[Ian Bell]

Scott Fraser wrote:


Yes, although there are transformerless mic pres which are far quieter
than Rupert Neve's typical designs.

Scott Fraser

Yes and no. Many current transformerless designs will achieve a better noise
figure then Neve designs of 30 years ago *under the conditions of
measurement* which usually means maximum gain. I'll even ignore the fact
that most Neve mic pres had 10dB more maximum gain than most current
designs and a few dBs more headroom. The point I want to make is that the
measurement conditions bear little relation to the operating conditions the
pre will normally be used under. At more normal gain settings the better
gain structure and lower output noise of a Neve mean the achieved S/N of
the Neve is better.

Lastly I would disagree that transformerlees mic pres are *far* quieter than
Rupert's typical designs. Rupert's designs achieved typical noise figures
of 4dB at maximum gain. I doubt the best of today's designs achieve better
than 1dB noise figure so at best they can be 3dB quieter.

IAn

[Scott Fraser]

Yes and no. Many current transformerless designs will achieve a better noise
figure then Neve designs of 30 years ago *under the conditions of
measurement* which usually means maximum gain.

That would be the conditions I'm referencing. RCA 77DXs on strings,
Neve 31105s at 65 to 70 db gain. Basically too noisy to use as
recorded.

I'll even ignore the fact
that most Neve mic pres had 10dB more maximum gain than most current
designs and a few dBs more headroom. The point I want to make is that the
measurement conditions bear little relation to the operating conditions the
pre will normally be used under. At more normal gain settings the better
gain structure and lower output noise of a Neve mean the achieved S/N of
the Neve is better.

Since we're talking ribbon mic application here, I think maximum gain
must be assumed.

Lastly I would disagree that transformerlees mic pres are *far* quieter than
Rupert's typical designs.

I didn't generalize about all transformerless designs, just that there
are those which are quieter.

Rupert's designs achieved typical noise figures
of 4dB at maximum gain. I doubt the best of today's designs achieve better
than 1dB noise figure so at best they can be 3dB quieter.

3 db is what I feel is fairly substantial, & pretty well matches my
anecdotal experiences using ribbons with Neve 31105s & 1081s, as well
as Neve-designed Focusrites, compared to Millennia & GML
transformerless designs.

Scott Fraser