"Sandman" wrote in message ...

So what threat does Sacky really think that loving gay couple living down
the block personally poses to him, especially if they hold a marriage
license and perhaps an adopted child in their hands?

There is the question. Should a gay couple be allowed to adopt?

While I think in general, there is nothing that prevents a gay couple
from being good parents, I must raise this question. Why should the
poor defenseless child who has no choice in this matter, suffer the
undeniable social stigma of having gay parents?

And don't try to deny the horrors of abuse the other children will
heap upon these poor kids. It will happen and there isn't a damn
thing you idealistic liberals can do about it. Is it right? No. Is it
real? Yes.

Gay unions, fine. Adoption? No, Not yet. Perhaps foster care is a
better trial run at gay parenting.

ScottW

There is the question. Should a gay couple be allowed to adopt?

While I think in general, there is nothing that prevents a gay couple
from being good parents, I must raise this question. Why should the
poor defenseless child who has no choice in this matter, suffer the
undeniable social stigma of having gay parents?


The fatc that it is a stigma is IMO a problem with those who make it so. This
is an unfortunate issue when people adopt children of another race. One could
ask the question of Muslims given the common dislike for Muslims. I think the
answer is simple. Fear of prejudice should have no bearing on the issue.


And don't try to deny the horrors of abuse the other children will
heap upon these poor kids.

People who commit such horrors of abuse are the real problem and they are the
one who should be punished for creating such horrors.

It will happen and there isn't a damn
thing you idealistic liberals can do about it. Is it right? No. Is it
real? Yes.

Yes, people do bad things but there is something that can be done about it.
Hate crimes can be addressed by the justice system as well as any other crime.
People do get away with crimes but that is not a reason to give up on fighting
it nor is it a reason to run and hide under a rock.



Gay unions, fine. Adoption? No, Not yet. Perhaps foster care is a
better trial run at gay parenting.


Because of fear of prejudice? I think not.

(S888Wheel) wrote in message ...

There is the question. Should a gay couple be allowed to adopt?

While I think in general, there is nothing that prevents a gay couple
from being good parents, I must raise this question. Why should the
poor defenseless child who has no choice in this matter, suffer the
undeniable social stigma of having gay parents?


The fatc that it is a stigma is IMO a problem with those who make it so. This
is an unfortunate issue when people adopt children of another race. One could
ask the question of Muslims given the common dislike for Muslims. I think the
answer is simple. Fear of prejudice should have no bearing on the issue.

Idealism rarely has any bearing on reality.


And don't try to deny the horrors of abuse the other children will
heap upon these poor kids.

People who commit such horrors of abuse are the real problem and they are the
one who should be punished for creating such horrors.

That would be the other children.



It will happen and there isn't a damn
thing you idealistic liberals can do about it. Is it right? No. Is it
real? Yes.

Yes, people do bad things but there is something that can be done about it.
Hate crimes can be addressed by the justice system as well as any other crime.

There is no justice system for hate crimes in our public schools.


People do get away with crimes but that is not a reason to give up on fighting
it nor is it a reason to run and hide under a rock.





Gay unions, fine. Adoption? No, Not yet. Perhaps foster care is a
better trial run at gay parenting.


Because of fear of prejudice? I think not.

I don't fear prejudice. I fear for the children who must bear the
burden of your idealism.

ScottW

For today's class, let us analyze the below:

From:

While I think in general, there is nothing that prevents a gay couple
from being good parents, I must raise this question. Why should the
poor defenseless child who has no choice in this matter, suffer the
undeniable social stigma of having gay parents?


Let's change one word and expose this thinking (sic) for what is:

"While I think in general, there is nothing that prevents an *inter-racial*
couple
from being good parents, I must raise this question. Why should the
poor defenseless child who has no choice in this matter, suffer the
undeniable social stigma of having *inter-racial* parents?"

