[adam79]

I got a quick question about Mic Pres.. I have an MBox2 as my audio
interface into the computer. the mic pre on the mBox2 isn't very
impressive; it doesn't even have the gain to run a SM-57 thru it without
distortion. I also have a Mackie 1202 VLZ-PRO. The Mic Pre's on the
mixer can handle 60dB of gain. Now I have to figure out how to bypass
the mBox2 pre so I can have a distortion free recording. If I run the
main outputs of the mixer into the mBox2's line input, or run a balanced
1/4" from the insert track to the line in on the MBox2 will I get what I
want (a distortion free recording)?

Thanks,
-Adam

[Mike Rivers]

On Oct 15, 8:38 pm, adam79 wrote:

the mic pre on the mBox2 isn't very
impressive; it doesn't even have the gain to run a SM-57 thru it without
distortion.

This does not compute. You can get distortion if you have too much
gain, not too little gain. Can you clarify your problem? You must be
doing something wrong.

I also have a Mackie 1202 VLZ-PRO. The Mic Pre's on the
mixer can handle 60dB of gain.

They don't "handle" gain, they provide gain.

Now I have to figure out how to bypass
the mBox2 pre so I can have a distortion free recording. If I run the
main outputs of the mixer into the mBox2's line input, or run a balanced
1/4" from the insert track to the line in on the MBox2 will I get what I
want (a distortion free recording)?

There's no reason why you shouldn't be able to get a distortion-free
recording by connecting the mic directly to the mic input of the M-
Box, unless it's broken (and it might be). You can connect the insert
output of the Mackie to the Line Input of the M-Box, but this may not
actually bypass the mic preamp. It's pretty common on devices like the
M-Box (and on the Mackie VLZ-Pro as well) for the line input to be
simply an attenuator ahead of the mic input, so the signal goes
through the mic preamp circuit.

But try it. If you still have distortion, either you're still doing
something wrong or your M-box is busted.

[Arny Krueger]

"adam79" wrote in message
...
I got a quick question about Mic Pres.. I have an MBox2 as my audio
interface into the computer. the mic pre on the mBox2 isn't very
impressive; it doesn't even have the gain to run a SM-57 thru it without
distortion.

That statement doesn't make sense. Do you mean to say that the mBox2 lacks
the gain to handle a SM-57 without noise?

[hank alrich]

adam79 wrote:

I got a quick question about Mic Pres.. I have an MBox2 as my audio
interface into the computer. the mic pre on the mBox2 isn't very
impressive; it doesn't even have the gain to run a SM-57 thru it without
distortion.

This is not correct, nevermind that the MBox isn't a great preamp. But
something is amiss in your gain staging if you cannot get clean signal
through it from a properly working SM57.

I also have a Mackie 1202 VLZ-PRO. The Mic Pre's on the
mixer can handle 60dB of gain. Now I have to figure out how to bypass
the mBox2 pre so I can have a distortion free recording. If I run the
main outputs of the mixer into the mBox2's line input, or run a balanced
1/4" from the insert track to the line in on the MBox2 will I get what I
want (a distortion free recording)?

You won't get what you want unless you figure out gain staging. That
said, if you run from the insert to the MBox line input you bypass the
rest of the mixer circuitry, and that is a good thing to do.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Paul Stamler]

"adam79" wrote in message
...
I got a quick question about Mic Pres.. I have an MBox2 as my audio
interface into the computer. the mic pre on the mBox2 isn't very
impressive; it doesn't even have the gain to run a SM-57 thru it without
distortion. I also have a Mackie 1202 VLZ-PRO. The Mic Pre's on the
mixer can handle 60dB of gain. Now I have to figure out how to bypass
the mBox2 pre so I can have a distortion free recording. If I run the
main outputs of the mixer into the mBox2's line input, or run a balanced
1/4" from the insert track to the line in on the MBox2 will I get what I
want (a distortion free recording)?

Yes. But there's something wrong with your question: you say the MBox2
"doesn't even have the gain to run a SM-57 thru it without distortion".
Usually things clip when they have too much gain, not too little. Is the
problem that you can't turn the MBox2's gain down far enough to avoid
distortion? If that's the case, then a pad would fix the problem.

