The problem is that if it is not a VOLTAGE change, but an increase in
AMPERAGE, your test is worthless. Remember, more amperage = better bass as
much, if not more than higher voltage. Potential without anything to
actualize that potential is worthless. Once you add any device to read the
current, you may very well be effecting the previous stage of amplification
with your load/meter. Get it now?

--
Best Regards,

Lou
"chung" wrote in message
...
Lou wrote:
Just how would you measure it, put in a trap, then jam in an amp meter?
I
don't think there is a truly passive way to measure current is there? As
we
are talking a specific freq range you would also have to filter it out
of,
then back into the rest of the signal, that should result in a time
delay as
well I should think. I would think it would be rather hard to do.... The
voltage you ought to be able to see on a spectrum analyzer, but volts
w/o
current give you potential w/o action, though we are often feeding very
high
impedance loads when dealing with interconnects. Anyway, I would think
it
might be more difficult to measure than you might imagine and as I doubt
there is a truly non-loading method, you will not only be driving one
load,
but two or more, which may overload the source making measurements
impossible...

Hmmm, you have been doing all these mods, and you don't know how to
measure the bass response of a cable?

Sweep a sinusoidal signal in frequency, and measure the voltage across
the load, whether it is a speaker or a passive load. Compare the two
cables' repsonse over the full frequency range. What's the problem?


--
Best Regards,

Lou
"chung" wrote in message
news:Y_fsb.128537$ao4.399503@attbi_s51...
fandango wrote:

snip..

I get a kick out of the people in this
forum who argue that everything sounds alike--makes me wonder why
they
bother signing on here. :-)

Can you tell us who those people are?

snip...


My experience tells me that there are indeed differences in the sound
of
some components, some of which are musically significant, and some of
which
matter to me, since they align with my positive emotional reactions
and
my
listening preferences.

You mean differences that align with your negative emotional reactions
do not matter to you? Can you give examples of differences that align
with your negative emotional reactions?

I also have found that there is not always a
correlation between a component's cost and how much its sound appeals
to
me.
For example, I recently listened to a Tara Labs interconnect which
had a
list price of $1600/meter. I compared it to a similar length of DNM
wire
with Eichmann bullet plugs, and the latter presented much more detail
and
more realistic harmonic structure, although not as much bass.

How does a cable give more or less bass? Shouldn't that be measurable,
and if so, how come no one ever reported it?

It's your money--listen, trust your ears, and make your purchases
accordingly. And remember: it's supposed to be fun! That's a part of
the
"high end" we often forget about.

Vade Forrester

On 14 Nov 2003 21:59:30 GMT, "Lou" wrote:

The problem is that if it is not a VOLTAGE change, but an increase in
AMPERAGE, your test is worthless. Remember, more amperage = better bass as
much, if not more than higher voltage. Potential without anything to
actualize that potential is worthless. Once you add any device to read the
current, you may very well be effecting the previous stage of amplification
with your load/meter. Get it now?

It's perfectly simple to measure speaker current - you just put a 0.1
ohm resistor in series with the load, and measure the voltage across
that resistor. If you think that this will somehow interfere with the
speaker system or the cable, then you are really stretching.

Basically, just use a cable with less than quarter of an ohm loop
resistance, and you won't have any problems. Cable sound is a myth, so
that's one less thing to worry about! :-)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Lou wrote:
The problem is that if it is not a VOLTAGE change, but an increase in
AMPERAGE, your test is worthless. Remember, more amperage = better bass as
much, if not more than higher voltage. Potential without anything to
actualize that potential is worthless. Once you add any device to read the
current, you may very well be effecting the previous stage of amplification
with your load/meter. Get it now?


Can you explain how the "amperage" could change without a corresponding
change in voltage across the speaker or passive load?

Still don't get it, and I have been an EE since 1976.

--
Best Regards,

Lou
"chung" wrote in message
...
Lou wrote:
Just how would you measure it, put in a trap, then jam in an amp meter?
I
don't think there is a truly passive way to measure current is there? As
we
are talking a specific freq range you would also have to filter it out
of,
then back into the rest of the signal, that should result in a time
delay as
well I should think. I would think it would be rather hard to do.... The
voltage you ought to be able to see on a spectrum analyzer, but volts
w/o
current give you potential w/o action, though we are often feeding very
high
impedance loads when dealing with interconnects. Anyway, I would think
it
might be more difficult to measure than you might imagine and as I doubt
there is a truly non-loading method, you will not only be driving one
load,
but two or more, which may overload the source making measurements
impossible...

