I'm looking for an ORTF microphone mount for my 2 Audio Technica 4051a's.
Anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks,
Fleming

"fleming" wrote in message
nk.net...
I'm looking for an ORTF microphone mount for my 2 Audio Technica 4051a's.
Anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks,
Fleming
Any dual microphone bar can be used. Carry a protractor and a ruler with you
for setup.

Robert Morein wrote:

"fleming" wrote in message
nk.net...

I'm looking for an ORTF microphone mount for my 2 Audio
Technica 4051a's. Anyone have any suggestions?

Fleming

Any dual microphone bar can be used.

Get one with multiple holes in it or one that is otherwise adjustable.
K&M probably have some, I think Shure also offers one.

Carry a protractor and a ruler with you for setup.

Please explain what to use them for?


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

I use the Shure A27M with mine, check it out. It looks a little strange but
it works very well.

Jeff


I'm looking for an ORTF microphone mount for my 2 Audio Technica 4051a's.
Anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks,
Fleming

Peter Larsen wrote:
Robert Morein wrote:

"fleming" wrote in message
nk.net...

I'm looking for an ORTF microphone mount for my 2 Audio
Technica 4051a's. Anyone have any suggestions?

Fleming

Any dual microphone bar can be used.

Get one with multiple holes in it or one that is otherwise adjustable.
K&M probably have some, I think Shure also offers one.

Carry a protractor and a ruler with you for setup.

Please explain what to use them for?

Well, they are kind of handy to set the mics at 110 degrees inclusive
angle and 17cm between capsule centers.

bobs

Bob Smith
BS Studios
we organize chaos
http://www.bsstudios.com

wrote:


Carry a protractor and a ruler with you for setup.

Please explain what to use them for?

Well, they are kind of handy to set the mics at 110 degrees inclusive
angle and 17cm between capsule centers.


Make a cardboard jig to carry around. Much less fiddly.

geoff

Sabra Som or AKG are much cheaper than the Shure A27M Not terribly
adjustable, but very nice.

--Fletch

wrote:

Carry a protractor and a ruler with you for setup.

Please explain what to use them for?

Well, they are kind of handy to set the mics at 110 degrees
inclusive angle and 17 cm between capsule centers.

Agreed, what can I do but thank you for making a point I would have let
rest, I agree that ORTF is thus defined and that ORFT is only that
setup, wherefore I prefer to use the term XY also for spaced cardioids.
Most people however do nowadays use the term ORTF as a wording for "any
pair of cardioids on a short bar and with any inclusiv angle".

Refencing Michael Williams (I hope I remember this name right) 1983
paper "The Stereophonic Zoom" makes it however obvious that as well
inclusive angle and distance between capsule centers may require
adjustment to suit various intended opening angles for the setup. I have
a nomogram for implementing it, with cardioids as well as with omni's,
designed by a friend of mine, that would be the nomogram to carry around
to get the initial setup fairly right.

For most real world setups involving an audience it is not going to be
possible to get far enough away from the ensemble to use the 110 degrees
inclusive angle and it will then caase a hole in the middle the size of
the average hole in a Hollywood movie script.

Most of the time I end up using an angle in the range from 80 to 45,
depending also on the capsule distance choice, longer distance between
capsules means that less angle should be chosen.

It is mostly about the amount of correlation required to form a good
center image, but also about using the off axis properties of the
capsule pair to get the groundplan correctly drawn in the stereo
perspective, so that rearmost musicians do not all crowd up in the
center.

bobs


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

Peter Larsen wrote:

Agreed, what can I do but thank you for making a point I would have
let rest, I agree that ORTF is thus defined and that ORFT is only that
setup, wherefore I prefer to use the term XY also for spaced
cardioids. Most people however do nowadays use the term ORTF as a
wording for "any pair of cardioids on a short bar and with any
inclusiv angle".

???!!! XY is XY, and in no way vaguely similar to spaced omnis. ORTF is
ORTF and very specific. in no way similar to the other two methods
mentioned.


