I am using a MOTU 896HD with Logic Pro 7.1....I have Tannoy Precision 8D
and System 12 monitors. Presonus C-Station....So whats the best way to
make this system sound like a bigger system....money is not that big of
an issue...I am a composer and producer of R&B/Hip Hop, I use Logic
because I like to create in it. Would a Digi HD system sound
dramatically better? How about a Dangerous 2 bus summing system, maybe
Apogee DA16, Dangerous 2bus, Maybe an older analog console to sum...I
have heard that the digital summing is a weak link...So maybe a small
Neve, API, to sum....Ideas???? My mixes sound good, but not wide or
spacious...

JR

So are you doing mostly electronic music, or do you mic instruments too?
what do you mean by spacious? if you mic instruments, describe your setup,
ie mics/positions, preamps, room.

Fleming

"JR" wrote in message
...
I am using a MOTU 896HD with Logic Pro 7.1....I have Tannoy Precision 8D
and System 12 monitors. Presonus C-Station....So whats the best way to
make this system sound like a bigger system....money is not that big of
an issue...I am a composer and producer of R&B/Hip Hop, I use Logic
because I like to create in it. Would a Digi HD system sound
dramatically better? How about a Dangerous 2 bus summing system, maybe
Apogee DA16, Dangerous 2bus, Maybe an older analog console to sum...I
have heard that the digital summing is a weak link...So maybe a small
Neve, API, to sum....Ideas???? My mixes sound good, but not wide or
spacious...

JR

Mostly eletronic....Programmed drums, sample based, keyboards, that
kinda thing.....the only things mic'd are vocals and maybe acoustic
guitars....when I mean spacious, I mean the stereo image of the mix is
narrow. It also gets "muddy" at times....Reading about analog summing
from a DAW and it seems like it may do the trick, gives a spacious
stereo image, retains punch and clarity....The 2 units that have been
reviewd well are the Dangerous 2 bus and the SPL Mixdream....

JR


In article t,
"fleming" wrote:

So are you doing mostly electronic music, or do you mic instruments too?
what do you mean by spacious? if you mic instruments, describe your setup,
ie mics/positions, preamps, room.

Fleming

"JR" wrote in message
...
I am using a MOTU 896HD with Logic Pro 7.1....I have Tannoy Precision 8D
and System 12 monitors. Presonus C-Station....So whats the best way to
make this system sound like a bigger system....money is not that big of
an issue...I am a composer and producer of R&B/Hip Hop, I use Logic
because I like to create in it. Would a Digi HD system sound
dramatically better? How about a Dangerous 2 bus summing system, maybe
Apogee DA16, Dangerous 2bus, Maybe an older analog console to sum...I
have heard that the digital summing is a weak link...So maybe a small
Neve, API, to sum....Ideas???? My mixes sound good, but not wide or
spacious...

JR

My mixes sound good, but not wide or spacious...

I don't believe that throwing money at a mix is going to give you the
result that you are after.

Don't take this the wrong way but usually it is effective eq and
panning that creates mixes that are wide open.

Chris

In article ,
JR wrote:

I am using a MOTU 896HD with Logic Pro 7.1....I have Tannoy Precision 8D
and System 12 monitors. Presonus C-Station....So whats the best way to
make this system sound like a bigger system....money is not that big of
an issue...I am a composer and producer of R&B/Hip Hop, I use Logic
because I like to create in it. Would a Digi HD system sound
dramatically better? How about a Dangerous 2 bus summing system, maybe
Apogee DA16, Dangerous 2bus, Maybe an older analog console to sum...I
have heard that the digital summing is a weak link...So maybe a small
Neve, API, to sum....Ideas???? My mixes sound good, but not wide or
spacious...

JR


Rather than thinking about buying more stuff, I'd suggest you first
honestly evalutate your control room space. Great monitoring is of
critical importance to creating a better product. It is also something
damn difficult to create.

If you can clearly hear what you don't like, it's much easier to deal
with while the cement is still wet, if ya know what I mean.

If you know someone in your area that has a great control room and knows
their acoustic ****, hire them to come over for a simple consultation
and hear what they say.

I know what a good control rooms sounds like, but I doubt I'd get one by
my own design. But I do know who I would hire. (The guy who built the
space I'm currently in.)

Best of luck.




David Correia
www.Celebrationsound.com




p.s. Besides recording, I also do quite a bit of mastering in this neck
of the woods, and I hear "wide" mixes both from folks who work all
digital and others who use analog consoles.