Hmmm, you have been doing all these mods, and you don't know how to
measure the bass response of a cable?

Sweep a sinusoidal signal in frequency, and measure the voltage across
the load, whether it is a speaker or a passive load. Compare the two
cables' repsonse over the full frequency range. What's the problem?


--
Best Regards,

Lou
"chung" wrote in message
news:Y_fsb.128537$ao4.399503@attbi_s51...
fandango wrote:

snip..

I get a kick out of the people in this
forum who argue that everything sounds alike--makes me wonder why
they
bother signing on here. :-)

Can you tell us who those people are?

snip...


My experience tells me that there are indeed differences in the sound
of
some components, some of which are musically significant, and some of
which
matter to me, since they align with my positive emotional reactions
and
my
listening preferences.

You mean differences that align with your negative emotional reactions
do not matter to you? Can you give examples of differences that align
with your negative emotional reactions?

I also have found that there is not always a
correlation between a component's cost and how much its sound appeals
to
me.
For example, I recently listened to a Tara Labs interconnect which
had a
list price of $1600/meter. I compared it to a similar length of DNM
wire
with Eichmann bullet plugs, and the latter presented much more detail
and
more realistic harmonic structure, although not as much bass.

How does a cable give more or less bass? Shouldn't that be measurable,
and if so, how come no one ever reported it?

It's your money--listen, trust your ears, and make your purchases
accordingly. And remember: it's supposed to be fun! That's a part of
the
"high end" we often forget about.

Vade Forrester

. (Stewart Pinkerton) wrote:
Cable sound is a myth, so
that's one less thing to worry about! :-)

With cable sound a myth, all competent amps and CD players sounding the same,
that leaves little in audio for you to worry about.

"What me worry?" A. E. Neuman

Regards,
Mike

Mkuller wrote:
. (Stewart Pinkerton) wrote:
Cable sound is a myth, so
that's one less thing to worry about! :-)

With cable sound a myth, all competent amps and CD players sounding the same,
that leaves little in audio for you to worry about.

"What me worry?" A. E. Neuman

Now if only we could get those pesky loudspeakers and rooms to sound
the same.

--

-S.

"They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason."
-- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director

Mkuller wrote:

. (Stewart Pinkerton) wrote:
Cable sound is a myth, so
that's one less thing to worry about! :-)

With cable sound a myth, all competent amps and CD players sounding the same,
that leaves little in audio for you to worry about.

Why would anyone want something in audio to worry about? Just enjoy the
music!


"What me worry?" A. E. Neuman

Regards,
Mike

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 21:49:53 GMT, (Mkuller) wrote:

. (Stewart Pinkerton) wrote:
Cable sound is a myth, so
that's one less thing to worry about! :-)

With cable sound a myth, all competent amps and CD players sounding the same,
that leaves little in audio for you to worry about.

Actually, it still leaves a whole raft of things concerning speakers
and room acoustics. But at least one can concentrate the mind on those
things, and not worry about the CD player, amps and cables.........
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Voltage is determined by the amp, though the load can cause a drop in the
voltage it should not be much of one. The current depends not upon the amp,
but the load, if the speakers want more current to move a lower frequency,
due to further excursion of the driver, then it will demand more current,
though not more voltage as it cannot demand voltage, from the source. I work
with a LOT of EE types, it does not mean they understand electronics, the
ones I work with know PLC's, 4-20 loops PID loops, etc, but not electronics.
That is why I often find myself correcting them on this very issue. It is
not that they are stupid, it is just that this is not their area of
expertise.

--
Best Regards,

Lou
"chung" wrote in message
news:zNutb.160316$9E1.803392@attbi_s52...
Lou wrote:
The problem is that if it is not a VOLTAGE change, but an increase in
AMPERAGE, your test is worthless. Remember, more amperage = better bass
as
much, if not more than higher voltage. Potential without anything to
actualize that potential is worthless. Once you add any device to read
the
current, you may very well be effecting the previous stage of
amplification
with your load/meter. Get it now?


Can you explain how the "amperage" could change without a corresponding
change in voltage across the speaker or passive load?

Still don't get it, and I have been an EE since 1976.