For most real world setups involving an audience it is not going to be
possible to get far enough away from the ensemble to use the 110
degrees inclusive angle and it will then caase a hole in the middle
the size of the average hole in a Hollywood movie script.

No. It LOOKs like you will get a hole in the middlew, but you don't. Maybe
if you are using soming hyper or super-cariod, but then it's not ORTF.

Most of the time I end up using an angle in the range from 80 to 45,
depending also on the capsule distance choice, longer distance between
capsules means that less angle should be chosen.

I guess that's within allowable tweak range of the definition.



geoff

Peter Larsen wrote:

I prefer to use the term XY also for spaced cardioids.

Which ist incorrect, since XY is clearly defined as conincident
cardioids at (mostly) 90°.

Most people however do nowadays use the term ORTF as a wording for "any
pair of cardioids on a short bar and with any inclusiv angle".

Doesn't make much sense. There are also other clearly defined varieties
(e.g. NOS, 30 cm, 90°)


For most real world setups involving an audience it is not going to be
possible to get far enough away from the ensemble to use the 110 degrees
inclusive angle and it will then caase a hole in the middle the size of
the average hole in a Hollywood movie script.

Hole in the middle is not something you usually get with closely spaced
cardioids AFAIK...


Daniel

"fleming" wrote in message
nk.net

I'm looking for an ORTF microphone mount for my 2 Audio
Technica 4051a's. Anyone have any suggestions?

General purpose mounts for using multiple microphones in a variety of
configurations including ORTF, XY, and MS are sold as:

Press conference microphone holders

Examples:

http://www.markertek.com/p/fullpage.php?page=241

items MA 358 and MA 658

fleming wrote:
I'm looking for an ORTF microphone mount for my 2 Audio Technica 4051a's.
Anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks,
Fleming


http://www.wesdooley.com/aea/Microph...sitioners.html

Peter Larsen wrote:

I agree that ORTF is thus defined [110 degrees, 5" ) and that ORFT is only that
setup, wherefore I prefer to use the term XY also for spaced cardioids.
Most people however do nowadays use the term ORTF as a wording for "any
pair of cardioids on a short bar and with any inclusiv angle".

True, but most people differentiate recognize the difference between
X-Y and ORTF as X-Y being as coincident as mechanically possible and
OTRF having the capsules spaced a few inches apart. X-Y is usually
stated as 90 degrees but that's only theoretically correct with
hypercardiod mics. Cardioid mics want to be angled at 110 degrees. Or
maybe I have that backwards.

But given the vagueness of any directivity pattern. "put them so it
looks right and then listen to hear if it sounds right" is the best
guidance. Whatever you find for a particular pair of mics will almost
always be right for that pair, but you still have to adjust the
distance to get the sound you're after, and that's almost always
different (both distance and sound possibilities) for coincident and
close-spaced mics.

On Sat, 27 May 2006 19:52:55 -0400, fleming wrote
(in article et):

I'm looking for an ORTF microphone mount for my 2 Audio Technica 4051a's.
Anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks,
Fleming



Schoeps makes a very interesting multimount that does 3-4 different setups;
horizontal and vertical.

Regards,

Ty Ford


-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

There are a few to select from. Personally I use a K&M stereo bar and
is happy with that. I always use an extra distance on one of the mics,
as the back ends otherwise gets in each others way. The picture here
shows what I mean:
http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/legacy/130722.pdf

The K&M bar can be seen he
http://www.studiospares.com/pd_40911...EREO%20BAR.htm

The distances can be made from a "large-to-small" converter plus a
"small-to-large".
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?...6&U=shop_FV12N

Gunnar

Peter Larsen wrote:
wrote:

Carry a protractor and a ruler with you for setup.

Please explain what to use them for?

Well, they are kind of handy to set the mics at 110 degrees
inclusive angle and 17 cm between capsule centers.

