[[email protected]]

Scott - I appreciate the many times you have responded in the past to
my questions, and all the other informative material you post here
regularly. I hope you will take a moment and give me your thoughts on
an ongoing problem I experience.

I have a generally dead tracking room - about 17x23x8' with carpet
floor. i have done 5 CDs in this room for a local harp and flute duo,
playing celtic, traditional, and some classical material. i have good
mics (DPA 4011s, schoeps cmc64s, akg c481s, royer r-121) and HV3
preamps, going into a roland vs1880. i mix in realtime to a taqscam
CD recorder. tannoy active reveals.

from your past posts, i know that you prefer nice live venues to
record in, and you prefer mosr distant micing techniques, but i just
dont have access to any halls, or decent rooms to do the work with
this group (it costs money to rent anything, and it takes a long time
for this group to get all their tracks down), and the group likes to
work at their leisure in the studio facility, so i am basically stuck
with doing it this way. they also do not like to record together, so
it is tracking one instrumetn at a time. i know you would not do it
this way, but perhaps you can at least help me minimize the problems
that crop up recording this way.

since the room is dead, i generally use close mics. i mic the harp
(big pedal harp) with a stereo pair of 4011s, in a ORTF or more narrow
DIN setup about 3-4 out front 3 feet high. i mic the flute with a
single C481 or ribbon about 3 feet out and a little above the flute.

now the problem - no matter what i do, i cannot get a flute sound that
i like very much. i can always make the harp sound very nice,
likewiswe the cello and violin that we use on some songs. however,
all the instruments (being mic'ed close) sound very up front, no
matter how much reverb i apply. the only way i can make th flute
sound decent is to give it plenty of reverb, which often pushes it
back behind the other instruments in the mix and doesnt sound right.
if i back off the verb, the flute is too in-your-face.

pretty much all of it sounds a little too in your face for me - is
that only because of the close micing approach? should i back the
mics off to 5-6feet or further even in a dead room? i have of course
tried that, and generally always prefer the closer mic as cleaner and
more detailed, though again, by the time i mix with other stuff, it is
too loud and up front (oddly sounds too loud even if i pull way back
on the gain).

i try to match the reverb and sound of good james galway CDs, but
hardy har... even though i know he often records in studio settings
(like his work with the cheiftains, where he is about 4 feet from a
c414). i have also tried to emulate the way-close studio sound of
bonnie rideout and her group, with no luck - her material is extremely
close miced and very up front sounding, but still doesnt soudn as
unreal as my stuff (it sounds like it is heavily compressed, while i
never use any compression) given the many limitations i have
outlined, how can i best acheive a realistic sounding recording?
thanks for your time.

[Scott Dorsey]

wrote:
I have a generally dead tracking room - about 17x23x8' with carpet
floor. i have done 5 CDs in this room for a local harp and flute duo,
playing celtic, traditional, and some classical material. i have good
mics (DPA 4011s, schoeps cmc64s, akg c481s, royer r-121) and HV3
preamps, going into a roland vs1880. i mix in realtime to a taqscam
CD recorder. tannoy active reveals.

Carpet floor, and what is on the walls? Carpet is mostly going to absorb
at high frequencies, so if you have just carpet absorption you can have
all sorts of lower midrange goofiness going on.

from your past posts, i know that you prefer nice live venues to
record in, and you prefer mosr distant micing techniques, but i just
dont have access to any halls, or decent rooms to do the work with
this group (it costs money to rent anything, and it takes a long time
for this group to get all their tracks down), and the group likes to
work at their leisure in the studio facility, so i am basically stuck
with doing it this way. they also do not like to record together, so
it is tracking one instrumetn at a time. i know you would not do it
this way, but perhaps you can at least help me minimize the problems
that crop up recording this way.