--
Best Regards,

Lou
"chung" wrote in message
...
Lou wrote:
Just how would you measure it, put in a trap, then jam in an amp
meter?
I
don't think there is a truly passive way to measure current is there?
As
we
are talking a specific freq range you would also have to filter it
out
of,
then back into the rest of the signal, that should result in a time
delay as
well I should think. I would think it would be rather hard to do....
The
voltage you ought to be able to see on a spectrum analyzer, but volts
w/o
current give you potential w/o action, though we are often feeding
very
high
impedance loads when dealing with interconnects. Anyway, I would
think
it
might be more difficult to measure than you might imagine and as I
doubt
there is a truly non-loading method, you will not only be driving one
load,
but two or more, which may overload the source making measurements
impossible...

Hmmm, you have been doing all these mods, and you don't know how to
measure the bass response of a cable?

Sweep a sinusoidal signal in frequency, and measure the voltage across
the load, whether it is a speaker or a passive load. Compare the two
cables' repsonse over the full frequency range. What's the problem?


--
Best Regards,

Lou
"chung" wrote in message
news:Y_fsb.128537$ao4.399503@attbi_s51...
fandango wrote:

snip..

I get a kick out of the people in this
forum who argue that everything sounds alike--makes me wonder why
they
bother signing on here. :-)

Can you tell us who those people are?

snip...


My experience tells me that there are indeed differences in the
sound
of
some components, some of which are musically significant, and some
of
which
matter to me, since they align with my positive emotional
reactions
and
my
listening preferences.

You mean differences that align with your negative emotional
reactions
do not matter to you? Can you give examples of differences that
align
with your negative emotional reactions?

I also have found that there is not always a
correlation between a component's cost and how much its sound
appeals
to
me.
For example, I recently listened to a Tara Labs interconnect which
had a
list price of $1600/meter. I compared it to a similar length of
DNM
wire
with Eichmann bullet plugs, and the latter presented much more
detail
and
more realistic harmonic structure, although not as much bass.

How does a cable give more or less bass? Shouldn't that be
measurable,
and if so, how come no one ever reported it?

It's your money--listen, trust your ears, and make your
purchases
accordingly. And remember: it's supposed to be fun! That's a part
of
the
"high end" we often forget about.

Vade Forrester

On 16 Nov 2003 17:53:02 GMT, "Lou" wrote:

Voltage is determined by the amp, though the load can cause a drop in the
voltage it should not be much of one. The current depends not upon the amp,
but the load, if the speakers want more current to move a lower frequency,
due to further excursion of the driver, then it will demand more current,
though not more voltage as it cannot demand voltage, from the source.

No, you misunderstand the basics here, as the *impedance* of the load
will vary dramatically in the bass region, thereby affecting how much
power is required for a given SPL. It is therefore a moot point
whether the load will require more amps or more volts at any
particular frequency.

I work
with a LOT of EE types, it does not mean they understand electronics, the
ones I work with know PLC's, 4-20 loops PID loops, etc, but not electronics.
That is why I often find myself correcting them on this very issue. It is
not that they are stupid, it is just that this is not their area of
expertise.

Excuse me, but if they are registered professional *engineers*, they
certainly *should* know electronics. You seem to be describing C&I
technicians, which is a different matter entirely.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

chung wrote:
Mkuller wrote:

. (Stewart Pinkerton) wrote:
Cable sound is a myth, so
that's one less thing to worry about! :-)

With cable sound a myth, all competent amps and CD players sounding the same,
that leaves little in audio for you to worry about.

Why would anyone want something in audio to worry about? Just enjoy the
music!

Simple. Audiophiles don't really like music, they just like the sound of
it.

Lou wrote:
Voltage is determined by the amp, though the load can cause a drop in the
voltage it should not be much of one. The current depends not upon the amp,
but the load, if the speakers want more current to move a lower frequency,
due to further excursion of the driver, then it will demand more current,
though not more voltage as it cannot demand voltage, from the source. I work
with a LOT of EE types, it does not mean they understand electronics, the
ones I work with know PLC's, 4-20 loops PID loops, etc, but not electronics.
That is why I often find myself correcting them on this very issue.

So, you worked with some EE's and by your standards, they don't
understand electronics the way you do. Were you "correcting them" or did
you understand what they are saying?

It is
not that they are stupid, it is just that this is not their area of
expertise.

This is really as simple as applying Ohm's law.

The amp can be modelled as a voltage source with a small resistance. The
cable is connected between amp and load. You measure the voltage across
the load, over the bass frequency range of interest. If one cable has
"more" bass response, the voltage across the load will be higher than
that for the other cable. Use resistive loads to simplify things in your
mind. Also compare at 1 KHz to take out the resistive effects of the
cable due to length.

Now, can you do what I asked, which is to explain how voltages across
the load can stay the same if the current (or amperage as you called it)
change?

