[Jay[_2_]]

I keep hearing about how some mixing engineers like to put all the drums in
1 group and squash them. I'd like to know more about this practice.

1) What kind of squashing are we talking about here? Massive or light? Give
me an example of ratio/threshold that could be considered all-purpose.

2) Are we talking floor/toms/snare only, or the cymbals too?

3) If there are background drum loops supporting the main drumkit, do you
include them in this group as well?

I know the answer to all of these questions could be "depends on your
tastes", but let's say we base them on yours in order to get some actual
answers. =)

Thanks!

[Scott Dorsey]

In article , Jay wrote:
I keep hearing about how some mixing engineers like to put all the drums in
1 group and squash them. I'd like to know more about this practice.

People do it sometimes, mostly because it exaggerates the decay of
notes.

1) What kind of squashing are we talking about here? Massive or light? Give
me an example of ratio/threshold that could be considered all-purpose.

There is none. You can use a little bit of compression to make the
drums a little punchier. Or you can stick it into a reverb chamber
and slam it with heavy compression for that Ventures sound. There is a
huge range of possibilities.

2) Are we talking floor/toms/snare only, or the cymbals too?

Well, traditionally if you're limited on tracks, you'll submix the whole
drum kit down to one or two tracks, including everything. You will find
that technique used on lots and lots of older mixes.

For the most part, I expect drum mixes to be based around the overheads.
Bring the overheads up first, then bring the spots in to balance.

3) If there are background drum loops supporting the main drumkit, do you
include them in this group as well?

I dunno, I have never used loops.

I know the answer to all of these questions could be "depends on your
tastes", but let's say we base them on yours in order to get some actual
answers. =)

This is a case where you are using compression as an effect. You can use
compression to make drums a little more forward, or you can use it to
exaggerate the room decay, or you can go totally overboard and do the
Ventures or Joe Meek thing. My taste is mostly to not use it at all because
I'm mostly trying to get the drums more recessed in the mix rather than up
more forward. But I also tend to like more sparse mixes than are popular
today.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Raw-Tracks]

Jay wrote:
I keep hearing about how some mixing engineers like to put all the drums in
1 group and squash them. I'd like to know more about this practice.

The general practice that you are asking about is what I call a
compression bus, and generally goes like this:

You assign your drums to the stereo Left/Right mix as usual. Then, you
also assign some/all of those tracks to an alternate bus with heavy
compression on it. I prefer to use a stereo aux send for this purpose.
If you are using a console, you can use a stereo aux send or 2 mono
sends. If you are short on sends on your analog console, you will need
to use a stereo pair of busses. It is preferable to use aux sends as
that will give you the ability to send a different drum mix to the
compression bus than what you are sending to the L/R mix.

So, let's say you are using a stereo aux send for your compression bus.
The stereo aux send will feed a stereo compressor that you will then
return to a stereo channel that is assigned to the main L/R mix. In my
experience the compressor is set with a fairly high ratio with pretty
heavy gain reduction. I usually start at 8:1 and about -10db of gain
reduction. I generally don't send overheads to the the compression bus.
In my experience, they become too splashy. I will send a healthy dose of
kick and snare, and usually toms.

You then just play with the mix of drums to the compressor and adjust
the amount of compression and blend to taste. The blend is achieved by
increasing, or decreasing the return from the compressor, or in other
words, the channel that the compression bus is returned to.

Hope that helps.

--
Eric

Practice Your Mixing Skills
Download Our Multi-Track Masters
www.Raw-Tracks.com
www.Mad-Host.com

[Jay[_2_]]

Hi Eric (and Scott),

Thanks for the replies. Follow-up question : Why do engineers group their
drums parts together before compressing them? Why not apply an individual
compressor on each track (kick, snare, toms), instead of one compressor for
all 3?

I mean besides the CPU load being lightened, what other advantage is there
to this method? Does putting all your drums in one compressed plate help the
sound? Is that why engineers give up the freedom and control of having a
different compressor on each individual drum instrument requiring
compression?


"Raw-Tracks" wrote in message
et...

The general practice that you are asking about is what I call a
compression bus, and generally goes like this:

You assign your drums to the stereo Left/Right mix as usual. Then, you
also assign some/all of those tracks to an alternate bus with heavy
compression on it. I prefer to use a stereo aux send for this purpose. If
you are using a console, you can use a stereo aux send or 2 mono sends. If
you are short on sends on your analog console, you will need to use a
stereo pair of busses. It is preferable to use aux sends as that will give
you the ability to send a different drum mix to the compression bus than
what you are sending to the L/R mix.

So, let's say you are using a stereo aux send for your compression bus.
The stereo aux send will feed a stereo compressor that you will then
return to a stereo channel that is assigned to the main L/R mix. In my
experience the compressor is set with a fairly high ratio with pretty
heavy gain reduction. I usually start at 8:1 and about -10db of gain
reduction. I generally don't send overheads to the the compression bus. In
my experience, they become too splashy. I will send a healthy dose of kick
and snare, and usually toms.