You can make a dead room live, by tossing up a few sheets of plywood here
and there, or even better something that provides diffusion (like
bookcases or huge woodcarvings). You can rig things to hang up or put on
the floor that can be moved out of the way when you don't need them.

since the room is dead, i generally use close mics. i mic the harp
(big pedal harp) with a stereo pair of 4011s, in a ORTF or more narrow
DIN setup about 3-4 out front 3 feet high. i mic the flute with a
single C481 or ribbon about 3 feet out and a little above the flute.

now the problem - no matter what i do, i cannot get a flute sound that
i like very much. i can always make the harp sound very nice,
likewiswe the cello and violin that we use on some songs. however,
all the instruments (being mic'ed close) sound very up front, no
matter how much reverb i apply. the only way i can make th flute
sound decent is to give it plenty of reverb, which often pushes it
back behind the other instruments in the mix and doesnt sound right.
if i back off the verb, the flute is too in-your-face.

Even with the ribbon, or with an old EV 664? Cutting the top end off
makes it a little less in your face. But yes, the flute will probably
need some room sound to be good.

So, what other spaces do you have besides the main tracking room? Got
a front office? A hallway? A men's room? Try them! I think that in
some cases, a small, live, and boxy-sounding room can be better than a
larger dead room, and this might be one of them.

pretty much all of it sounds a little too in your face for me - is
that only because of the close micing approach? should i back the
mics off to 5-6feet or further even in a dead room? i have of course
tried that, and generally always prefer the closer mic as cleaner and
more detailed, though again, by the time i mix with other stuff, it is
too loud and up front (oddly sounds too loud even if i pull way back
on the gain).

Well, the flute IS an in your face kind of instrument to begin with.
Using a mike that is mellow on top and adding some reverb is a reasonable
approach if you can't get back more.

i try to match the reverb and sound of good james galway CDs, but
hardy har... even though i know he often records in studio settings
(like his work with the cheiftains, where he is about 4 feet from a
c414).

Some of his classical crossover recordings sound like they are using a
whole lot of fake reverb to me... it definitely sounds like a box rather
than a real room.

i have also tried to emulate the way-close studio sound of
bonnie rideout and her group, with no luck - her material is extremely
close miced and very up front sounding, but still doesnt soudn as
unreal as my stuff (it sounds like it is heavily compressed, while i
never use any compression) given the many limitations i have
outlined, how can i best acheive a realistic sounding recording?

I'd suggest trying another room, even something like the control booth,
and see what it gets you, before doing anything else.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

scott - thanks for the reply. sheetrock walls, a few bookcases, baby
grand piano, good diffusion, no real low freq probs that i can
identify - it is just a very dead space. i have tried placing 4-4x8
sheets of plywood on the floor under the player before, but had very
little effect. i have also tried moving her out into the foyer area
which is more live, but that also does not seem to make much
difference.

i know this player is used to performing in big venues, and is
accustomed to playing loud - it works fine in a big venue, but playing
that loud to a close mic seems to me to be part of the problem. it is
very hard to communicate to the player that they might need to play
differently in the studio than in a hall - should i broach this
subject with the player again?

since i am close micing, does that affect what kind of reverb i should
use? often, medium rooms sound pretty realistic to the sound, but the
players both like large hall reverbs like on most other CDs like
theirs. when i put enough large hall on the flute to make it sound
smooth enough, it always sounds like it is placed way behind the harp
(even though the harp might have just as much LH reverb on it too. i
tend to pan the stereo harp hard LR and put the flute in the middle,
but i have tried putting the harp to one side and flute to the other -
that helps some, but both players like it better with wide harp and
flute in middle.

so, even if i am tracking in a dead space, is it your opinion that i
should still move the mic(s) back to 6 feet or so instead of 3 feet?
if i pull back to 6 feet or more, should i track the flute in stereo,
with ORTF cards? or stick to mono? when adding effects, is just a
single decent reverb all i should do to it, or should i add short
echo, or smear out the flute location a bit with a stereo mic patch
effect? blend a small verb with a bit of large verb? pann the
instruments apart as described, or use wide harp with flute in
middle? should i try compressing the flute on the way in?

any other thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. thanks again.