In DBT's of cables, it is standard fare to match response to within 0.1
dB. So people have done that all the time. In fact, seldom would they
look at response at the bass end, since that is totally dependent on the
length (i.e. the series resistance), and not on capacitance or inductance.


--
Best Regards,

Lou

Lou wrote:

I work
with a LOT of EE types, it does not mean they understand electronics, the
ones I work with know PLC's, 4-20 loops PID loops, etc, but not electronics.
That is why I often find myself correcting them on this very issue. It is
not that they are stupid, it is just that this is not their area of
expertise.

Or they just forgot. This theory is taught universally in an EE undergraduate
program around the second or third year - a first course in electronics or
circuit theory. The concepts of ideal voltage source, ideal current source,
etc. usually come at about the same time as Thevenin equivalent circuits. Even
a "sub-standard" school like DeVry taught us that.

--A DeVry Graduate (as well as a EE and Mathematics graduate from the University
of South Florida).

--
% Randy Yates % "...the answer lies within your soul
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % 'cause no one knows which side
%%% 919-577-9882 % the coin will fall."
%%%% % 'Big Wheels', *Out of the Blue*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

wrote in message ...
chung wrote:
Mkuller wrote:

. (Stewart Pinkerton) wrote:
Cable sound is a myth, so
that's one less thing to worry about! :-)

With cable sound a myth, all competent amps and CD players sounding the
same,
that leaves little in audio for you to worry about.

Why would anyone want something in audio to worry about? Just enjoy the
music!

Simple. Audiophiles don't really like music, they just like the sound of
it.

It must be nice to know that you can speak for all audiophiles. Such
certainty.

I hate to shatter your fantasies. But my interest in music preceded my
interest in equipment. First and foremost because I love jazz, having been
raised in a household full of it (my dad was a jazz drummer in his early
years). My best friends since college have been a couple who founded a
successful (for 27 years) professional chamber group, and I have attended
hundreds of chamber concerts over the years. It is my favorite type of music
other than jazz. In addition, I was a chorister in high school and have a
real fondness for choral music.

I guess I don't qualify as an audiophile then, right?

They have letters from men, they are engineers. I know not if they are
"registered" what ever that means. Not much emphasis seems to be placed upon
analogue these days in the schools, or at least that is what they tell me.

" No, you misunderstand the basics here, as the *impedance* of the load
will vary dramatically in the bass region, thereby affecting how much
power is required for a given SPL. It is therefore a moot point
whether the load will require more amps or more volts at any
particular frequency."

Someone sure is misunderstanding someone here... If you claim that an IC
gives you more bass, sure you can compare the current in the 2 ICs, but the
only way to know would be to filter out the low frequencies where it is said
they are hearing more bass, and see if there is in fact more current flow
there.


--
Best Regards,

Lou
"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On 16 Nov 2003 17:53:02 GMT, "Lou" wrote:

Voltage is determined by the amp, though the load can cause a drop in the
voltage it should not be much of one. The current depends not upon the
amp,
but the load, if the speakers want more current to move a lower
frequency,
due to further excursion of the driver, then it will demand more current,
though not more voltage as it cannot demand voltage, from the source.

No, you misunderstand the basics here, as the *impedance* of the load
will vary dramatically in the bass region, thereby affecting how much
power is required for a given SPL. It is therefore a moot point
whether the load will require more amps or more volts at any
particular frequency.

I work
with a LOT of EE types, it does not mean they understand electronics, the
ones I work with know PLC's, 4-20 loops PID loops, etc, but not
electronics.
That is why I often find myself correcting them on this very issue. It is
not that they are stupid, it is just that this is not their area of
expertise.

Excuse me, but if they are registered professional *engineers*, they
certainly *should* know electronics. You seem to be describing C&I
technicians, which is a different matter entirely.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Lou wrote:
They have letters from men, they are engineers. I know not if they are
"registered" what ever that means. Not much emphasis seems to be placed upon
analogue these days in the schools, or at least that is what they tell me.

" No, you misunderstand the basics here, as the *impedance* of the load
will vary dramatically in the bass region, thereby affecting how much
power is required for a given SPL. It is therefore a moot point
whether the load will require more amps or more volts at any
particular frequency."

Someone sure is misunderstanding someone here... If you claim that an IC
gives you more bass, sure you can compare the current in the 2 ICs, but the
only way to know would be to filter out the low frequencies where it is said
they are hearing more bass, and see if there is in fact more current flow
there.

