We're upgrading the vocal mikes for my band. Aggressive Country, heavy on
vocals. I'm thinking of getting 3 Shure Beta87a's. Any opinions on these? Do
you think it's worth paying an extra $100 per mike to get the regular
SM87a's. What about the SM86, it's a lot cheaper? Anyone with any alternate
suggestions?

Romeo Rondeau wrote:
We're upgrading the vocal mikes for my band. Aggressive Country, heavy on
vocals. I'm thinking of getting 3 Shure Beta87a's. Any opinions on these? Do
you think it's worth paying an extra $100 per mike to get the regular
SM87a's. What about the SM86, it's a lot cheaper? Anyone with any alternate
suggestions?

They all sound different, but they all have decent patterns.
But in that range I'd suggest trying all of the above, and also the AKG D880
and (if you can find one), the Sennheiser e855 (now discontinued). Stay away
from the e835.

If you have vocalists who are used to wider microphones, they might take a
little time to get used to the technique of dealing with something more
directional. But directionality and smooth response off-axis is a lot of
what makes a better PA mike better, since it results in more gain before
feedback.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Romeo Rondeau wrote:
We're upgrading the vocal mikes for my band. Aggressive Country, heavy on
vocals. I'm thinking of getting 3 Shure Beta87a's. Any opinions on these?
Do
you think it's worth paying an extra $100 per mike to get the regular
SM87a's. What about the SM86, it's a lot cheaper? Anyone with any
alternate
suggestions?

They all sound different, but they all have decent patterns.
But in that range I'd suggest trying all of the above, and also the AKG
D880
and (if you can find one), the Sennheiser e855 (now discontinued). Stay
away
from the e835.

I'm looking at uni-directional condensers at this point (hyper, super or
standard cardiod doesn't matter to me... we eat the mikes, but we need a
relatively tight pattern when we are using wedges, I compress the vocals
slightly and it makes us a little more prone to feedback with the wedges and
I don't like to use the feedback exterminator thingy in the Driverack), as a
general rule I hate dynamics on vocals, although I'm open to suggestions.
Thanks for the advice and the swift reply. I'm not as familiar with PA mikes
as I am with studio mikes.

Romeo Rondeau wrote:

We're upgrading the vocal mikes for my band. Aggressive Country, heavy on
vocals. I'm thinking of getting 3 Shure Beta87a's.

Drummer I work with has one for vox. It's ... okay.
He uses a keyboard amp for a monitor, and gets no,
none, nada, zippo feedback. He does get a lotta
snare in it, though...

It's a little blah , to me. Then again, I like the
presence bump on an SM57 for live on
cheap PA. I know, I know...


Any opinions on these? Do
you think it's worth paying an extra $100 per mike to get the regular
SM87a's. What about the SM86, it's a lot cheaper? Anyone with any alternate
suggestions?



Beyer M88, or A/T ATM31a. The 31a is pretty wide pattern -
definitely not a hyper, but they cut through really well
for harmonies. Never had feedback problems with it,
but it probably could. If "Agressive Country" means
"barkin' loud", it might not work...

--
Les Cargill

Beyer M88, or A/T ATM31a. The 31a is pretty wide pattern - definitely not
a hyper, but they cut through really well
for harmonies. Never had feedback problems with it,
but it probably could. If "Agressive Country" means
"barkin' loud", it might not work...

I mean that we sing loud and solid. No wimpy half-assed vocals here :-) We
have an ATM31a laying in the mike box, I'll check it out.

Romeo,

Curious about what mics you've been using (guessing 58s) and what you
don't like about them.

There's really not a lot of difference in price between the sm 87a and
the Beta 87a.
When the Beta 87 first came out, the published pattern showed more of a
presence peak than the sm87, and the bass rolled off at a much higher
frequency. The sound of the mics bore this out. Then Shure changed the
published curve of the sm87, so that it looked more like Beta87, but
the this was a marketing ploy only, as the capsules remained the same.
The new xxA versions of these mics have the same capsules as always, so
I presume the same sound.

