[Arny Krueger]

"George Graves" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 3 Aug 2007 16:28:41 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"George Graves" wrote in message
...

As a reviewer, I get to hear all
kinds of cables, and yeah, they do, all, sound "different".

That probably tells us more about the reviewer than we might have wanted
to
know. The idea that every cable sounds different from the next is even
less
probable than the idea that cables with like electrical characteristics
sound different.

Setting aside, for the moment,

Yes, let's ignore the 500 pound gorilla in the room. ;-)

You sure like to jump to conclusions, don't you?

What jump?

that "different" doesn't necessarily mean "better", and how
one defines better in the face of these incredibly tiny differences is
purely
a matter of taste,

What's the difference between "incredibly tiny differences" and "for all
practical purposes, sounds the same"?

Very little, which is my point, in case you missed it.

Are you saying that they are the same, for all practical purposes?

The fact of the matter is that in cables, less than in any
other audio component, there is simply NO correlation between price and
sound
"quality",

Logically follows from the improbable idea that they all sound different
in
an odd sort of way.

Sure it makes sense. How else can you correlate the fact that in many
cases,
$20 worth of 16 GA lamp cord sounds more neutral than a set of megabuck
cables?

I can easily correlate such perceptions with illusions. The major
difference between an illusion and a truthful perception is that the
truthful perception is reliable. Most perceptions of sonic differences
among halfways decent cables (which 16 gauge lamp cord in reasonable
lengthsm and anything electrically more conductive qualifies as) are fail
standard reliability tests. Therefore, the perceptions are illusions.
Illusions need not make any sense.

and above a certain price point, there is no improvement in build
quality either.

Your discussion of Audioquest Everests passed over what I find to be the
most amusing property - the polarizing supply.

I wasn't actually discussing the Everests, just using the cables that
another
poster mentioned as an example of what one gets usually not being
commiserate
with what one is asked to spend. At least Audioquest does give one silver
conductors for one's money, although I'm not sure that over a 15 ft run,
the
difference between silver and solid copper would be noticeable in any
concrete way.

The usual rule of thumb is that increasing the size of a silver conductor by
one wire size (say, from 13 gauge to 12 gauge), makes the slightly larger
copper conductor equally conductive.

Since you brought up build quality, would increasing the shield
polarizing
field generator by 20% make them sound significantly different?

I have no idea. The whole idea of a shield polarizing field on SPEAKER
cables
is somewhat specious to me given the signal amplitude and frequency range
that we're dealing with. If it were picovolts and UHF signals in an
electrically noisy environment, there MIGHT be something to it. But with
10-50 volt swings over 20-20KHz, I damn doubt if it doesn ANYTHING at all.

You mean, it sounds the same?

I note that these cables are more like 12,000 than 10,000 and that's in
either pounds or dollars, depending on the country you buy them in.

That's irrelevant to someone like me (because I wouldn't spend that much
on
cables even if I were as rich a Bill Gates.).

I also notice that someone has a hardly used set on sale for about
$3,000.
So much for residual value, eh?

Speaks volumes. While some might think that's a bargain, I wouldn't pay
even
that for them. My Monster M1's are just fine, thank you.

It appears that Monster M1's are no longer in new production. There are now
Monster M 1.x speaker cables of various kinds depending on the value of x.

I've heard inexpensive cables that I thought were far more
passive (adding nothing and removing nothing that I could detect to.from
the
sound) than some megabuck offerings.

Here's a trick question. What do you call someone who always hears a
difference?

Here's another trick question. What do you call somebody who NEVER hears a
difference?

First answer my question.

But that's neither here nor there.
Expensive cables are for the rich - so they can brag.

Or people who have lots of power to move. I can think of $12,000 dollar
cables that are worth every penny, but they have a lot more than 3 punds
of
conductor in them!

Gimme a break. In audio, the average speaker cable run is about 15 ft. A 4
ga. stranded copper speaker cable can handle THOUSANDS of Watts before
even
getting warm - and even so, the speakers being driven would have to be
damned
inefficient!

I wasn't talking about hifi speaker cables.

There can be no other explanation.

Sure, they are cables for a very large generator or motor.

IME the same explanation works for an amazingly but depressingly large
segment of audio's high end.

Well, you pays your dollar, and you takes your chances.

Or don't pay so many dollars and take no chances. Just make technologically
sound decisions - never a risk.

There is nothing about speaker cables that you can measure and
correlate with what you hear.

Ah, so you're saying that the effects of high end cables effects are
metaphysical?

Nope. I'm saying that they are like cigarettes to me. This guy prefers
Camels, and that guy prefers Marlboros. They all taste the same to me
(lousy). But In speaker cables, I prefer NO taste at all.

I obtain no taste at all for pennies per foot. I call it living better
through established technology.

Yes, cables have resistance, they also have
capacitance and together these form an impedance curve across the audio
spectrum.

You forgot about inductance and skin effect, all of which are measurable
and
contribute to a cable's impedance curve in the audio range. Since you
don't
seem to know about these effects and at least one of them is so strong
that
on a really bad day it can give rise to audible effects, perhaps you want
to
revise your position that "There is nothing about speaker cables that you
can measure and correlate with what you hear"?

I know all about inductance and skin effect, but I suspect that the word
"impedence" covers most of that.

Not as you used it.

And yeah, I forgot to mention inductance.

There you go - straight answers are good things.

So crucify me. Doesn't matter, the point is unchanged by the omission.

It's not crucifixion, its understanding technology and representing it
accurately.

One would think the lower the impedance, the better, yet 16 gauge
LAMP CORD often exhibits less impedance over the audio range than do
many
high-priced, high-tech speaker cables availabe.

Now that's a depressing thought.

Yet very true.

I don't know about that. IME most high end speaker cables run around 12-13
gauge or heavier.

What speaker cables do is
form a passive and very subtle "tone control".

That would be metaphysical tone?

Not at all. Just a very slight change of tonal quality in the upper
mid-range/lower treble region. The only time that one will ever hear it or
notice it is in a direct swap in a system one lives with. After that, the
difference makes no difference (unless one swaps the old cables back). My
attitude is that a difference that makes no difference is not really any
difference at all.

Unlikely unless the cables are exceptionally long for their design or
otherwist poorly chosen.

If you like that particular
alteration to your speaker's sound, buy that cable. Don't want to spend
thousands on cables? then don't listen to those cables in your system.
My
advice is to buy cables that are well made, offer low resistance per
foot,
and don't sweat the tiny differences that you might hear in the
"presence"
region (4-7KHz where most of these high-end cables seem to concentrate
their
"effect" ).

Anything this general has to relate to state of mind, not state of
matter.

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

No, that's established technology.

I can often hear the
difference in speaker cables,

Metaphysically speaking, no doubt.

but it almost never makes any real difference.

That would appear to be double talk.