You then just play with the mix of drums to the compressor and adjust the
amount of compression and blend to taste. The blend is achieved by
increasing, or decreasing the return from the compressor, or in other
words, the channel that the compression bus is returned to.

Hope that helps.

--
Eric

Practice Your Mixing Skills
Download Our Multi-Track Masters
www.Raw-Tracks.com
www.Mad-Host.com

[ChristopheRonald]

apples and oranges.

just try it out and see what works for you.

i would use one compressor on them all myself so that they all stay
sounding like one drumkit. keep em together ya know?

[Federico]

1) What kind of squashing are we talking about here? Massive or light?
Give me an example of ratio/threshold that could be considered
all-purpose.

Anything from 2:1 with -10 threshold to hard limiting

2) Are we talking floor/toms/snare only, or the cymbals too?

It depends on the effect you want

3) If there are background drum loops supporting the main drumkit, do you
include them in this group as well?

It depends on the effect you want

I know the answer to all of these questions could be "depends on your
tastes", but let's say we base them on yours in order to get some actual
answers. =)

There are 2 main techniques used to compress the drum buss.

The first one is to group all the tracks (maybe not the room mics tracks)
and compress the buss.
You can hear the effect in many albums by listening to the HH: Since the
kick and snare will more then often have a higher level then the HH they
will trigger the compressor "pushing" the HH down in level. The effect is
like the HH is not being played when the kickdrum or snare are played.

The second one (some engineers call this the "invisible" compression) is to
group the drums on 2 separate stereo busses. One buss will not be compressed
while the other will be hard limited (on the compressed buss you may not
want to put the OH). When you mix start with the uncompressed buss and then
add the second buss. This technique works well if you are mixing analog, if
you are mixing in the box be aware of the delay added by the compressor on
the second stereo buss! You will have to compensate that and it's not always
as easy as it seems...
F.

[Chris Whealy]

Jay wrote:
I keep hearing about how some mixing engineers like to put all the drums in 1 group and squash them. I'd like to know more about this practice.

1) What kind of squashing are we talking about here? Massive or light? Give me an example of ratio/threshold that could be considered all-purpose.

I've never found a blanket approach to compression to be successful.
The compressor is a tool that can be used in many different ways. The
skill of mixing comes from understanding how your tools should be used,
then using them appropriately to create the sound you want to hear.

What are you hearing that you like/dislike?
What do you want to hear?

At the end of the day, compression can be used simply to manage volume
peaks or as an effect. Those people who compress drums as a single
group do so because they like the effect it creates rather than because
"that's how drums should be compressed" - mind you, they may have used
this approach so much that that's what they now think...
2) Are we talking floor/toms/snare only, or the cymbals too?

There's the New York Compression trick that can be used on the snare,
but this is using the compressor as an effect to fatten up the sound of
a single drum. Never tried applying this trick to the whole kit.
3) If there are background drum loops supporting the main drumkit, do you include them in this group as well?

Only used a loop in this situation once, and then the loop was created
to sound the way we wanted without having to perform any post-processing
on it. So, in my case, the answer is no.

YMMV

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
But the words of the wise are quiet and few.
---

[Deputy Dumbya Dawg[_2_]]

: Hi Eric (and Scott),
:
: Thanks for the replies. Follow-up question : Why do
engineers group their
: drums parts together before compressing them? Why not
apply an individual
: compressor on each track (kick, snare, toms), instead
of one compressor for
: all 3?
:
: I mean besides the CPU load being lightened, what
other advantage is there
: to this method? Does putting all your drums in one
compressed plate help the
: sound? Is that why engineers give up the freedom and
control of having a
: different compressor on each individual drum
instrument requiring
: compression?


One important thing about doing this "New York
Compression Trick" is that once the track is slammed it
becomes one MORE track in your drum sound rather than
the entire drum sound. Once you smash the kit you tuck
it back in under the regular mixed kit.

Read more about it in Bobby Oswinskies Mixing Engineers
Handbook - New York compression Trick.


peace
dawg

[Scott Dorsey]

In article , Jay wrote:

Thanks for the replies. Follow-up question : Why do engineers group their
drums parts together before compressing them? Why not apply an individual
compressor on each track (kick, snare, toms), instead of one compressor for
all 3?

Well, because when you only have four tracks on the tape machine and one
channel of compression in the studio (which was about typical for a high
end studio when I started out), you don't have the freedom to do that.
That's how this sound got started.

Also, if you compress them together, any ONE drum being hit will reduce
the level of all the others. This adds a sense of cohesiveness to the
drums and tends to make them sound more together.

Compressing them seperately will tend to separate them out from one another,
on the other hand.

I mean besides the CPU load being lightened, what other advantage is there
to this method? Does putting all your drums in one compressed plate help the
sound? Is that why engineers give up the freedom and control of having a
different compressor on each individual drum instrument requiring
compression?

You have all the freedom and control you with with the gain knobs and the
microphone position. More knobs does NOT mean more control.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."