I've heard great things about the new Neve summing amps - its stackable,
comes with 24 ins I think - and its Neve


"JR" wrote in message
...
Mostly eletronic....Programmed drums, sample based, keyboards, that
kinda thing.....the only things mic'd are vocals and maybe acoustic
guitars....when I mean spacious, I mean the stereo image of the mix is
narrow. It also gets "muddy" at times....Reading about analog summing
from a DAW and it seems like it may do the trick, gives a spacious
stereo image, retains punch and clarity....The 2 units that have been
reviewd well are the Dangerous 2 bus and the SPL Mixdream....

JR


In article t,
"fleming" wrote:

So are you doing mostly electronic music, or do you mic instruments too?
what do you mean by spacious? if you mic instruments, describe your
setup,
ie mics/positions, preamps, room.

Fleming

"JR" wrote in message
...
I am using a MOTU 896HD with Logic Pro 7.1....I have Tannoy Precision 8D
and System 12 monitors. Presonus C-Station....So whats the best way to
make this system sound like a bigger system....money is not that big of
an issue...I am a composer and producer of R&B/Hip Hop, I use Logic
because I like to create in it. Would a Digi HD system sound
dramatically better? How about a Dangerous 2 bus summing system, maybe
Apogee DA16, Dangerous 2bus, Maybe an older analog console to sum...I
have heard that the digital summing is a weak link...So maybe a small
Neve, API, to sum....Ideas???? My mixes sound good, but not wide or
spacious...

JR

On Sat, 27 May 2006 16:55:38 -0700, JR wrote:

I am using a MOTU 896HD with Logic Pro 7.1....I have Tannoy Precision 8D
and System 12 monitors. Presonus C-Station....So whats the best way to
make this system sound like a bigger system....money is not that big of
an issue...I am a composer and producer of R&B/Hip Hop, I use Logic
because I like to create in it. Would a Digi HD system sound
dramatically better? How about a Dangerous 2 bus summing system, maybe
Apogee DA16, Dangerous 2bus, Maybe an older analog console to sum...I
have heard that the digital summing is a weak link...So maybe a small
Neve, API, to sum....Ideas???? My mixes sound good, but not wide or
spacious...

I suspect you need technique rather than equipment. Don't take this
as an insult. We ALL need better technique :-)

In article ,
Laurence Payne lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote:

On Sat, 27 May 2006 16:55:38 -0700, JR wrote:

I am using a MOTU 896HD with Logic Pro 7.1....I have Tannoy Precision 8D
and System 12 monitors. Presonus C-Station....So whats the best way to
make this system sound like a bigger system....money is not that big of
an issue...I am a composer and producer of R&B/Hip Hop, I use Logic
because I like to create in it. Would a Digi HD system sound
dramatically better? How about a Dangerous 2 bus summing system, maybe
Apogee DA16, Dangerous 2bus, Maybe an older analog console to sum...I
have heard that the digital summing is a weak link...So maybe a small
Neve, API, to sum....Ideas???? My mixes sound good, but not wide or
spacious...

I suspect you need technique rather than equipment. Don't take this
as an insult. We ALL need better technique :-)

Maybe...BUT...I have been PROFESSIONALLY in the biz for 17 years....I
have mixed on SSL's, Neve's, Ameks, Etc....I have AWARDS and PLENTY of
platinum plaques....Its just the first time I tried to do it all WITHOUT
mixing on an SSL....So I decided to ask some questions here about the
limitations of digital summing....I think my technique is probably good
enough to get me the "radio" sound of today, hell I got that sound
mixing on 2 02r's for years.....BUT again, ditched the 02R, and now I am
fully entrenched in Logic Pro, never was a huge PT fan, although I have
had had a PT system at all times...sooo I appreciate the input, but my
clients expecting mixed albums in a few weeks wont take the "I suspect I
need technique" answer.....Or, maybe I need a better mix room, or
monitoring...etc....I just want more of the SSL sound I am used to
WITHOUT mixing on a SSL4000.....Maybe its not possible, maybe what I
want is not possible from a DAW by itself. This is why the analog
summing piqued my interest. I thought, MAYBE this was the holy grail of
"THAT" sound that I was missing in my DAW mixes.....Don't take this an
an insult, my technique is fine.

JR

JR wrote:

I am using ....[long list, nothning about how it is used] ...
My mixes sound good, but not wide or spacious...