Class (as well as bigoted, muddle-headed inane logic) dismissed

Professor Midnite

Professor Midnite wrote:

"While I think in general, there is nothing that prevents an *inter-racial*
couple
from being good parents, I must raise this question. Why should the
poor defenseless child who has no choice in this matter, suffer the
undeniable social stigma of having *inter-racial* parents?"

Class (as well as bigoted, muddle-headed inane logic) dismissed

Amen

All that really matters is that you have a parent(or two or an extended
family or sometihng simmilar - the more the better, of course) that
loves and cares for the child more than they do for themselves.

Most gay or lesbian couples get around this by having a child
themselves - either giving birth to or getting a surrogate to
help out. Then there's no legal problems.

"Professor Midnite" wrote in message
...
For today's class, let us analyze the below:

From:

While I think in general, there is nothing that prevents a gay couple
from being good parents, I must raise this question. Why should the
poor defenseless child who has no choice in this matter, suffer the
undeniable social stigma of having gay parents?


Let's change one word and expose this thinking (sic) for what is:

"While I think in general, there is nothing that prevents an
*inter-racial*
couple
from being good parents, I must raise this question. Why should the
poor defenseless child who has no choice in this matter, suffer the
undeniable social stigma of having *inter-racial* parents?"

Class (as well as bigoted, muddle-headed inane logic) dismissed

Professor Midnite

BINGO!

I know several gay and lesbian couples who have adopted children from Russia
and Guatemala and (1) they make wonderful parents, (2) the children are very
happy and outgoing, (3) they suffer no "horrors" from any kind of
abusiveness at their schools - Scott is living in the past - parents,
teachers, and children alike are very accepting of gay parents and their
adopted children these days.

Jim Sanders wrote:


"Professor Midnite" wrote in message
...
For today's class, let us analyze the below:

From:

While I think in general, there is nothing that prevents a gay couple
from being good parents, I must raise this question. Why should the
poor defenseless child who has no choice in this matter, suffer the
undeniable social stigma of having gay parents?


Let's change one word and expose this thinking (sic) for what is:

"While I think in general, there is nothing that prevents an
*inter-racial*
couple
from being good parents, I must raise this question. Why should the
poor defenseless child who has no choice in this matter, suffer the
undeniable social stigma of having *inter-racial* parents?"

Class (as well as bigoted, muddle-headed inane logic) dismissed

Professor Midnite

BINGO!

I know several gay and lesbian couples who have adopted children from Russia
and Guatemala and (1) they make wonderful parents, (2) the children are very
happy and outgoing, (3) they suffer no "horrors" from any kind of
abusiveness at their schools - Scott is living in the past - parents,
teachers, and children alike are very accepting of gay parents and their
adopted children these days.










I would hope that the majority of us have moved beyond the intolerance of gay,
inter-racial, or inter-religious couples bringing up children or doing anything
else that is legal, for that matter.



Bruce J. Richman

"Sandman" wrote in message
...

- Scott is living in the past - parents,
teachers, and children alike are very accepting of gay parents and their
adopted children these days.

You have no children and have no idea of the horrors
children inflict on one another.
Take your false idealism and blow it up the
sodomized asses of the kids at Ranch Bernardo High School.
A very upscale priviledged kids school I might add.

ScottW

On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 22:12:32 -0800, "ScottW"
wrote:

- Scott is living in the past - parents,
teachers, and children alike are very accepting of gay parents and their
adopted children these days.

You have no children and have no idea of the horrors
children inflict on one another.

Wow, I didn't know that your kids had been so traumatized.

I understand your bitterness now.

"dave weil" wrote in message

On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 22:12:32 -0800, "ScottW"
wrote:

- Scott is living in the past - parents,
teachers, and children alike are very accepting of gay parents and
their adopted children these days.

You have no children and have no idea of the horrors
children inflict on one another.

Wow, I didn't know that your kids had been so traumatized.

I understand your bitterness now.

Pretty amazing how you avoided having a childhood, Weil.

Pretty amazing how you avoided having a childhood, Weil.

Not all of us were traumatized while growing up. I am sorry if it happened to
you.