I generally use the SM87 & the AKG c535 as my "go to" mics for live
vox. (And both of these are pretty credible instrument mics as well)
If the SM 87 is almost "it", but the vocalist needs a little more
presence, or a little less low end, I'll try the beta 87(assuming the
c535 wasn't cutting it either). In the dynamic category, you might
look at the Audix om5, or the beyer M88/M69 (essentially the same mic,
but the 69 rolls off the low end a bit. The Ev Re-16 is pretty retro
looking, but is a really useful dynamic mic that doesn't sound bad on
anybody, and sounds really good on some.

The SM86 is a rebadged SM96 (a switched version showed up in the Beta
Green line a while back). It has a broader and bigger presence boost
than the Beta87. Never was too fond of it, or the SM85, either (if
memory serves, the 85 was cardioid).

BTW, don't get stuck with the mindset that everybody has to have the
same mic. Try 'em out, and match the mic to the voice.

-glenn

Romeo Rondeau wrote:
We're upgrading the vocal mikes for my band. Aggressive Country, heavy on
vocals. I'm thinking of getting 3 Shure Beta87a's. Any opinions on these? Do
you think it's worth paying an extra $100 per mike to get the regular
SM87a's. What about the SM86, it's a lot cheaper? Anyone with any alternate
suggestions?

Curious about what mics you've been using (guessing 58s) and what you
don't like about them.

Naw, some cheap EV's. Real bland sound (they are aged and worn out)


There's really not a lot of difference in price between the sm 87a and
the Beta 87a.

$100 difference multiplied by 3 mikes.

When the Beta 87 first came out, the published pattern showed more of a
presence peak than the sm87, and the bass rolled off at a much higher
frequency. The sound of the mics bore this out. Then Shure changed the
published curve of the sm87, so that it looked more like Beta87, but
the this was a marketing ploy only, as the capsules remained the same.
The new xxA versions of these mics have the same capsules as always, so
I presume the same sound.

I generally use the SM87 & the AKG c535 as my "go to" mics for live
vox. (And both of these are pretty credible instrument mics as well)
If the SM 87 is almost "it", but the vocalist needs a little more
presence, or a little less low end, I'll try the beta 87(assuming the
c535 wasn't cutting it either). In the dynamic category, you might
look at the Audix om5, or the beyer M88/M69 (essentially the same mic,
but the 69 rolls off the low end a bit. The Ev Re-16 is pretty retro
looking, but is a really useful dynamic mic that doesn't sound bad on
anybody, and sounds really good on some.

The SM86 is a rebadged SM96 (a switched version showed up in the Beta
Green line a while back). It has a broader and bigger presence boost
than the Beta87. Never was too fond of it, or the SM85, either (if
memory serves, the 85 was cardioid).

Ahh...


BTW, don't get stuck with the mindset that everybody has to have the
same mic. Try 'em out, and match the mic to the voice.

I'd like to keep things consistent. I do prefer to keep all the vocal mikes
the same, makes ringing the monitors easier. Guest performers can go where
they want on stage, and aren't always going for the lead singers mike, etc.
Thanks for the input! I'm leaning toward the beta...

Which EVs are you using?

The sm87 & beta 87 had virtually identical dealer ost last time I
looked at a price sheet, although I see the Beta list is now $90 higher
than the SM. A quick check of ebay & google shows either one selling
for between $200 - $275, roughly. I would suppose, based on the sell
pricing, that the cost to dealer is still about the same for either mic

I actually prefer the SM87, I think it's a more versatile mic (and is
generally a better choice for female vox), but who can say for any
given voice? FWIW, you can also get the Beta in a cardioid version,
the 87c. If you haven't tried the c535, you should hear it B4
deciding.

As far as using the same mics .... mic matching for a guest vox is a
total crapshoot anyway, so you might as well have the mic that sounds
best for each of your bandmates. I've never had any particular problem
with feedback due to mix & match mics on stage, but as always, YMMV.