What are you miking with the SM57?

Peace,
Paul

[Matt Ion]

Mike Rivers wrote:
On Oct 15, 8:38 pm, adam79 wrote:

the mic pre on the mBox2 isn't very
impressive; it doesn't even have the gain to run a SM-57 thru it without
distortion.

This does not compute. You can get distortion if you have too much
gain, not too little gain. Can you clarify your problem? You must be
doing something wrong.

I think he's confusing "gain" with "headroom".

If the Mbox doesn't have the headroom to handle the SM-57's signal, you
certainly can run it through the 1202 first, and feed the Mbox from a
channel insert, channel output, buss output, aux send, master output,
tape out, etc.

[Mike Rivers]

On Oct 16, 2:39 am, Matt Ion wrote:

I think he's confusing "gain" with "headroom".

Naw, he's doing something wrong or his M-Box is broken. Both are
distinct possibilities.

How can a mic preamp with a built-in A/D converter have insufficient
headroom. They're practically all calibrated so that the analog stage
just barely doesn't clip when the A/D reaches full scale. If it
distorts, all he has to do is turn down the input gain, move the mic
further away, or sing quieter.

[Scott Dorsey]

adam79 wrote:
I got a quick question about Mic Pres.. I have an MBox2 as my audio
interface into the computer. the mic pre on the mBox2 isn't very
impressive; it doesn't even have the gain to run a SM-57 thru it without
distortion.

Huh? What do you mean by that? Distortion is more often caused by too
much gain, not too little gain.

I also have a Mackie 1202 VLZ-PRO. The Mic Pre's on the
mixer can handle 60dB of gain. Now I have to figure out how to bypass
the mBox2 pre so I can have a distortion free recording. If I run the
main outputs of the mixer into the mBox2's line input, or run a balanced
1/4" from the insert track to the line in on the MBox2 will I get what I
want (a distortion free recording)?

Maybe, but where is this distortion coming from in the first place?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[adam79]

Matt Ion wrote:
Mike Rivers wrote:
This does not compute. You can get distortion if you have too much
gain, not too little gain. Can you clarify your problem? You must be
doing something wrong.

I think he's confusing "gain" with "headroom".

If the Mbox doesn't have the headroom to handle the SM-57's signal, you
certainly can run it through the 1202 first, and feed the Mbox from a
channel insert, channel output, buss output, aux send, master output,
tape out, etc.

I phrased some stuff wrong. sorry to those of you that complained about
my incorrect lingo. anyway, this message was provoked by a previous post
where I was told that the dynamic range (i think that's the right
term) of the mbox preamp doesn't have the headroom for even an sm-57
(the mbox pre is rated at 52dB and the SM-57 is 54dB).. hopefully i'm
using the correct terms. anyways, i checked out the specs on my mackie
1202 vlzpro, and the mic pre can handle 60dB. so i figured I'd use the
mackie just for the preamp, either bail from the mixer right away
through the insert, or send the signal from the mixer's main out. either
way, when i send the signal to the mbox i plug it into the line (trs)
input, right? then i'd still have the 60dB headroom, or whatever it's
called. correct? This is what I was trying to ask in my original post.

Thanks for the help, I appreciate it,
-Adam

[Arny Krueger]

"adam79" wrote in message
...
\
I phrased some stuff wrong. sorry to those of you that complained about my
incorrect lingo. anyway, this message was provoked by a previous post
where I was told that the dynamic range (i think that's the right term) of
the mbox preamp doesn't have the headroom for even an sm-57 (the mbox pre
is rated at 52dB and the SM-57 is 54dB)..

You're comparing apples and oranges and applying them to potatoes.

A Shure SM-57 puts out a signal that is -56.0 dBV/Pa. Pa stands for Pascal,
which is a measure of air pressure. Also note the minus sign.

The spec of a MBox2 that relates to 52 dB is gain, which is not at all the
same as an output signal from a mic.

hopefully i'm using the correct terms. anyways, i checked out the specs
on my mackie 1202 vlzpro, and the mic pre can handle 60dB.

