[[email protected]]

Hello, all-

I'm looking for recommendations for permanent-installation multicore
cable for audio recording. Our performing arts center is being
renovated, and we're planning some infrastructure to allow centralized
recording of performances and rehearsals in seven spaces.

The runs are on the order of from 250 to around 1000 feet in a
combination of conduit (audio by itself) and cable trays alongside
multiple ethernet (on CAT 5E) and fire system cables. While there is
conduit on some runs, it doesn't go the whole way. There is always
data nearby somewhere.

Though it's better to transmit line level over such distances, I want
to locate the mike preamps in the central recording control room to
simplify patching. I want 16 channels of very high quality cable (such
as Gepco's "X-Band") going everywhere, and an additional 32 channels
of the regular stuff to our large hall and large rehearsal room.

My main questions are these:

1. How worried should I be about RF or other interference from the
data lines, which could conceivably lay alongside my mike lines?

2. Is there any advantage to using 110 ohm cable due to its lower
capacitance?

3. Do you recommend snake from a particular manufacturer?

4. Have I left out anything?

Thanks!

-Matt Champagne

[Paul Stamler]

wrote in message
ps.com...

2. Is there any advantage to using 110 ohm cable due to its lower
capacitance?

If, at some point, you decide to change your mind, put preamps on the stage,
and connect them via digital links, 110 ohm cable would be ready for you.

Peace,
Paul

[Richard Crowley]

wrote ...
I'm looking for recommendations for permanent-installation multicore
cable for audio recording. Our performing arts center is being
renovated, and we're planning some infrastructure to allow centralized
recording of performances and rehearsals in seven spaces.

The runs are on the order of from 250 to around 1000 feet in a
combination of conduit (audio by itself) and cable trays alongside
multiple ethernet (on CAT 5E) and fire system cables. While there is
conduit on some runs, it doesn't go the whole way. There is always
data nearby somewhere.

Though it's better to transmit line level over such distances, I want
to locate the mike preamps in the central recording control room to
simplify patching. I want 16 channels of very high quality cable (such
as Gepco's "X-Band") going everywhere, and an additional 32 channels
of the regular stuff to our large hall and large rehearsal room.

My main questions are these:

1. How worried should I be about RF or other interference from the
data lines, which could conceivably lay alongside my mike lines?

Cat-5 is precision balanced and poses much less threat
than light dimmers, etc. IME. I've never had a problem with
crosstalk from adjacent Cat-5. OTOH, I would try to avoid
routing mic-level pair and Cat-5 over a long run in the same
conduit. But in a tray, you can always put the data and alarm
cables on one side and the audio on the other.

Might be beneficial to make the audio pair a distinct sheath
color to easily distinguish vs. data cable. The fire alarm cable
will likely be red.

2. Is there any advantage to using 110 ohm cable due to
its lower capacitance?

An even bigger advantage is to future-proof the installation
for conversion to digital, etc.

3. Do you recommend snake from a particular manufacturer?

My preference would be to pull individual install-grade
shielded pair (vs. multi-pair "snake" cable) See the other
discussion named "Doug Sax on wire"

Individual pair is likely cheaper, easier to pull, more familiar
to the trades people who will be installing it (similar to CAT5,
etc.), easier to repair or replace broken pair, wider selection
of cable types, etc.

Another advantage of individual pair is that it is easier to
pull in a few spares to cover failure, or to support intercom,
foldback, etc.

4. Have I left out anything?

If you are recording remotely, certainly provide something
for remote viewing (survelience-grade TV cameras, etc.)
Most of the modern ones can use Cat-5, but RG59 coax
might be safer/quieter adjacent to mic pair.

[Scott Dorsey]

wrote:
The runs are on the order of from 250 to around 1000 feet in a
combination of conduit (audio by itself) and cable trays alongside
multiple ethernet (on CAT 5E) and fire system cables. While there is
conduit on some runs, it doesn't go the whole way. There is always
data nearby somewhere.

What is this "data?" Is it ethernet over cat-5, or something different?