-glenn

On Tue, 6 Jun 2006 21:34:21 -0400, Romeo Rondeau wrote
(in article ):

Romeo Rondeau wrote:
We're upgrading the vocal mikes for my band. Aggressive Country, heavy on
vocals. I'm thinking of getting 3 Shure Beta87a's. Any opinions on these?
Do
you think it's worth paying an extra $100 per mike to get the regular
SM87a's. What about the SM86, it's a lot cheaper? Anyone with any
alternate
suggestions?

They all sound different, but they all have decent patterns.
But in that range I'd suggest trying all of the above, and also the AKG
D880
and (if you can find one), the Sennheiser e855 (now discontinued). Stay
away
from the e835.

I'm looking at uni-directional condensers at this point (hyper, super or
standard cardiod doesn't matter to me... we eat the mikes, but we need a
relatively tight pattern when we are using wedges, I compress the vocals
slightly and it makes us a little more prone to feedback with the wedges and
I don't like to use the feedback exterminator thingy in the Driverack), as a
general rule I hate dynamics on vocals, although I'm open to suggestions.
Thanks for the advice and the swift reply. I'm not as familiar with PA mikes
as I am with studio mikes.



Audio Technica AE5400. If you eat them, engage the high pass filter on the
mic. The Neuman KMS105 is more directional, but you can't eat it unless you
have no balls in your voice.

Ty Ford


-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

Romeo Rondeau wrote:
We're upgrading the vocal mikes for my band. Aggressive Country, heavy on
vocals. I'm thinking of getting 3 Shure Beta87a's. Any opinions on these? On occasions where I've had an assortment of SM58s and Beta87s to work with, I've found that the biggest difference between them is more high end on the 87s, which isn't always an advantage.

One that I don't hear much about other than one friend who has a few of
them is the Rode S1. It looks a bit like, and apparently was designed
to work somewhat like the Neumann KSM105. My friend, who mostly puts on
folk music concerts but occasionally does rock shows, says that he's
found the S1 to work really well with a good singer and really poorly
with a bad (weak, poor mic technique) singer. That sounds like it might
be a decent match given your "agressive" description - if that
describes the band as well as the music.

If you have a dealer who will let you try and return mics, you might
give one or two of those a try.

I have an AT 4054, which looks like the predecessor to the AE5400,
except mine doesn't have a switchable high pass filter (makes sense
that AT would roll the 4054 & 4055 into a single product).

It's a really, really nice mic, but it's a bit more than the price
point of the Beta 87. The Neumann is MUCH more than the price point of
the Shure.

-glenn


Ty Ford wrote:

Audio Technica AE5400. If you eat them, engage the high pass filter on the
mic. The Neuman KMS105 is more directional, but you can't eat it unless you
have no balls in your voice.

Ty Ford

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Romeo Rondeau wrote:
We're upgrading the vocal mikes for my band. Aggressive Country, heavy on
vocals. I'm thinking of getting 3 Shure Beta87a's. Any opinions on these?
Do
you think it's worth paying an extra $100 per mike to get the regular
SM87a's. What about the SM86, it's a lot cheaper? Anyone with any
alternate
suggestions?

They all sound different, but they all have decent patterns.
But in that range I'd suggest trying all of the above, and also the AKG
D880

At this price, they're worth trying:

http://tinyurl.com/ogp8l

Glenn D.

geezer wrote:
I have an AT 4054, which looks like the predecessor to the AE5400,
except mine doesn't have a switchable high pass filter (makes sense
that AT would roll the 4054 & 4055 into a single product).

Yes, that's exactly right. The 5400 uses exactly the same capsule as
the 4054/4055. I don't know how similar the electronics are, but I
suspect that they are reasonably close.

Ty Ford wrote:

Audio Technica AE5400. If you eat them, engage the high pass filter on the
mic. The Neuman KMS105 is more directional, but you can't eat it unless you
have no balls in your voice.


I'll second the Audio Technica AE5400's. My band uses them and they are
amazing. I eat the mic on some stuff, as does my bass player, and
there's no distortion at all.