For there to be "more current flow" with one cable, there has to be more
voltage measured across the load. Why is this difficult to see?

Are you saying that there can be more current flowing into the load with
the *same* measured voltage across the load? Does "impedance" mean
anything to you?

You realize that we are not comparing speakers. We are talking about
differences in bass response between two cables.



--

All CDPs and amps SHOULD sound the same, but they hardly do... Compare a
Sony DVP-S9000ES against anything you can get at Wal-Mart...

--
Best Regards,

Lou
"Mkuller" wrote in message
news:5cxtb.157598$mZ5.1081553@attbi_s54...
. (Stewart Pinkerton) wrote:
Cable sound is a myth, so
that's one less thing to worry about! :-)

With cable sound a myth, all competent amps and CD players sounding the
same,
that leaves little in audio for you to worry about.

"What me worry?" A. E. Neuman

Regards,
Mike

Hi Randy,

Exactly, I use it slightly more than they do, so it stays a little fresher
in my memory, though I am admittedly pretty rusty myself. Industrial repair
pays a heck of a lot more than electronic repair...

--
Best Regards,

Lou
"Randy Yates" wrote in message
news:2p7ub.224680$Tr4.664361@attbi_s03...
Lou wrote:

I work
with a LOT of EE types, it does not mean they understand electronics,
the
ones I work with know PLC's, 4-20 loops PID loops, etc, but not
electronics.
That is why I often find myself correcting them on this very issue. It
is
not that they are stupid, it is just that this is not their area of
expertise.

Or they just forgot. This theory is taught universally in an EE
undergraduate
program around the second or third year - a first course in electronics or
circuit theory. The concepts of ideal voltage source, ideal current
source,
etc. usually come at about the same time as Thevenin equivalent circuits.
Even
a "sub-standard" school like DeVry taught us that.

--A DeVry Graduate (as well as a EE and Mathematics graduate from the
University
of South Florida).

--
% Randy Yates % "...the answer lies within your soul
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % 'cause no one knows which side
%%% 919-577-9882 % the coin will fall."
%%%% % 'Big Wheels', *Out of the Blue*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

I am not saying that I never need correcting Mr. Chung, but your implication
is insulting as you imply that I am less than honest here, be it with
myself, or you, or who ever... It is not that they do not understand it as I
do, or that I did not understand what they were saying as they have adopted
what I said. They just do not work with electronics, they would with PLC's
networking PLC's, and ladder logic, there is a difference. Use it or lose
it, which is why I am not as current as I might like to be either. I nearly
never do electronics outside of this hobby, meaning very rarely at work. It
is far more electrical and I suppose technical in nature.

This is really as simple as applying Ohm's law.

The amp can be modelled as a voltage source with a small resistance. The
cable is connected between amp and load. You measure the voltage across
the load, over the bass frequency range of interest. If one cable has
"more" bass response, the voltage across the load will be higher than
that for the other cable. Use resistive loads to simplify things in your
mind. Also compare at 1 KHz to take out the resistive effects of the
cable due to length.

You are right, I was not thinking of using a signal generator, I was
thinking in terms of the entire signal.

Now, can you do what I asked, which is to explain how voltages across
the load can stay the same if the current (or amperage as you called it)
change?

What I was attempting to say was that the input signal determines the
voltage, not the current. That the amp will attempt to supply the required
current as determined by the load and the voltage. More percisely I was
speaking of a music signal, and was speaking about one frequency, as you are
dealing with a complex load, LCR as opposed to a resistive load, anything
can draw current, thus an increase in current at some frequency does not
mean an increase at all frequencies, as a driver will have uneven load
characteristics at various frequencies. Thus an increase in over all current
does not necessarily mean it is greater at a specific frequency, that that
freq would have to be isolated to be sure the increase is in that range.
Unfortunately I did not even think of a signal generator.

In fact, seldom would they
look at response at the bass end, since that is totally dependent on the
length (i.e. the series resistance), and not on capacitance or
inductance

Thus if one cable has less resistance per foot, one would expect to hear a
difference in bass?
--
Best Regards,

Lou
"chung" wrote in message
news:aiStb.19265$Dw6.88484@attbi_s02...
Lou wrote:
Voltage is determined by the amp, though the load can cause a drop in
the
voltage it should not be much of one. The current depends not upon the
amp,
but the load, if the speakers want more current to move a lower
frequency,
due to further excursion of the driver, then it will demand more
current,
though not more voltage as it cannot demand voltage, from the source. I
work
with a LOT of EE types, it does not mean they understand electronics,
the
ones I work with know PLC's, 4-20 loops PID loops, etc, but not
electronics.
That is why I often find myself correcting them on this very issue.