Do you record good, ie. "wide and spacious" stereo to begin with? - what
you ask for seems to be a recording and mixing property, not an
equipment related property.

Stereo is not acheived simply by panpotting multi-mono.

JR


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

In article . com,
"chris110000100101001" wrote:

My mixes sound good, but not wide or spacious...

I don't believe that throwing money at a mix is going to give you the
result that you are after.

Don't take this the wrong way but usually it is effective eq and
panning that creates mixes that are wide open.

Chris

thanks Chris...from down under are you? I just did a some new stuff for
Deni Hines down there....But yeah, its beyond that I think....Its the
subtle depth that I am not getting from the DAW and that I AM getting on
a SSL....doing the same things....the tracks themselves sound fine, its
just when I start to get to a full mix, I think I am running out of
headroom.....That kinda thing....But if I back down everything, I
effectively raise the noise floor, and reduce resolution....so external
summing allows higher resolution, while giving me even more headroom.

JR

JR wrote:

Laurence Payne lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote:

My mixes sound good, but not wide or spacious...

I suspect you need technique rather than equipment. Don't
take this as an insult. We ALL need better technique :-)

Maybe...BUT...I have been PROFESSIONALLY in the biz for 17
years....I have mixed on SSL's, Neve's, Ameks, Etc....I
have AWARDS and PLENTY of platinum plaques....

Yes, Yes, Yes, and you now encounter problems using a different tool.
"Wide and Spacious" are generally - at least by me - read as referring
to properties of real stereophonic recordings.

Its just the first time I tried to do it all WITHOUT
mixing on an SSL....

OK, fine, yes. I do not have to aim for "radio sound", whatever that my
be. Try giving my mixes on http://raw-tracks.com - PL's mixes ... a
listen, I have tried to get them wide as well as spacious. They are not
perfect, and I have been learning along the way, but what I have aimed
for is to get real stereo. And they are "daw'ed", also reasonably -
albeit not fully - documented in the comments.

"THAT" sound that I was missing in my DAW mixes.....Don't
take this an an insult, my technique is fine.

I don't think that anything hardware or software really is neutral. As
for whether your issues are about properties of protools ... ??? ... are
there differences in the recordings that may matter?

JR


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

JR wrote:
I am using a MOTU 896HD with Logic Pro 7.1....I have Tannoy Precision 8D
and System 12 monitors. Presonus C-Station....So whats the best way to
make this system sound like a bigger system....money is not that big of
an issue...I am a composer and producer of R&B/Hip Hop, I use Logic
because I like to create in it. Would a Digi HD system sound
dramatically better? How about a Dangerous 2 bus summing system, maybe
Apogee DA16, Dangerous 2bus, Maybe an older analog console to sum...I
have heard that the digital summing is a weak link...So maybe a small
Neve, API, to sum....Ideas???? My mixes sound good, but not wide or
spacious...

Digital summing can, and easily should be today, excruciatingly
accurate with no audible variability across systems. I suggest that
it is that excruciating accuracy that your ear is finding less
satisfactory. You simply prefer whatever it is that analog summing
does differently and, given the track record you relate in another
post in this thread, you ought to trust that preference.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler."

A. Einstein

I got that sound mixing on 2 02r's for years

You have better gear now than the 02R. If you can get it right with an
O2R then you can get with the MOTU.

I think I am running out of headroom.....That kinda thing....But if I back down everything, I
effectively raise the noise floor, and reduce resolution....so external
summing allows higher resolution, while giving me even more headroom.

24 bit digital has a dynamic range of more than 144dB. More headroom
than analogue.
Maybe you ARE pushing too hard. It's ok if you mix only halfway up the
meters. That noise floor is way down!

See if you can hire some coverters and summing boxes for a weekend.
Then you'll know if it's worth spending thousands on gear that may or
may not give you what you are looking for.

Regards

Chris

"JR" wrote in message
...
I am using a MOTU 896HD with Logic Pro 7.1....I have Tannoy Precision 8D
and System 12 monitors. Presonus C-Station....So whats the best way to
make this system sound like a bigger system....money is not that big of
an issue...I am a composer and producer of R&B/Hip Hop, I use Logic
because I like to create in it. Would a Digi HD system sound
dramatically better? How about a Dangerous 2 bus summing system, maybe
Apogee DA16, Dangerous 2bus, Maybe an older analog console to sum...I
have heard that the digital summing is a weak link...So maybe a small
Neve, API, to sum....Ideas???? My mixes sound good, but not wide or
spacious...