Though it's better to transmit line level over such distances, I want
to locate the mike preamps in the central recording control room to
simplify patching. I want 16 channels of very high quality cable (such
as Gepco's "X-Band") going everywhere, and an additional 32 channels
of the regular stuff to our large hall and large rehearsal room.

That's fine.

My main questions are these:

1. How worried should I be about RF or other interference from the
data lines, which could conceivably lay alongside my mike lines?

Depends on what the data lines are and how close they are.

2. Is there any advantage to using 110 ohm cable due to its lower
capacitance?

Most mike cable is 110 ohm. What you get from the AES/EBU cable is
better control of diameter and spacing, so you know the impedance
really is 110 ohm. This isn't very important today, but could be
important in the future, and it doesn't cost much more, so go ahead
and do it.

It doesn't necessarily have lower capacitance than other types, although
it will have lower capacitance than some.

3. Do you recommend snake from a particular manufacturer?

Gepco is fine. So are Belden, Canare, Gotham, and Mogami. Make sure to
use foil shields for anything that is permanently installed, make sure
to get an overall shield, and make sure to get bids from all the common
manufacturers so you don't pay more than you have to.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Fletch]

On Nov 2, 8:21 am, " wrote:
Hello, all-

I'm looking for recommendations for permanent-installation multicore
cable for audio recording. Our performing arts center is being
renovated, and we're planning some infrastructure to allow centralized
recording of performances and rehearsals in seven spaces.

The runs are on the order of from 250 to around 1000 feet in a
combination of conduit (audio by itself) and cable trays alongside
multiple ethernet (on CAT 5E) and fire system cables. While there is
conduit on some runs, it doesn't go the whole way. There is always
data nearby somewhere.

Though it's better to transmit line level over such distances, I want
to locate the mike preamps in the central recording control room to
simplify patching. I want 16 channels of very high quality cable (such
as Gepco's "X-Band") going everywhere, and an additional 32 channels
of the regular stuff to our large hall and large rehearsal room.

My main questions are these:

1. How worried should I be about RF or other interference from the
data lines, which could conceivably lay alongside my mike lines?

2. Is there any advantage to using 110 ohm cable due to its lower
capacitance?

3. Do you recommend snake from a particular manufacturer?

4. Have I left out anything?

Thanks!

-Matt Champagne


I might recommend going with the new digital snakes that are beginning
to appear. Whirlwind makes one. They're pricey, but you should avoid
much of the trouble of RF, and the runs can be on the order of over
300 meters before any deprication occurs.

Check them out.

--Fletch

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 15:21:54 -0000, "
wrote:

I'm looking for recommendations for permanent-installation multicore
cable for audio recording. Our performing arts center is being
renovated, and we're planning some infrastructure to allow centralized
recording of performances and rehearsals in seven spaces.

Great recommendations already, so I'll just add my personal
experience in a much smaller venue:

Double or triple your current estimate of *any* structural
wiring. Then think about future expansion for more video.
And then more. And that's for a technology-averse house.

Provision for audio, and especially video, offstage and
backstage seems silly now but will seem essential to
passing directors tomorrow (if not yesterday). Many
modern rooms actually have poor hearing and sight cues
for offstage performers, so there's some reason to it.

"Foldback" is commonly needed in two to four offstage
locations in even a small one-main-room all-acoustic opry
theater, just for an example. Everyone needs to both
hear the band and to see the conductor's face and baton.

And modern staging is increasingly demanding of technological
aids. Not to say marital aids, but that too! It'll just
get worse, guaran-durned-teed.

Thanks for a great thread,

Chris Hornbeck

[Scott Dorsey]

Chris Hornbeck wrote:

Double or triple your current estimate of *any* structural
wiring. Then think about future expansion for more video.
And then more. And that's for a technology-averse house.

Absolutely! I think the secret here, especially if you are on a budget right
now, is conduit. Lots of conduit, going everywhere. Big conduit. Bigger
than you think you'd ever need, and bigger than that. It doesn't cost much
more to install huge oversized conduit now, and twenty years down the road
when you need it, you'll find it will cost a lot more money then.