The spec of a 1202 vlzpro that relates to 60 dB is also gain, which is again
not at all the same as an output signal from a mic.

None of the specs you gave are the same as dynamic range. That's what I mean
by "You're comparing apples and oranges and applying them to potatoes." None
of the items you are comparing relate to each other.

As a practical matter, there is generally no problem interfacing SM57
microphones to either an MBox2 or a 1202. In some applications the output
of a SM57 may be a bit on the low side, so the additional 8 dB gain of the
1202 might be a slight advantage.

In no case should a SM57 drive a 1202 or a MBox2 into distortion in a way
that you can't address with normal adjustments of their preamp gain or input
trim controls.

[Paul Stamler]

"adam79" wrote in message
...

I phrased some stuff wrong. sorry to those of you that complained about
my incorrect lingo. anyway, this message was provoked by a previous post
where I was told that the dynamic range (i think that's the right
term) of the mbox preamp doesn't have the headroom for even an sm-57
(the mbox pre is rated at 52dB and the SM-57 is 54dB).. hopefully i'm
using the correct terms. anyways, i checked out the specs on my mackie
1202 vlzpro, and the mic pre can handle 60dB. so i figured I'd use the
mackie just for the preamp, either bail from the mixer right away
through the insert, or send the signal from the mixer's main out. either
way, when i send the signal to the mbox i plug it into the line (trs)
input, right? then i'd still have the 60dB headroom, or whatever it's
called. correct? This is what I was trying to ask in my original post.

I'm afraid you're hopelessly muddled. Saying "The mbox pre is rated at 52dB
and the SM-57 is 54dB" is essentially meaningless. 52dB what? 54dB what?
You're getting a whole bunch of specifications mixed up with one another,
some of which aren't useful to begin with?

Let's start from the top. You say your recordings with the SM57 and MBox are
distorted. What are you miking with the SM57?

Peace,
Paul

[Mike Rivers]

On Oct 16, 5:50 pm, adam79 wrote:

this message was provoked by a previous post
where I was told that the dynamic range (i think that's the right
term) of the mbox preamp doesn't have the headroom for even an sm-57
(the mbox pre is rated at 52dB and the SM-57 is 54dB).

Not only are you using the numbers incorrectly, but it's not logical
to say that the MBox doesn't have the headroom for "even" an SM-57. It
might not have the input gain range (how far you can turn it down) to
record a kick drum with an SM-57 1 inch from the beater without
distorting. That could be interpreted (very liberally) by saying that
it doesn't have sufficient headroom. But you can fix that easily by
putting an attenuator in line between the mic and the preamp. However,
it certainly has enough gain range so that, when set properly, you can
record any reasonable voice or guitar or saxophone with an SM-57.

i checked out the specs on my mackie
1202 vlzpro, and the mic pre can handle 60dB

No, that's not what it says. It says that the mic preamp has 60 dB of
gain. It can also handle a maximum input level of +22 dBU. So with the
gain control turned all the way down, it probably can handle an SM-57
an inch away from a kick drum beater. It just means that the control
can go DOWN further than the similar control on the M-Box.

so i figured I'd use the
mackie just for the preamp, either bail from the mixer right away
through the insert, or send the signal from the mixer's main out.

OK, you have the Mackie, you'd have to go out and buy an attenuator.
What is it that your'e recording that you're distorting with the gain
turned all the way down on the M-Box? They put those knobs there for
you to adjust, not to leave in one place, you know.

You'd do well to study a very good free good publication from Mackie,
the Compact Mixer Reference Guide, free for the downloading, or you
can order a printed copy:

http://www.mackie.com/support/compactmixer/index.html

[Scott Dorsey]

adam79 wrote:
I phrased some stuff wrong. sorry to those of you that complained about
my incorrect lingo. anyway, this message was provoked by a previous post
where I was told that the dynamic range (i think that's the right
term) of the mbox preamp doesn't have the headroom for even an sm-57
(the mbox pre is rated at 52dB and the SM-57 is 54dB).. hopefully i'm
using the correct terms.

