From: "Arny Krueger"
Date: 5/6/2004 1:59 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Stephen Worth wrote:

In article , Arny Krueger
wrote:

You really need to read up on vinyl technology. Loss of high
frequencies and dynamic range on the inner grooves of a LP is
well-understood

You are talking about two different things. Inner groove distortion is
what you are talking about. Inner groove wear caused by tracking
error is what the previous poster was referring to.

The OP said:

"In the olden days, they sometimes used to release a single or two
before the full album came out, and knew they were hits. They also
made turntables which operated correctly, and when you played a record
on one of those the inner tracks had no more distortion than the outer
tracks, and repeated plays did not spoil the grooves on the innermost
tracks. They still make them today. But, then and now, turntables
which work correctly are more expensive and harder to set up."

It is quite clear that the OP mentioned both inner groove distortion and
inner groove wear, not just wear as you've falsely claimed. It's deceptive
of you to claim he was talking about only one of these well-known problems.
Both are inherent in the basic technology. You tried to cover up the
evidence that indicts your false claims by eliminating the OP text.

It turns out that both the distortion and the wear are due to the wavelength
effects of decreasing radius, among other things. Specifically, inner-groove
wear increases because the stylus has effectively become larger, compared to
the wavelengths of the undulations in the grooves. Among other things, the
larger stylus is more prone to "pinch effect".

http://smartdev.com/LT/Align.htm

"A tip of finite radius will vary its depth of penetration according to the
waveform, hence the changing diameter for an exact fit seen in the diagram;
the resulting vertical motion of the stylus, known as pinch effect,
produces."

Furthermore Stephen, your post obfuscates the fact that these effects are
inherent in the geometry of existing LPs, which was the point of my post.
You tried to divide and conqueror by making a false distinction.

We can't fix these geometric effects in most LPs by changing the turntable
because legacy LPs are what they are. Note that S888wheel sensibly points
out that newer LPs can be cut with a larger inner diameter, reducing these
geometric effects to some degree.

To a pretty large degree.



Before you go
deciding that someone must be ignorant or a liar, you might want
to listen to what the other person is saying.

Stephen, given what you deleted because it undermined your false claims,
what I said that you twisted, and what you ignored.... Your post has the
classic appearance of a Morien-style hatchet-job, complete with elimination
of relevant OP text that disembowels your false claims.

Many cheap turntables caused a great deal of damage to inner
grooves because they didn't track as well at that angle as better
designed ones.

Please note that methodologies for designing and building tone arms with
minimal inner groove tracking error have been well-known for at least 40
years. Furthermore, it costs little or nothing more to build a tone arm with
proper geometry, once even mid-fi price levels are reached. If you think
that straight-line tracking is required, consider what the prices of
straight line tracking tone arms were in the days when vinyl was king.









I was not aware of any mid-fi price leveled linear tracking arms that were
actually good though. Linear tracking arms have their own baggage. What
inexpensive (mid fi priced) linear tracking arms are out there that aren't
dogs? Do you know of any?

S888Wheel wrote:
From: "Arny Krueger"
Date: 5/6/2004 1:59 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Stephen Worth wrote:

In article , Arny Krueger
wrote:

You really need to read up on vinyl technology. Loss of high
frequencies and dynamic range on the inner grooves of a LP is
well-understood

You are talking about two different things. Inner groove distortion
is what you are talking about. Inner groove wear caused by tracking
error is what the previous poster was referring to.

The OP said:

"In the olden days, they sometimes used to release a single or two
before the full album came out, and knew they were hits. They also
made turntables which operated correctly, and when you played a
record on one of those the inner tracks had no more distortion than
the outer tracks, and repeated plays did not spoil the grooves on
the innermost tracks. They still make them today. But, then and now,
turntables which work correctly are more expensive and harder to set
up."

It is quite clear that the OP mentioned both inner groove distortion
and inner groove wear, not just wear as you've falsely claimed. It's
deceptive of you to claim he was talking about only one of these
well-known problems. Both are inherent in the basic technology. You
tried to cover up the evidence that indicts your false claims by
eliminating the OP text.

It turns out that both the distortion and the wear are due to the
wavelength effects of decreasing radius, among other things.
Specifically, inner-groove wear increases because the stylus has
effectively become larger, compared to the wavelengths of the
undulations in the grooves. Among other things, the larger stylus is
more prone to "pinch effect".

http://smartdev.com/LT/Align.htm

"A tip of finite radius will vary its depth of penetration according
to the waveform, hence the changing diameter for an exact fit seen
in the diagram; the resulting vertical motion of the stylus, known
as pinch effect, produces."

Furthermore Stephen, your post obfuscates the fact that these
effects are inherent in the geometry of existing LPs, which was the
point of my post. You tried to divide and conqueror by making a
false distinction.

We can't fix these geometric effects in most LPs by changing the
turntable because legacy LPs are what they are. Note that S888wheel
sensibly points out that newer LPs can be cut with a larger inner
diameter, reducing these geometric effects to some degree.

To a pretty large degree.



Before you go
deciding that someone must be ignorant or a liar, you might want
to listen to what the other person is saying.

Stephen, given what you deleted because it undermined your false
claims, what I said that you twisted, and what you ignored.... Your
post has the classic appearance of a Morien-style hatchet-job,
complete with elimination of relevant OP text that disembowels your
false claims.

Many cheap turntables caused a great deal of damage to inner
grooves because they didn't track as well at that angle as better
designed ones.

Please note that methodologies for designing and building tone arms
with minimal inner groove tracking error have been well-known for at
least 40 years. Furthermore, it costs little or nothing more to
build a tone arm with proper geometry, once even mid-fi price levels
are reached. If you think that straight-line tracking is required,
consider what the prices of straight line tracking tone arms were in
the days when vinyl was king.

I was not aware of any mid-fi price leveled linear tracking arms that
were actually good though. Linear tracking arms have their own
baggage. What inexpensive (mid fi priced) linear tracking arms are
out there that aren't dogs? Do you know of any?

Nothing new!

Perfectionists like to turn their noses up at the clutch of mid-fi
linear-tracking arms, many integrated with turntables, that came out in the
late 70s and early 80s. OTOH, many people have reported that they were
happy with them. They clearly addressed the geometry problem.

Agreed that tracking arms at a wide variety of price levels often introduce
serious issues of their own.