Provision for audio, and especially video, offstage and
backstage seems silly now but will seem essential to
passing directors tomorrow (if not yesterday). Many
modern rooms actually have poor hearing and sight cues
for offstage performers, so there's some reason to it.

Note that nobody really knows what the video formats a couple decades down
the road are going to be like, and video changes are coming down the pike
quickly with the coming of HDTV. So run plenty of 75 ohm foamcore but leave
space for something else further on down the road.

"Foldback" is commonly needed in two to four offstage
locations in even a small one-main-room all-acoustic opry
theater, just for an example. Everyone needs to both
hear the band and to see the conductor's face and baton.

I thought that was what the shell was for?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

On 2007-11-03 (ScottDorsey) said:

Absolutely! I think the secret here, especially if you are on a
budget right now, is conduit. Lots of conduit, going everywhere.
Big conduit. Bigger than you think you'd ever need, and bigger
than that. It doesn't cost much more to install huge oversized
conduit now, and twenty years down the road when you need it,
you'll find it will cost a lot more money then.
WHIle you're at it run a couple of just regular lines down
that conduit to make fishing those additional cables you'll
need later on. Just attach it to the line and pull it
through g.

Note that nobody really knows what the video formats a couple
decades down the road are going to be like, and video changes are
coming down the pike quickly with the coming of HDTV. So run
plenty of 75 ohm foamcore but leave space for something else
further on down the road.
I'd agree with this as well.



Richard webb,
Replace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real
email address.



Great audio is never heard by the average person, but bad
audio is heard by everyone.

[Chris Hornbeck]

On 3 Nov 2007 08:15:14 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

"Foldback" is commonly needed in two to four offstage
locations in even a small one-main-room all-acoustic opry
theater, just for an example. Everyone needs to both
hear the band and to see the conductor's face and baton.

I thought that was what the shell was for?

Arf! Out here in the boonies, directors will also want to
put performers in the wings and behind the audience, and
God Herself only knows where next. In the pit? - happened.
Cat walk? - not yet, but...

But we're a thrust stage, no proscenium, no fly loft, so
maybe a little non-traditional staging is allowed to fester,
er, grow, here and might infest, er, flower, elsewhere.
Be afraid, be very - just kidding, it's fun. But lotsa
wires!

Love your ideas about conduit. Maybe lay two; one for now,
and one capped and labeled "Open in 2025". Turned out that
Wildwood had *none* - major bummer but life went on.

Much thanks, as always,

Chris Hornbeck

[videochas www.locoworks.com]

Love your ideas about conduit. Maybe lay two; one for now,
and one capped and labeled "Open in 2025". Turned out that
Wildwood had *none* - major bummer but life went on.

Much thanks, as always,

Chris Hornbeck

The chief engineer who designed the antenna farm for a station I
worked for cheaped out and ran only one conduit, which was outgrown in
five years, necessitating a trench through a busy street. No end of
trouble! Make 'em big and make 'em plentiful.

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Sat, 03 Nov 2007 20:44:06 -0700, "videochas www.locoworks.com"
wrote:

The chief engineer who designed the antenna farm for a station I
worked for cheaped out and ran only one conduit, which was outgrown in
five years, necessitating a trench through a busy street. No end of
trouble! Make 'em big and make 'em plentiful.

And! Richard's reminder is even more important the bigger things
get: pull-wires! Folks talk pretty casually about vacuum-ing
things through conduit, but that was back in the book of Genesis.
After the book of Exodus mostly nothing fits into the conduit
except a really small and really lucky piece of metal wire.

I actually spent some glorious time this past week, along with
a co-glorious-dayjob-worker, on our backs, feet braced against a
concrete foundation, pulling for all our might to get a very
few extra wires through the conduit, along side too many others,
in a private residence. And this building even belonged to sensible
people who have to pay with their own money - theater is much worse!

Babbling, sorry. Much thanks, as always,

Chris Hornbeck

[Arny Krueger]

wrote in message
.. .