Agreed, what can I do but thank you for making a point I would have let
rest, I agree that ORTF is thus defined and that ORFT is only that
setup, wherefore I prefer to use the term XY also for spaced cardioids.

snip

For most real world setups involving an audience it is not going to be
possible to get far enough away from the ensemble to use the 110 degrees
inclusive angle and it will then caase a hole in the middle the size of
the average hole in a Hollywood movie script.

The 110 deg is a starting point and sometimes I find myself going down
to 108, 105 or 100 but rarely lower. I'm fortunate that most of the
venues I work have high ceilings which support the tall lighting stands
I prefer to use. Often I have the mics up 20 to 30 feet from the floor.
This has the added benefit of getting the mics AWAY FROM THE AUDIENCE
while in their midst. This attenuates the direct pickup of audience
noise. The whole stand is sandbagged for war, cables gaffed securely
for folks who can't (mobility impaired) or won't (careless) watch where
their feet go. When in a low ceiling venue either adjustment, different
mic technique or some variation is often required.

My favorite stereo mic mount, the Vark bar, can be found he

http://www.posthorn.com/Macvk_4.html

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

bobs

Bob Smith
BS Studios
we organize chaos
http://www.bsstudios.com

"Peter Larsen" wrote in message
...
wrote:

Carry a protractor and a ruler with you for setup.

Please explain what to use them for?

Well, they are kind of handy to set the mics at 110 degrees
inclusive angle and 17 cm between capsule centers.

Agreed, what can I do but thank you for making a point I would have let
rest, I agree that ORTF is thus defined and that ORFT is only that
setup, wherefore I prefer to use the term XY also for spaced cardioids.
Most people however do nowadays use the term ORTF as a wording for "any
pair of cardioids on a short bar and with any inclusiv angle".

It's bad practice to smear terminology. Then, nobody is quite sure what
anybody is talking about.

My favorite stereo mic mount, the Vark bar, can be found he

http://www.posthorn.com/Macvk_4.html

Kind regards


I think this Shure model looks pretty nice:

http://164.109.27.207/accessories/a27m.asp

wrote in message
ups.com...

My favorite stereo mic mount, the Vark bar, can be found he

http://www.posthorn.com/Macvk_4.html

Kind regards


I think this Shure model looks pretty nice:

http://164.109.27.207/accessories/a27m.asp

And it's heavy enough to be useful in fights.

Peace,
Paul

Geoff@home @ wrote:

Peter Larsen wrote:

Agreed, what can I do but thank you for making a point I would have
let rest, I agree that ORTF is thus defined and that ORFT is only that
setup, wherefore I prefer to use the term XY also for spaced
cardioids. Most people however do nowadays use the term ORTF as a
wording for "any pair of cardioids on a short bar and with any
inclusiv angle".

???!!! XY is XY, and in no way vaguely similar to spaced omnis.

Probably why Peter typed "spaced cardioids".

--
ha

Robert Morein wrote:

Carry a protractor and a ruler with you for setup.

Please explain what to use them for?

Well, they are kind of handy to set the mics at 110 degrees
inclusive angle and 17 cm between capsule centers.

Agreed, what can I do but thank you for making a point
I would have let rest, I agree that ORTF is thus defined
and that ORFT is only that setup, wherefore I prefer to
use the term XY also for spaced cardioids. Most people
however do nowadays use the term ORTF as a wording for "any
pair of cardioids on a short bar and with any inclusiv angle".

It's bad practice to smear terminology. Then, nobody is
quite sure what anybody is talking about.

No contest, what term do you then think should be used?


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

hank alrich wrote:

Geoff@home @ wrote:

Peter Larsen wrote:

Agreed, what can I do but thank you for making a point
I would have let rest, I agree that ORTF is thus defined
and that ORFT is only that setup, wherefore I prefer to
use the term XY also for spaced cardioids. Most people
however do nowadays use the term ORTF as a wording for
"any pair of cardioids on a short bar and with any
inclusiv angle".

???!!! XY is XY, and in no way vaguely similar to spaced omnis.

Probably why Peter typed "spaced cardioids".