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 19:28:57 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

- Scott is living in the past - parents,
teachers, and children alike are very accepting of gay parents and
their adopted children these days.

You have no children and have no idea of the horrors
children inflict on one another.

Wow, I didn't know that your kids had been so traumatized.

I understand your bitterness now.

Pretty amazing how you avoided having a childhood, Weil.

Maybe it's amazing to you that I didn't have a horror-influenced
childhood. I'm sorry that *you* seem so used to the "horrors inflicted
on children". I have to ask why.

"ScottW" wrote in message
news:LXB_b.6840$aZ3.2820@fed1read04...

"Sandman" wrote in message
...

- Scott is living in the past - parents,
teachers, and children alike are very accepting of gay parents and their
adopted children these days.

You have no children and have no idea of the horrors
children inflict on one another.
Take your false idealism and blow it up the
sodomized asses of the kids at Ranch Bernardo High School.
A very upscale priviledged kids school I might add.

I have a lot more experience with people from all backgrounds, and with
children in particular, than you'd ever imagine in your wildest dreams. And
from seeing what a lousy father you are, you're hardly one to be
pontificating about children.

Sure, there are isolated incidents of hate crimes in our schools -
Columbine, etc. The children apparently learn to hate from their parents,
either directly or through neglect. Good parents do not produce hateful
children.

"Sandman" wrote in message ...
"ScottW" wrote in message
news:LXB_b.6840$aZ3.2820@fed1read04...

"Sandman" wrote in message
...

- Scott is living in the past - parents,
teachers, and children alike are very accepting of gay parents and their
adopted children these days.

You have no children and have no idea of the horrors
children inflict on one another.
Take your false idealism and blow it up the
sodomized asses of the kids at Ranch Bernardo High School.
A very upscale priviledged kids school I might add.

I have a lot more experience with people from all backgrounds, and with
children in particular, than you'd ever imagine in your wildest dreams. And
from seeing what a lousy father you are, you're hardly one to be
pontificating about children.

More bull**** from the insecure. You're the guy who can't leave the
house for a half without checking in, some trust.


Sure, there are isolated incidents of hate crimes in our schools -
Columbine, etc. The children apparently learn to hate from their parents,
either directly or through neglect. Good parents do not produce hateful
children.

Irrelevant. Let's say it's 1960 and a black family has moved into
the neighborhood and your kid is playing with thiers, no problem.
Then you find out they've had threats of shooting, burning, and other
horrible crimes. Do you send your kid over to his to spend the night
in those circumstances?
You have to question, Is adoption to gay parents in the best interest
of children at this point in development of our society? And don't
tell me there are American kids who need adoption Mr. GoingtoRussia to
adopt.

ScottW

Irrelevant. Let's say it's 1960 and a black family has moved into
the neighborhood

Not possible for the most part but anyway....

and your kid is playing with thiers, no problem.
Then you find out they've had threats of shooting, burning, and other
horrible crimes. Do you send your kid over to his to spend the night
in those circumstances?

I call the police and I stand right out on their front lawn and let everyone
know I think such threats are bull**** acts of bigotry. C'mon. Should Martin
Luther King Jr. not have spoken up? He was killed for it. Did all the people
who fought for civil rights do the wrong thing? It isn't allways easy to do the
right thing.

You have to question, Is adoption to gay parents in the best interest
of children at this point in development of our society?

That would be like questioning wheher or not those who fought and died for
civil liberties did the right thing IMO.

And don't
tell me there are American kids who need adoption Mr. GoingtoRussia to
adopt.


There are a lot of kids in need of adoption. That is a fact.

Irrelevant. Let's say it's 1960 and a black family has moved into
the neighborhood and your kid is playing with thiers, no problem.
Then you find out they've had threats of shooting, burning, and other
horrible crimes. Do you send your kid over to his to spend the night
in those circumstances?