On 2007-11-03 (ScottDorsey) said:

Absolutely! I think the secret here, especially if you are on a
budget right now, is conduit. Lots of conduit, going everywhere.
Big conduit. Bigger than you think you'd ever need, and bigger
than that. It doesn't cost much more to install huge oversized
conduit now, and twenty years down the road when you need it,
you'll find it will cost a lot more money then.
WHIle you're at it run a couple of just regular lines down
that conduit to make fishing those additional cables you'll
need later on. Just attach it to the line and pull it
through g.

Note that nobody really knows what the video formats a couple
decades down the road are going to be like, and video changes are
coming down the pike quickly with the coming of HDTV. So run
plenty of 75 ohm foamcore but leave space for something else
further on down the road.
I'd agree with this as well.

Be sure to leave a heavy cord in the pipe for the next time you want to pull
more wire.

[David Gravereaux]

The guy that owned the recording studio where I got my first pro tech job
decided to play a joke on me and asked me to go down to the electrical supply
store and get some cable pulling compound.. But he didn't call it that..

So I get down to the supply place and ask for a bottle of "duct butter".

The guys there had a huge laugh. So did my boss when I got back.

--
David Gravereaux
[species:human; planet:earth,milkyway(western spiral arm),alpha sector]



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[Richard Crowley]

"David Gravereaux" wrote ...
The guy that owned the recording studio where I got my
first pro tech job decided to play a joke on me and asked
me to go down to the electrical supply store and get some
cable pulling compound.. But he didn't call it that..

So I get down to the supply place and ask for a bottle of "duct
butter".

The guys there had a huge laugh. So did my boss when I got back.

LOL! :-)
OTOH, one of the major brands was yellow and very slippery.

[videochas www.locoworks.com]

LOL! :-)
OTOH, one of the major brands was yellow and very slippery.

We called it "gorilla snot". We had class.

[Paul Stamler]

"videochas www.locoworks.com" wrote in message
s.com...

LOL! :-)
OTOH, one of the major brands was yellow and very slippery.

We called it "gorilla snot". We had class.

Here we called it "slick dick". You get sufficiently used to something, you
forget what impact it'll have on the uninitiated. Pulling cable, yelling to
George, "Hey, you got the slick dick?" Heads turning all through the office.

Peace,
Paul

[Arny Krueger]

"Paul Stamler" wrote in message
...
"videochas www.locoworks.com" wrote in message
s.com...

LOL! :-)
OTOH, one of the major brands was yellow and very slippery.

We called it "gorilla snot". We had class.

Here we called it "slick dick". You get sufficiently used to something,
you
forget what impact it'll have on the uninitiated. Pulling cable, yelling
to
George, "Hey, you got the slick dick?" Heads turning all through the
office.

I'm familiar with "cable snot".

BTW, pulling cables is one place where sloppy seconds are a good thing! ;-)

[Jason]

In article ,
says...
On 3 Nov 2007 08:15:14 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

"Foldback" is commonly needed in two to four offstage
locations in even a small one-main-room all-acoustic opry
theater, just for an example. Everyone needs to both
hear the band and to see the conductor's face and baton.

I thought that was what the shell was for?

Arf! Out here in the boonies, directors will also want to
put performers in the wings and behind the audience, and
God Herself only knows where next. In the pit? - happened.
Cat walk? - not yet, but...

But we're a thrust stage, no proscenium, no fly loft, so
maybe a little non-traditional staging is allowed to fester,
er, grow, here and might infest, er, flower, elsewhere.
Be afraid, be very - just kidding, it's fun. But lotsa
wires!

Love your ideas about conduit. Maybe lay two; one for now,
and one capped and labeled "Open in 2025". Turned out that
Wildwood had *none* - major bummer but life went on.

Much thanks, as always,

Chris Hornbeck



Is the Axia gear that broadcasters use which multiplexes everything on
gigabit Ethernet a candidate? I've seen it in use in radio stations.
Perhaps it's too specialized for that application...?

--
reverse my name in email address