They are clean, articulate, full bodied and, while a little expensive,
the last wired vocal mic we'll probably ever use. AT mics are quite
robust. I have an old ATM 11 from the late '70's that is still doing
just fine, even after being dropped countless times, subjected to all
kinds of unintended abuse and looks rather a bit ugly, but still sounds
great.

--Fletch

Audio Technica AE5400. If you eat them, engage the high pass filter on the
mic. The Neuman KMS105 is more directional, but you can't eat it unless
you
have no balls in your voice.

I'll look into the AT. The Neumann will be destroyed by us :-) Thanks...

It's a really, really nice mic, but it's a bit more than the price
point of the Beta 87. The Neumann is MUCH more than the price point of
the Shure.

Keep in mind, we have guest singers. That means 2 things. #1, I can't match
mike to voice for these people, they have to just get up and sing (We host
the jam on Sunday's) and #2, they gotta be able to handle beer breath (our
singer drinks non-alcoholic beer, but I drink beer on stage and as for the
guest singers, who knows) This is one of the reasons I'm trying to keep the
cost down somewhat while retaining a decent quality, I know that the mikes
will not last very long in this environment.

One that I don't hear much about other than one friend who has a few of
them is the Rode S1. It looks a bit like, and apparently was designed
to work somewhat like the Neumann KSM105. My friend, who mostly puts on
folk music concerts but occasionally does rock shows, says that he's
found the S1 to work really well with a good singer and really poorly
with a bad (weak, poor mic technique) singer. That sounds like it might
be a decent match given your "agressive" description - if that
describes the band as well as the music.

By aggressive country (probably a local term), I mean country played hard
and fast with loud solid vocals, not like an old "shoes nailed to the floor,
half asleep guys" type country band. We get loud and proud, boys... And it's
not limited to country as we play requests that a lot of times end up being
southern rock and an occasional AC/DC tune. I guess you could call it a
"middle aged rock/ country mix" We had a couple one time that was
celebrating their 40th wedding anniversary that requested Hendrix :-)

Which EVs are you using?

I couldn't tell you without getting into the trailer. They have been used
since before I was involved in the project.


The sm87 & beta 87 had virtually identical dealer ost last time I
looked at a price sheet, although I see the Beta list is now $90 higher
than the SM. A quick check of ebay & google shows either one selling
for between $200 - $275, roughly. I would suppose, based on the sell
pricing, that the cost to dealer is still about the same for either mic

I haven't called my distributor on the price of the mikes, I just looked at
street price online, there is about a $100 difference is this respect.


I actually prefer the SM87, I think it's a more versatile mic (and is
generally a better choice for female vox), but who can say for any
given voice? FWIW, you can also get the Beta in a cardioid version,
the 87c. If you haven't tried the c535, you should hear it B4
deciding.

I never thought about going to an AKG for this type of thing, go figure...


As far as using the same mics .... mic matching for a guest vox is a
total crapshoot anyway, so you might as well have the mic that sounds
best for each of your bandmates. I've never had any particular problem
with feedback due to mix & match mics on stage, but as always, YMMV.

We wear hats, the brims of the hats do some really wierd things like reflect
sound into the mikes from the monitors. It's a cowboy thing :-) Hey, maybe
we could get some hats made out of Sonex :-)

Romeo Rondeau wrote:
It's a really, really nice mic, but it's a bit more than the price
point of the Beta 87. The Neumann is MUCH more than the price point of
the Shure.

Keep in mind, we have guest singers. That means 2 things. #1, I can't match
mike to voice for these people, they have to just get up and sing (We host
the jam on Sunday's) and #2, they gotta be able to handle beer breath (our
singer drinks non-alcoholic beer, but I drink beer on stage and as for the
guest singers, who knows) This is one of the reasons I'm trying to keep the
cost down somewhat while retaining a decent quality, I know that the mikes
will not last very long in this environment.

Try one AKG D880. It's hard to pop... not as hard as the SM-58, but close,
and it's got more top end and is a lot tighter than the SM-58. And you can
find them used for under $50, even on Ebay. Just try one.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."