, the quality of the tweeter and mid bass driver, the quality of the recording separation and detail? I am using a Jolida 102b tube amp with a Jolida CD Silver Reference, moon silver coated interconnects with MIT Ter3 biwired speaker cables and Wharfedale Anniversary 8.1's. I am still breaking them in, but I am not getting the jutting soundstage that I'm seeking. I was using an Acurus Dia 100 and it did not make any difference enen though it was twice the power. My office is 6x9 drywall. |
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