First off, I'd be over there helping them install a security system.
I'd be the first one there as well to help fight off the Klan
members if they try anything. I have a deep loathing for such
things. It's fine if you THINK it of FEEL it, but keep your
antiquated ideas to yourself.

You have to question, Is adoption to gay parents in the best interest
of children at this point in development of our society? And don't
tell me there are American kids who need adoption Mr. GoingtoRussia to
adopt.

Compared to foster homes? Absolutely. Thousands of children are
in such programs and we need all the willing volunteers that we
can get.

"ScottW" wrote in message
om...
"Sandman" wrote in message
...
"ScottW" wrote in message
news:LXB_b.6840$aZ3.2820@fed1read04...

"Sandman" wrote in message
...

- Scott is living in the past - parents,
teachers, and children alike are very accepting of gay parents and
their
adopted children these days.

You have no children and have no idea of the horrors
children inflict on one another.
Take your false idealism and blow it up the
sodomized asses of the kids at Ranch Bernardo High School.
A very upscale priviledged kids school I might add.

I have a lot more experience with people from all backgrounds, and with
children in particular, than you'd ever imagine in your wildest dreams.
And
from seeing what a lousy father you are, you're hardly one to be
pontificating about children.

More bull**** from the insecure. You're the guy who can't leave the
house for a half without checking in, some trust.


Sure, there are isolated incidents of hate crimes in our schools -
Columbine, etc. The children apparently learn to hate from their
parents,
either directly or through neglect. Good parents do not produce hateful
children.

Irrelevant. Let's say it's 1960 and a black family has moved into
the neighborhood and your kid is playing with thiers, no problem.
Then you find out they've had threats of shooting, burning, and other
horrible crimes. Do you send your kid over to his to spend the night
in those circumstances?
You have to question, Is adoption to gay parents in the best interest
of children at this point in development of our society? And don't
tell me there are American kids who need adoption Mr. GoingtoRussia to
adopt.

I thought his wife was pregnant.




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"ScottW" wrote in message
news:LXB_b.6840$aZ3.2820@fed1read04...

"Sandman" wrote in message
...

- Scott is living in the past - parents,
teachers, and children alike are very accepting of gay parents and their
adopted children these days.

You have no children and have no idea of the horrors
children inflict on one another.
Take your false idealism and blow it up the
sodomized asses of the kids at Ranch Bernardo High School.
A very upscale priviledged kids school I might add.

what happened there? I remember it was the site of the
panties checking incidents last year. A female "vice" principal
checked to see that the prom girls were wearing proper panties.
And it is Rancho Bernardo.




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"Sockpuppet Yustabe" wrote in message
...

"ScottW" wrote in message
news:LXB_b.6840$aZ3.2820@fed1read04...

"Sandman" wrote in message
...

- Scott is living in the past - parents,
teachers, and children alike are very accepting of gay parents and
their
adopted children these days.

You have no children and have no idea of the horrors
children inflict on one another.
Take your false idealism and blow it up the
sodomized asses of the kids at Ranch Bernardo High School.
A very upscale priviledged kids school I might add.

what happened there? I remember it was the site of the
panties checking incidents last year. A female "vice" principal
checked to see that the prom girls were wearing proper panties.
And it is Rancho Bernardo.

The year before a group of football players got kicked off the team
for a hazing incident that went to far with a broom.

ScottW

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 22:01:52 -0800, "ScottW"
wrote:

The year before a group of football players got kicked off the team
for a hazing incident that went to far with a broom.

So, they had gay parents, did they?

lete (Professor Midnite) wrote in message ...
For today's class, let us analyze the below:

From:

While I think in general, there is nothing that prevents a gay couple
from being good parents, I must raise this question. Why should the
poor defenseless child who has no choice in this matter, suffer the
undeniable social stigma of having gay parents?


Let's change one word and expose this thinking (sic) for what is:

"While I think in general, there is nothing that prevents an *inter-racial*
couple
from being good parents, I must raise this question. Why should the
poor defenseless child who has no choice in this matter, suffer the
undeniable social stigma of having *inter-racial* parents?"