So, you worked with some EE's and by your standards, they don't
understand electronics the way you do. Were you "correcting them" or did
you understand what they are saying?

It is
not that they are stupid, it is just that this is not their area of
expertise.

This is really as simple as applying Ohm's law.

The amp can be modelled as a voltage source with a small resistance. The
cable is connected between amp and load. You measure the voltage across
the load, over the bass frequency range of interest. If one cable has
"more" bass response, the voltage across the load will be higher than
that for the other cable. Use resistive loads to simplify things in your
mind. Also compare at 1 KHz to take out the resistive effects of the
cable due to length.

Now, can you do what I asked, which is to explain how voltages across
the load can stay the same if the current (or amperage as you called it)
change?

In DBT's of cables, it is standard fare to match response to within 0.1
dB. So people have done that all the time. In fact, seldom would they
look at response at the bass end, since that is totally dependent on the
length (i.e. the series resistance), and not on capacitance or
inductance.


--
Best Regards,

Lou

Harry Lavo wrote:

It must be nice to know that you can speak for all audiophiles. Such
certainty.

I hate to shatter your fantasies. But my interest in music preceded my
interest in equipment. First and foremost because I love jazz, having been
raised in a household full of it (my dad was a jazz drummer in his early
years). My best friends since college have been a couple who founded a
successful (for 27 years) professional chamber group, and I have attended
hundreds of chamber concerts over the years. It is my favorite type of music
other than jazz. In addition, I was a chorister in high school and have a
real fondness for choral music.

I guess I don't qualify as an audiophile then, right?

It is a half serious joke. I suppose I should have put in a 'humor alert',
no?

It IS true in some cases.

Chung said;

"For there to be "more current flow" with one cable, there has to be more
voltage measured across the load. Why is this difficult to see?"

Drugs in my younger days, I have the flue, I really do, had a flue shot, but
that was a waste. I was thinking about a music signal into a full range
speaker.

"Are you saying that there can be more current flowing into the load with
the *same* measured voltage across the load? Does "impedance" mean
anything to you?"

I have already addressed this in another post, there is no need to argue it
in 2 posts.

You realize that we are not comparing speakers. We are talking about
differences in bass response between two cables.

Actually I was thinking of IC's between components more than speaker cables,
once you get into a good cable, I have not tried 12 gage wire so I cannot
comment, but once you get into a Goertz, Kimber, Monster, et. al. I cannot
hear a difference, but I have heard differences in IC's.
--
Best Regards,

Lou
"chung" wrote in message
...
Lou wrote:
They have letters from men, they are engineers. I know not if they are
"registered" what ever that means. Not much emphasis seems to be placed
upon
analogue these days in the schools, or at least that is what they tell
me.

" No, you misunderstand the basics here, as the *impedance* of the load
will vary dramatically in the bass region, thereby affecting how much
power is required for a given SPL. It is therefore a moot point
whether the load will require more amps or more volts at any
particular frequency."

Someone sure is misunderstanding someone here... If you claim that an IC
gives you more bass, sure you can compare the current in the 2 ICs, but
the
only way to know would be to filter out the low frequencies where it is
said
they are hearing more bass, and see if there is in fact more current
flow
there.

For there to be "more current flow" with one cable, there has to be more
voltage measured across the load. Why is this difficult to see?

Are you saying that there can be more current flowing into the load with
the *same* measured voltage across the load? Does "impedance" mean
anything to you?

You realize that we are not comparing speakers. We are talking about
differences in bass response between two cables.



--

Lou wrote:
I am not saying that I never need correcting Mr. Chung, but your implication
is insulting as you imply that I am less than honest here, be it with
myself, or you, or who ever...

OK, you were the one saying that those EE's did not know about voltages
and currents. Based on the knowledge you have so far displayed here, you
probably did not understand what these EE's were trying to tell you. If
you think it is insulting for me to point it out, think about your
statement that these EE's did not know voltages and currents like you
do. Frankly, that is insulting. And honesty has nothing to do with it.

It is not that they do not understand it as I
do, or that I did not understand what they were saying as they have adopted
what I said. They just do not work with electronics, they would with PLC's
networking PLC's, and ladder logic, there is a difference. Use it or lose
it, which is why I am not as current as I might like to be either. I nearly
never do electronics outside of this hobby, meaning very rarely at work. It
is far more electrical and I suppose technical in nature.