So spend twenty bucks and buy a 15 dB pad to stick between the mike and
the preamp, and voila, 15 dB more headroom. No problem.

anyways, i checked out the specs on my mackie
1202 vlzpro, and the mic pre can handle 60dB. so i figured I'd use the
mackie just for the preamp, either bail from the mixer right away
through the insert, or send the signal from the mixer's main out. either
way, when i send the signal to the mbox i plug it into the line (trs)
input, right? then i'd still have the 60dB headroom, or whatever it's
called. correct? This is what I was trying to ask in my original post.

I'm not sure what the problem you're trying to solve really is. When
you speak or sing into the microphone, what distortion are you hearing
that you don't like? Is it on peaks, or at low levels?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[hank alrich]

adam79 wrote:

Matt Ion wrote:
Mike Rivers wrote:
This does not compute. You can get distortion if you have too much
gain, not too little gain. Can you clarify your problem? You must be
doing something wrong.

I think he's confusing "gain" with "headroom".

If the Mbox doesn't have the headroom to handle the SM-57's signal, you
certainly can run it through the 1202 first, and feed the Mbox from a
channel insert, channel output, buss output, aux send, master output,
tape out, etc.

I phrased some stuff wrong. sorry to those of you that complained about
my incorrect lingo. anyway, this message was provoked by a previous post
where I was told that the dynamic range (i think that's the right
term) of the mbox preamp doesn't have the headroom for even an sm-57
(the mbox pre is rated at 52dB and the SM-57 is 54dB).. hopefully i'm
using the correct terms. anyways, i checked out the specs on my mackie
1202 vlzpro, and the mic pre can handle 60dB. so i figured I'd use the
mackie just for the preamp, either bail from the mixer right away
through the insert, or send the signal from the mixer's main out. either
way, when i send the signal to the mbox i plug it into the line (trs)
input, right? then i'd still have the 60dB headroom, or whatever it's
called. correct? This is what I was trying to ask in my original post.

Thanks for the help, I appreciate it,
-Adam

Adam,

Please communicate what you are trying to record, how you're placing the
mic, what your control settings are, and so forth.

Also, I'm going to suggest you read the rec.audio.pro FAQ, which while
out of date on several fronts, like what's the best cheap mic or the
latest whizbang digital goodie, is loaded with good info about basic
terminology and concepts of gain, headroom mic sensitivity, and so
forth. I think reading it will help you considerably. You can find it
at:

http://www.recaudiopro.net/




--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Ty Ford]

On Tue, 16 Oct 2007 21:00:03 -0400, hank alrich wrote
(in article ):

adam79 wrote:

Matt Ion wrote:
Mike Rivers wrote:
This does not compute. You can get distortion if you have too much
gain, not too little gain. Can you clarify your problem? You must be
doing something wrong.

I think he's confusing "gain" with "headroom".

If the Mbox doesn't have the headroom to handle the SM-57's signal, you
certainly can run it through the 1202 first, and feed the Mbox from a
channel insert, channel output, buss output, aux send, master output,
tape out, etc.

I phrased some stuff wrong. sorry to those of you that complained about
my incorrect lingo. anyway, this message was provoked by a previous post
where I was told that the dynamic range (i think that's the right
term) of the mbox preamp doesn't have the headroom for even an sm-57
(the mbox pre is rated at 52dB and the SM-57 is 54dB).. hopefully i'm
using the correct terms. anyways, i checked out the specs on my mackie
1202 vlzpro, and the mic pre can handle 60dB. so i figured I'd use the
mackie just for the preamp, either bail from the mixer right away
through the insert, or send the signal from the mixer's main out. either
way, when i send the signal to the mbox i plug it into the line (trs)
input, right? then i'd still have the 60dB headroom, or whatever it's
called. correct? This is what I was trying to ask in my original post.

Thanks for the help, I appreciate it,
-Adam

Adam,

Please communicate what you are trying to record, how you're placing the
mic, what your control settings are, and so forth.

Also, I'm going to suggest you read the rec.audio.pro FAQ, which while
out of date on several fronts, like what's the best cheap mic or the
latest whizbang digital goodie, is loaded with good info about basic
terminology and concepts of gain, headroom mic sensitivity, and so
forth. I think reading it will help you considerably. You can find it
at:

http://www.recaudiopro.net/


RTFFAQ?