[Nono]

Like you I'm a great admirer of Scott as well, so I'll leave the more
technical solution to him.
But I'm wondering:
Do you know how you want the songs to sound or how the songs should
sound before you start recording?
In that case you'd choose the (microphone) technique to achieve that
sound, otherwise you could accept the recording sounding like it does
and apply the (mixing) technique that best suits that particular
sound.
The same applies to the quality (I don't mean this in the wrong way)
or the style of playing of the musicians; they too have to accept that
the way they sound is the way they sound.
Secondly; do the musicians leave you the room to do your job? While
they know how to play their stuff and may have their ideas about how
they want to sound, what you should obviously respect, they should
also know that you are the one who knows what the possibilities are
and what is needed in order to achieve it.

The reason for me saying this are your remarks:
" it is very hard to communicate to the player that they might need to
play differently in the studio than in a hall" and ".....often, medium
rooms sound pretty realistic to the sound, but the players both like
large hall reverbs like on most other CDs like theirs." and "....that
helps some, but both players like it better with wide harp and flute
in middle."

I had an experience with a female singer that wanted her recording to
sound like her favourite singer, while she did not sing at all like
like that. Because of this she refused all my attempts to make the
recordings sound good in her own particular style. It was like trying
to get a trombone to sound like an alto saxophone.

Good luck.

[HKC]

I had an experience with a female singer that wanted her recording to
sound like her favourite singer, while she did not sing at all like
like that. Because of this she refused all my attempts to make the
recordings sound good in her own particular style. It was like trying
to get a trombone to sound like an alto saxophone.



That kind of sums up most of my clients!!!!

[Scott Dorsey]

wrote:
i have also tried moving her out into the foyer area
which is more live, but that also does not seem to make much
difference.

Sounds like time for fake reverb, then.

i know this player is used to performing in big venues, and is
accustomed to playing loud - it works fine in a big venue, but playing
that loud to a close mic seems to me to be part of the problem. it is
very hard to communicate to the player that they might need to play
differently in the studio than in a hall - should i broach this
subject with the player again?

No, because they probably don't know how to play differently. And I am
not sure what to tell them to explain how.

since i am close micing, does that affect what kind of reverb i should
use? often, medium rooms sound pretty realistic to the sound, but the
players both like large hall reverbs like on most other CDs like
theirs. when i put enough large hall on the flute to make it sound
smooth enough, it always sounds like it is placed way behind the harp
(even though the harp might have just as much LH reverb on it too. i
tend to pan the stereo harp hard LR and put the flute in the middle,
but i have tried putting the harp to one side and flute to the other -
that helps some, but both players like it better with wide harp and
flute in middle.

Do you want it to be really forward in the mix, or do you want it way
far back. I would tend to use a fairly short reverb, and not too much
of it. You can also try using a little predelay on the reverb to make
it sound a little larger without losing definition on the sound, but
a little goes a long way.

Can you try working in the foyer and pulling way back?

so, even if i am tracking in a dead space, is it your opinion that i
should still move the mic(s) back to 6 feet or so instead of 3 feet?

I think if you are tracking in a dead space, pulling back won't help
you any. You can try it but I don't think you will gain much.

if i pull back to 6 feet or more, should i track the flute in stereo,
with ORTF cards? or stick to mono?

Again, if the room is dead, there are no stereo ambience cues to pick
up, so you won't gain much with stereo miking. My worry is that maybe
your room is more live than you think in the lower midrange, and just
dead at higher frequencies. That can be a real problem.

when adding effects, is just a
single decent reverb all i should do to it, or should i add short
echo, or smear out the flute location a bit with a stereo mic patch
effect? blend a small verb with a bit of large verb? pann the
instruments apart as described, or use wide harp with flute in
middle? should i try compressing the flute on the way in?

In the digital world, you gain nothing by processing in tracking, so
it might be worth just taking one of the live tracks you have and playing
around with processing on it. I don't think compression will buy you
anything other than making the valve noise worse, but you can try it.
I think your best bet is to spend time playing around with reverb and
maybe layering a couple reverbs.

I don't really run into this sort of problem much, though, since I tend
to take people out to a big room with more ambience when that's what I want.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."