Yurp, thanks Hank. It is btw. similar to spaced omnis because distance
between capsules is used as a de-correlation measure. Wide cardioids
generally do well with additional distance and/or a larger inclusive
angle.

IMO a pair with zero sideways offset between the capsules, ie. in a one
point setup, is more of a special case than a pair with some distance as
an added means of de-correlating the capsules. The term "one point"
seems to ne excellently suited for a one point setup in as much as the
conversion between xy and ms is very simple and in as much as a one
point mic generally can be used in both modes.

ha


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

"Peter Larsen" wrote in message
...

Agreed, what can I do but thank you for making a point
I would have let rest, I agree that ORTF is thus defined
and that ORFT is only that setup, wherefore I prefer to
use the term XY also for spaced cardioids. Most people
however do nowadays use the term ORTF as a wording for "any
pair of cardioids on a short bar and with any inclusiv angle".

It's bad practice to smear terminology. Then, nobody is
quite sure what anybody is talking about.

No contest, what term do you then think should be used?

"Near-coincident" is pretty widely used for this family of positions.

Peace,
Paul

"Peter Larsen" wrote in message
...
Robert Morein wrote:

Carry a protractor and a ruler with you for setup.

Please explain what to use them for?

Well, they are kind of handy to set the mics at 110 degrees
inclusive angle and 17 cm between capsule centers.

Agreed, what can I do but thank you for making a point
I would have let rest, I agree that ORTF is thus defined
and that ORFT is only that setup, wherefore I prefer to
use the term XY also for spaced cardioids. Most people
however do nowadays use the term ORTF as a wording for "any
pair of cardioids on a short bar and with any inclusiv angle".

It's bad practice to smear terminology. Then, nobody is
quite sure what anybody is talking about.

No contest, what term do you then think should be used?

Looking through 6 tutorials on stereo mike technique, 1 author calls them
quasi-coincident. All the others use the term near-coincident, which is the
term I use.

Norm Strong

fleming wrote:
I'm looking for an ORTF microphone mount for my 2 Audio Technica 4051a's.
Anyone have any suggestions?

The AKG is about twenty bucks and works fine. The Shure is about forty
bucks and is easier to position. The Schoeps is around two hundred bucks
and is easier to position than the Shure.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Peter Larsen wrote:

Agreed, what can I do but thank you for making a point I would have let
rest, I agree that ORTF is thus defined and that ORFT is only that
setup, wherefore I prefer to use the term XY also for spaced cardioids.
Most people however do nowadays use the term ORTF as a wording for "any
pair of cardioids on a short bar and with any inclusiv angle".

Strictly speaking that should be called "near coincident miking" if it
is like that and not precisely ORTF.

Even if you don't use strict ORTF, it's still a good idea to use the
ruler and protractor so you know what you _are_ using, you can write it
on the tape box, and you can repeat it in the future if you need to
record that group again in the same hall.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 30 May 2006 13:16:19 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

Even if you don't use strict ORTF, it's still a good idea to use the
ruler and protractor so you know what you _are_ using, you can write it
on the tape box, and you can repeat it in the future if you need to
record that group again in the same hall.

Better yet, a goniometer. It is a device in orthopedics used to
measure the angle of joints. It looks like two wide rulers joined
together, with angle markings on the "hinge" circle.

I suspect there is a hardware store equivalent, thogh I can't remember
ever seeing one.

(Willie K. Yee, MD) news:447daf4c.77646687
@nntp.bestweb.net:

On 30 May 2006 13:16:19 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

Even if you don't use strict ORTF, it's still a good idea to use the
ruler and protractor so you know what you _are_ using, you can write it
on the tape box, and you can repeat it in the future if you need to
record that group again in the same hall.

Better yet, a goniometer. It is a device in orthopedics used to
measure the angle of joints. It looks like two wide rulers joined
together, with angle markings on the "hinge" circle.

I suspect there is a hardware store equivalent, thogh I can't remember
ever seeing one.



Stanley Quick Square? g

david