Ty Ford

--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU

[adam79]

Mike Rivers wrote:


You'd do well to study a very good free good publication from Mackie,
the Compact Mixer Reference Guide, free for the downloading, or you
can order a printed copy:

http://www.mackie.com/support/compactmixer/index.html


thanks for the link. i need to grasp the lingo. i'll try to get that
covered before i post here again. i haven't even got the sm-57 yet, it's
coming in the mail. i just wanted to make sure that i had good enough
pre amps to get distortion free recording, with enough headroom. like i
said before, i read in a post that the mbox doesn't have enough headroom
or dynamic range in it's preamp (hope that is the right term). i just
want to make sure i have everything setup to where my equipment doesn't
work against me, so if i **** up i know it's me and not the equipment.
I'm selling my macbook pro and getting a mini. i'm also selling a guild
s-100. with the money i will be saving on going from the laptop to the
mini added to the guild money, i'll be able to afford a decent preamp
and condenser mic. i was thinking of getting the "really nice
compressor" and either a rode nt-1a or at3035 for a condenser mic. also,
when you buy a new system with apple you can get logic express for $199.
i'm planning on switched over to logic cuz it is compatible with way
more interfaces than pro tools. any suggestons on the condenser mic? I
also need a decent pre amp. the "really nice pre amp" is two channels
and i think around $450. think that would be a good choice for the price
range, or are there other preamps in that price range that beat the RNP?
My main goal is to produce a nice sounding demo of new songs i've
written. I'll be using my martin acoustic (recorded with the condenser)
and the electric with the sm-57.

thanks again for you time and patience,
-adam

[Paul Stamler]

"adam79" wrote in message
...

thanks for the link. i need to grasp the lingo. i'll try to get that
covered before i post here again. i haven't even got the sm-57 yet, it's
coming in the mail. i just wanted to make sure that i had good enough
pre amps to get distortion free recording, with enough headroom. like i
said before, i read in a post that the mbox doesn't have enough headroom
or dynamic range in it's preamp (hope that is the right term). i just
want to make sure i have everything setup to where my equipment doesn't
work against me, so if i **** up i know it's me and not the equipment.

The mbox should be fine; if you find you're still getting distortion with
the gain turned all the way down (a possibility when miking a guitar amp),
get an inline pad from Shure and place it between the mic and preamp.

I'm selling my macbook pro and getting a mini. i'm also selling a guild
s-100. with the money i will be saving on going from the laptop to the
mini added to the guild money, i'll be able to afford a decent preamp
and condenser mic. i was thinking of getting the "really nice
compressor" and either a rode nt-1a or at3035 for a condenser mic. also,
when you buy a new system with apple you can get logic express for $199.
i'm planning on switched over to logic cuz it is compatible with way
more interfaces than pro tools. any suggestons on the condenser mic? I
also need a decent pre amp. the "really nice pre amp" is two channels
and i think around $450. think that would be a good choice for the price
range, or are there other preamps in that price range that beat the RNP?

Not really, and particularly not with the SM57, which you'll be using for at
least some of your recording. The RNP was designed to get
better-than-average results from the SM57. However -- spend some time
learning to use the MBox on its own, with the SM57, before you start
upgrading. Try using a Gizmo (a short cable with a resistor of about 681
ohms soldered between pins 2 and 3 of one of the XLR connectors) to improve
the SM57's loading, and see how it sounds. (Buy a 1-meter cable from
someplace and a resistor from a local surplus store.) Learn how the gear and
the software work, and then start the endless upgrade process.

Oh, and when you buy microphones, buy from someplace that lets you return
the ones you don't like. That way you get to try them with your setup at
home, monitoring on your familiar monitors.

My main goal is to produce a nice sounding demo of new songs i've
written. I'll be using my martin acoustic (recorded with the condenser)
and the electric with the sm-57.

You should be able to do that, although you'll probably find you need to do
some room treatment for the vocals and acoustic guitar to sound good.

Peace,
Paul