This is really as simple as applying Ohm's law.

The amp can be modelled as a voltage source with a small resistance. The
cable is connected between amp and load. You measure the voltage across
the load, over the bass frequency range of interest. If one cable has
"more" bass response, the voltage across the load will be higher than
that for the other cable. Use resistive loads to simplify things in your
mind. Also compare at 1 KHz to take out the resistive effects of the
cable due to length.

You are right, I was not thinking of using a signal generator, I was
thinking in terms of the entire signal.


Well, if it takes 2 to 3 tries before you get the point, how can I take
your word that those EE's did not understand stuff like you could?

Now, can you do what I asked, which is to explain how voltages across
the load can stay the same if the current (or amperage as you called it)
change?

What I was attempting to say was that the input signal determines the
voltage, not the current. That the amp will attempt to supply the required
current as determined by the load and the voltage. More percisely I was
speaking of a music signal, and was speaking about one frequency, as you are
dealing with a complex load, LCR as opposed to a resistive load, anything
can draw current, thus an increase in current at some frequency does not
mean an increase at all frequencies, as a driver will have uneven load
characteristics at various frequencies. Thus an increase in over all current
does not necessarily mean it is greater at a specific frequency, that that
freq would have to be isolated to be sure the increase is in that range.
Unfortunately I did not even think of a signal generator.

In fact, seldom would they
look at response at the bass end, since that is totally dependent on the
length (i.e. the series resistance), and not on capacitance or
inductance

Thus if one cable has less resistance per foot, one would expect to hear a
difference in bass?

Absolutly no. If the cables have different *total* resistance, there
will be a slight shift of the whole response, up or down. We are talking
milliohms here compared to the several ohms of speaker impedance. But to
imply that cable A has "more bass" than cable B, you need to show that
after correcting for any shift due to resistance (which can be
compensated by adjusting the volume control), the *shape* of the
frequency response is different between the two cables in that cable A
produces a higher voltage at the lower frequencies.

--
Best Regards,

Lou
"chung" wrote in message
news:aiStb.19265$Dw6.88484@attbi_s02...
Lou wrote:
Voltage is determined by the amp, though the load can cause a drop in
the
voltage it should not be much of one. The current depends not upon the
amp,
but the load, if the speakers want more current to move a lower
frequency,
due to further excursion of the driver, then it will demand more
current,
though not more voltage as it cannot demand voltage, from the source. I
work
with a LOT of EE types, it does not mean they understand electronics,
the
ones I work with know PLC's, 4-20 loops PID loops, etc, but not
electronics.
That is why I often find myself correcting them on this very issue.

So, you worked with some EE's and by your standards, they don't
understand electronics the way you do. Were you "correcting them" or did
you understand what they are saying?

It is
not that they are stupid, it is just that this is not their area of
expertise.

This is really as simple as applying Ohm's law.

The amp can be modelled as a voltage source with a small resistance. The
cable is connected between amp and load. You measure the voltage across
the load, over the bass frequency range of interest. If one cable has
"more" bass response, the voltage across the load will be higher than
that for the other cable. Use resistive loads to simplify things in your
mind. Also compare at 1 KHz to take out the resistive effects of the
cable due to length.

Now, can you do what I asked, which is to explain how voltages across
the load can stay the same if the current (or amperage as you called it)
change?

In DBT's of cables, it is standard fare to match response to within 0.1
dB. So people have done that all the time. In fact, seldom would they
look at response at the bass end, since that is totally dependent on the
length (i.e. the series resistance), and not on capacitance or
inductance.


--
Best Regards,

Lou

On 17 Nov 2003 17:43:54 GMT, "Lou" wrote:

Stewart wrote:

" No, you misunderstand the basics here, as the *impedance* of the load
will vary dramatically in the bass region, thereby affecting how much
power is required for a given SPL. It is therefore a moot point
whether the load will require more amps or more volts at any
particular frequency."

Someone sure is misunderstanding someone here... If you claim that an IC
gives you more bass, sure you can compare the current in the 2 ICs, but the
only way to know would be to filter out the low frequencies where it is said
they are hearing more bass, and see if there is in fact more current flow
there.

In my recent e-mail, which part of 'just use a low-frequency sine
wave' did you fail to understand? This ain't rocket science! If there
really were any differences, they would be *easily* measurable. The
truth is, there aren't - *especially* in the bass region.

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Well, if it takes 2 to 3 tries before you get the point, how can I take
your word that those EE's did not understand stuff like you could?