It is a fair point however at this point in time, male gay parents
cannot procreate and must adopt. This creates a significant difference
between inter-racial parents and male gay parents. I believe there was
a transition period during the repeal of laws against inter-racial
marriages where inter-racial adoption was restricted. I am not
suggesting that society won't be ready for gay parents, I am
suggesting that our society might not be ready today.
We are talking about putting children at the forefront of this civil
rights movement, which I think calls for additional caution.


Class (as well as bigoted, muddle-headed inane logic) dismissed

I raise a real point for discussion without denigrating anyones
lifestyle
and I get insults in return.

So much for allowing open free discussion of issues without
incrimination and retribution.

Bigots against free exchange of thoughts and ideas and concerns can
stick their heads in their asses and eat **** AFAIAC.

ScottW

From:

Bigots against free exchange of thoughts and ideas and concerns can
stick their heads in their asses and eat **** AFAIAC.

I find the appellation and concomitant sentiment as flattering as if it had
come from either a Holocaust denier or a White Supremacist whose 'free exchange
of ideas' are only slightly more offensive than yours, thanks.

Class (and Scott) Dismissed

Professor Midnite

"Professor Midnite" wrote in message
...


From:

Bigots against free exchange of thoughts and ideas and concerns can
stick their heads in their asses and eat **** AFAIAC.

I find the appellation and concomitant sentiment as flattering as if it
had
come from either a Holocaust denier or a White Supremacist whose 'free
exchange
of ideas' are only slightly more offensive than yours, thanks.

Or those who find the expressions of nude art offensive.

No one made you the supreme judge of what is offensive.
I don't care if you find my concerns for the children offensive
or not, take your insults and denigration and choke on it.

ScottW

From: "ScottW"


Pay attention, class. Here we have a homophobic bigot using children as 'human
shields' to cover his bigotry and self-loathing. It won't do.

Professor Midnite

It is a fair point however at this point in time, male gay parents
cannot procreate and must adopt.

Actually they can procreate just as well as heterosexual males provided they
are fertile.




This creates a significant difference
between inter-racial parents and male gay parents.

I don't think so given the issue was couples adopting. I don't see how the
ability or willingness to procreate should or would affect the issue of who
should and should not be adopting children.

I believe there was
a transition period during the repeal of laws against inter-racial
marriages where inter-racial adoption was restricted.

Such laws were basically wrong just as the laws prohibiting inter-racial
marriage were basically wrong.


I am not
suggesting that society won't be ready for gay parents, I am
suggesting that our society might not be ready today.

Then they should get ready. The same arguments were made in support of
segregation back during the civil rights movement of the sixties. aren't we all
glad those people who made such arguments lost those arguments?

We are talking about putting children at the forefront of this civil
rights movement, which I think calls for additional caution.


I understand your concern but I think it is simply a profound mistake to give
into the bullies who wish to stop social progress.


Class (as well as bigoted, muddle-headed inane logic) dismissed

I raise a real point for discussion without denigrating anyones
lifestyle
and I get insults in return.

So much for allowing open free discussion of issues without
incrimination and retribution.

Bigots against free exchange of thoughts and ideas and concerns can
stick their heads in their asses and eat **** AFAIAC.

It is a fair point however at this point in time, male gay parents
cannot procreate and must adopt. This creates a significant difference
between inter-racial parents and male gay parents. I believe there was
a transition period during the repeal of laws against inter-racial
marriages where inter-racial adoption was restricted. I am not
suggesting that society won't be ready for gay parents, I am
suggesting that our society might not be ready today.
We are talking about putting children at the forefront of this civil
rights movement, which I think calls for additional caution.

ScottW

Actually, for about $10K, or so , you can get an anonymous egg donor
and pay for the fertilization then implant it into a surrogate mother.
Costs incured for the 99 months by the woman also are on topof that.

But it will be 50% yours and nobody else will have legal claim to
the child anymore than if a woman went to a sperm bank.