Room treatment and experience.

Peace,
Paul

JR wrote:
I am using a MOTU 896HD with Logic Pro 7.1....I have Tannoy Precision 8D
and System 12 monitors. Presonus C-Station....So whats the best way to
make this system sound like a bigger system....

Record better music. Mix it better. Do it for another 20 years.

JR wrote:

...I have been PROFESSIONALLY in the biz for 17 years....I
have mixed on SSL's, Neve's, Ameks, Etc....I have AWARDS and PLENTY of
platinum plaques....Its just the first time I tried to do it all WITHOUT
mixing on an SSL....

Try taking your Logic rig into the same room as the SSL that's won you
all the awards, hook it up to the monitor system in that room, and mix.
I'll bet that if you don't get frustrated with the lack of hands-on
controls and real outboard (or on-board as in the case of EQ and
dynamics processing), you'll do just as solid and big mix as you did on
the SSL, almost.

So I decided to ask some questions here about the
limitations of digital summing....

We make progress very fast in this business. By the time manufacturers
came out with digital summing hardware, the problem was essentially
fixed in the software, so today that technique is quite overrated, at
least when you're still below the tweak level. You'll find that a
number of the big time producers and engineers still use software for
recording, but have many channels of high grade D/A converters and mix
through an SSL or Neve (or their choice) analog console for a couple of
reasons, but the sound of the summing bus alone isn't usually primary.
It's the overall sound of the console, the convenience of hands-on
controls plus fader and mute automation (which is often quicker than
doing it with software unless you're a really experienced operator) and
the easy access to outboard equipment. Plus the fact that anyone who
can afford an SSL console and has any sense at all has a well designed
control room and excellent monitoring. What do you have in this
respect?

.....Or, maybe I need a better mix room, or
monitoring...etc....I just want more of the SSL sound I am used to
WITHOUT mixing on a SSL4000.....Maybe its not possible

I think you got that right. But it isn't only about the SSL, it's about
HAVING the SSL installed and ready to work. If the only thing you're
missing is one or two channels of SSL EQ or compressoin, you can buy
those as outboard boxes now. And there are many who believe that the
plug-ins that emulate classic processing are as good today as the
genuine hardware. But it's a whole different way of working. If you're
used to making hits in an SSL control room, you have a whole lot of
adjusting to do before you can successfully do it on your kitchen table
using Logic.

Maybe what I
want is not possible from a DAW by itself. This is why the analog
summing piqued my interest. I thought, MAYBE this was the holy grail of
"THAT" sound that I was missing in my DAW mixes.....

First off, you need something really good going into that analog
summing box. What are you using for outputs in your DAW? Puttmg a
Damgerous summing box on eight outputs of a MOTU 2408 isn't going to
get you anywhere. Putting it on eight channels of Lavry, Mytek, or
maybe top shelf Apogee converters might get you closer to where you
want to be, but that's an expensive proposition.

JR wrote:
I am using a MOTU 896HD with Logic Pro 7.1....I have Tannoy Precision 8D
and System 12 monitors. Presonus C-Station....So whats the best way to
make this system sound like a bigger system....money is not that big of
an issue...I am a composer and producer of R&B/Hip Hop, I use Logic
because I like to create in it. Would a Digi HD system sound
dramatically better? How about a Dangerous 2 bus summing system, maybe
Apogee DA16, Dangerous 2bus, Maybe an older analog console to sum...I
have heard that the digital summing is a weak link...So maybe a small
Neve, API, to sum....Ideas???? My mixes sound good, but not wide or
spacious...

Just make a lot of mixes. It will come with experience.

RS

Well, that's a large question with many variables, so I won't really
attempt to answer it other than to say that, for me, running my Pro
Tools rig into my board for mixing is my normal way of doing things.
It just sounds better to me. My board is a mid-80's Noetek Series III,
and they are what's call a "musical"-sounding board g, which usually
means the board is adding euphonic artifacts. Good-sounding
distortion. There are many boards I've messed with that I wouldn't
run through unless I really had to, because they don't sound musical
and good to me, so I guess what I'm trying to say, in a roundabout way,
is that it can sound great to run tracks and submixes out to a
good-sounding board, but just make sure you get a good-sounding board!
I think you'll find that your mixes gain a pleasing density.

-jeff