Fine, end of discussion!

--
Best Regards,

Lou
"chung" wrote in message
...
Lou wrote:
I am not saying that I never need correcting Mr. Chung, but your
implication
is insulting as you imply that I am less than honest here, be it with
myself, or you, or who ever...

OK, you were the one saying that those EE's did not know about voltages
and currents. Based on the knowledge you have so far displayed here, you
probably did not understand what these EE's were trying to tell you. If
you think it is insulting for me to point it out, think about your
statement that these EE's did not know voltages and currents like you
do. Frankly, that is insulting. And honesty has nothing to do with it.

It is not that they do not understand it as I
do, or that I did not understand what they were saying as they have
adopted
what I said. They just do not work with electronics, they would with
PLC's
networking PLC's, and ladder logic, there is a difference. Use it or
lose
it, which is why I am not as current as I might like to be either. I
nearly
never do electronics outside of this hobby, meaning very rarely at work.
It
is far more electrical and I suppose technical in nature.

This is really as simple as applying Ohm's law.

The amp can be modelled as a voltage source with a small resistance.
The
cable is connected between amp and load. You measure the voltage across
the load, over the bass frequency range of interest. If one cable has
"more" bass response, the voltage across the load will be higher than
that for the other cable. Use resistive loads to simplify things in
your
mind. Also compare at 1 KHz to take out the resistive effects of the
cable due to length.

You are right, I was not thinking of using a signal generator, I was
thinking in terms of the entire signal.



Now, can you do what I asked, which is to explain how voltages across
the load can stay the same if the current (or amperage as you called
it)
change?

What I was attempting to say was that the input signal determines the
voltage, not the current. That the amp will attempt to supply the
required
current as determined by the load and the voltage. More percisely I was
speaking of a music signal, and was speaking about one frequency, as you
are
dealing with a complex load, LCR as opposed to a resistive load,
anything
can draw current, thus an increase in current at some frequency does not
mean an increase at all frequencies, as a driver will have uneven load
characteristics at various frequencies. Thus an increase in over all
current
does not necessarily mean it is greater at a specific frequency, that
that
freq would have to be isolated to be sure the increase is in that range.
Unfortunately I did not even think of a signal generator.

In fact, seldom would they
look at response at the bass end, since that is totally dependent on
the
length (i.e. the series resistance), and not on capacitance or
inductance

Thus if one cable has less resistance per foot, one would expect to hear
a
difference in bass?

Absolutly no. If the cables have different *total* resistance, there
will be a slight shift of the whole response, up or down. We are talking
milliohms here compared to the several ohms of speaker impedance. But to
imply that cable A has "more bass" than cable B, you need to show that
after correcting for any shift due to resistance (which can be
compensated by adjusting the volume control), the *shape* of the
frequency response is different between the two cables in that cable A
produces a higher voltage at the lower frequencies.

--
Best Regards,

Lou
"chung" wrote in message
news:aiStb.19265$Dw6.88484@attbi_s02...
Lou wrote:
Voltage is determined by the amp, though the load can cause a drop in
the
voltage it should not be much of one. The current depends not upon
the
amp,
but the load, if the speakers want more current to move a lower
frequency,
due to further excursion of the driver, then it will demand more
current,
though not more voltage as it cannot demand voltage, from the source.
I
work
with a LOT of EE types, it does not mean they understand electronics,
the
ones I work with know PLC's, 4-20 loops PID loops, etc, but not
electronics.
That is why I often find myself correcting them on this very issue.

So, you worked with some EE's and by your standards, they don't
understand electronics the way you do. Were you "correcting them" or
did
you understand what they are saying?

It is
not that they are stupid, it is just that this is not their area of
expertise.

This is really as simple as applying Ohm's law.

The amp can be modelled as a voltage source with a small resistance.
The
cable is connected between amp and load. You measure the voltage across
the load, over the bass frequency range of interest. If one cable has
"more" bass response, the voltage across the load will be higher than
that for the other cable. Use resistive loads to simplify things in
your
mind. Also compare at 1 KHz to take out the resistive effects of the
cable due to length.

Now, can you do what I asked, which is to explain how voltages across
the load can stay the same if the current (or amperage as you called
it)
change?

In DBT's of cables, it is standard fare to match response to within 0.1
dB. So people have done that all the time. In fact, seldom would they
look at response at the bass end, since that is totally dependent on
the
length (i.e. the series resistance), and not on capacitance or
inductance.


--
Best Regards,

Lou