Joseph Oberlander wrote in message link.net...
It is a fair point however at this point in time, male gay parents
cannot procreate and must adopt. This creates a significant difference
between inter-racial parents and male gay parents. I believe there was
a transition period during the repeal of laws against inter-racial
marriages where inter-racial adoption was restricted. I am not
suggesting that society won't be ready for gay parents, I am
suggesting that our society might not be ready today.
We are talking about putting children at the forefront of this civil
rights movement, which I think calls for additional caution.

ScottW

Actually, for about $10K, or so , you can get an anonymous egg donor
and pay for the fertilization then implant it into a surrogate mother.
Costs incured for the 99 months by the woman also are on topof that.

But it will be 50% yours and nobody else will have legal claim to
the child anymore than if a woman went to a sperm bank.

This is the kind of crap that leads to 70+ year old parents of teenagers.
Just because you can doesn't make it right.

ScottW

On 24 Feb 2004 12:08:08 -0800, (ScottW) wrote:

Joseph Oberlander wrote in message link.net...
It is a fair point however at this point in time, male gay parents
cannot procreate and must adopt. This creates a significant difference
between inter-racial parents and male gay parents. I believe there was
a transition period during the repeal of laws against inter-racial
marriages where inter-racial adoption was restricted. I am not
suggesting that society won't be ready for gay parents, I am
suggesting that our society might not be ready today.
We are talking about putting children at the forefront of this civil
rights movement, which I think calls for additional caution.

ScottW

Actually, for about $10K, or so , you can get an anonymous egg donor
and pay for the fertilization then implant it into a surrogate mother.
Costs incured for the 99 months by the woman also are on topof that.

But it will be 50% yours and nobody else will have legal claim to
the child anymore than if a woman went to a sperm bank.

This is the kind of crap that leads to 70+ year old parents of teenagers.
Just because you can doesn't make it right.

Boy, you sure have a lot of strictures on having a family. I guess if
they don't do it like *you* do it, it's wrong...

This is the kind of crap that leads to 70+ year old parents of teenagers.
Just because you can doesn't make it right.


It's "wrong" for teenagers to have 70+ year old parents? Sounds like a facist
belief to me.

"S888Wheel" wrote in message
...

This is the kind of crap that leads to 70+ year old parents of
teenagers.
Just because you can doesn't make it right.


It's "wrong" for teenagers to have 70+ year old parents? Sounds like a
facist
belief to me

Yes it is, shame on those kids, they should know better.




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ScottW wrote:


But it will be 50% yours and nobody else will have legal claim to
the child anymore than if a woman went to a sperm bank.


This is the kind of crap that leads to 70+ year old parents of teenagers.
Just because you can doesn't make it right.

Huh? If a person wants a child, and is young enough to be able to
live until it is an adult and on its own, who are we to deny them
that? That their partner is gay or not is immaterial.

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
ink.net...

It is a fair point however at this point in time, male gay parents
cannot procreate and must adopt. This creates a significant difference
between inter-racial parents and male gay parents. I believe there was
a transition period during the repeal of laws against inter-racial
marriages where inter-racial adoption was restricted. I am not
suggesting that society won't be ready for gay parents, I am
suggesting that our society might not be ready today.
We are talking about putting children at the forefront of this civil
rights movement, which I think calls for additional caution.

ScottW

Actually, for about $10K, or so , you can get an anonymous egg donor
and pay for the fertilization then implant it into a surrogate mother.
Costs incured for the 99 months by the woman also are on topof that.

But it will be 50% yours and nobody else will have legal claim to
the child anymore than if a woman went to a sperm bank.


sounds like quite a valuable commodity.




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ScottW wrote:

While I think in general, there is nothing that prevents a gay couple
from being good parents, I must raise this question. Why should the
poor defenseless child who has no choice in this matter, suffer the
undeniable social stigma of having gay parents?

Replace mixed racial or religous marriage and subtract 50 years and
you get the exact same question.