Why is it that the mixes for live bands on TV shows are so hit and
miss? Whenever I hear a band on a show like Saturday Night Live it
seems like a 50/50 chance that the sound will be either really great or
dreadfully bad. What are some of the variables here? No sound check?
Bad acoustics in a typical TV studio? The processing in the broadcast
chain? Is audio really that low of a priority on TV? All of the above?
What else?

I've wondered about this before but last night my friends, The
Bellrays, were on The Late, Late Show. The sound really wasn't bad,
just not quite what I was hoping for. I noticed a couple of things that
probably would not bother anyone else, but that's probably because I've
heard them play live a nearly a hundred times and I've also recorded
them in a studio.

BTW, the new Bellrays CD "Have a Little Faith" is officially hitting
the stores today and they're about to start a new round of touring.
I've mentioned them here on r.a.p. several times in the past because
they are such a great live band. Check the tour dates and give a listen
to their new album for free on their site: http://www.thebellrays.com/
Anyone that wants to be impressed by a live band should go to a
Bellrays show. They never fail to deliver a great set.

wrote:
Why is it that the mixes for live bands on TV shows are so hit and
miss? Whenever I hear a band on a show like Saturday Night Live it
seems like a 50/50 chance that the sound will be either really great or
dreadfully bad. What are some of the variables here? No sound check?
Bad acoustics in a typical TV studio? The processing in the broadcast
chain? Is audio really that low of a priority on TV? All of the above?
What else?

All of the above. Also there is a very limited setup time, the bands
are playing cold without any real warmup (even if they did a runthrough
the day before), and they are being mixed by the audio for video guy
who may not be intimately familiar with the way the music is supposed to
sound. It's especially hard on a show where there are a wide variety of
different acts.

Also, many of these shows have a live audience, so the guys basically have
to worry about a live stage mix, a monitor mix, and the audio for video
mix. Even with three mix operators (plus the fourth guy doing dialogue
mixing), this is a lot of stuff to do and a lot of mixes that each need
to be compromised for one another.

But that's what makes it exciting.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

You ought to try doing a live band on a local TV show. I played in
group that got a shot on a morning local TV talk show. Talk about a
cluster ****. The tech staff didn't have a clue as to what they should
be doing. We just set up our stuff and played. It sucked sound wise,
but we did get some great exposure.

DaveT

wrote:

Why is it that the mixes for live bands on TV shows are so hit and
miss? Whenever I hear a band on a show like Saturday Night Live it
seems like a 50/50 chance that the sound will be either really great or
dreadfully bad. What are some of the variables here? No sound check?

I've noticed this myself, even Sheryl Crow who normally has decent
sound was pretty bad on a recent PBS performance.

I'd expect a sound check in almost all but the most disorganized
cases.

Bad acoustics in a typical TV studio? The processing in the broadcast
chain? Is audio really that low of a priority on TV? All of the above?

Bad acoustics can be overcome to a degree with close miking,
and although the typical TV studio isn't as well damped as a
recording studio a real nightmare should be rare.

The processing chain is key here since most TV sound is set up for
voice intelligibility and loudness just like radio. Some of this can be
compensated for by a good mix. Stations/networks will vary quite
a bit from one to another, though, but a studio that regularly hosts
music acts should be able to handle the chore with reasonable
results. It's just that you don't know what additional damage will
be done downline at the affiliates.

Audio may be a priority, but music may not be. ;-[
So, of course it's a combination of factors including the ability and
interest of the mix-person.

What else?

How important is it to the label/promoter/etc that the show sound good?
I worked with an act that wanted to do a show on the Nashville cable
access channel, which has a reputation for truly horrible audio
quality.
I insisted they not do the show until we could ensure that we'd sound
better than the typical bad sounding act on the outlet. It was a lot of
work but I think we sounded better than most before or since.

I've wondered about this before but last night my friends, The
Bellrays, were on The Late, Late Show. The sound really wasn't bad,

I saw it, it wasn't that bad at all.


BTW, the new Bellrays CD "Have a Little Faith" is officially hitting
to their new album for free on their site: http://www.thebellrays.com/

I had trouble viewing the site, I suggest having a no-flash (or
whatever)
option for those of us on systems that are restricted on what downloads
and plugins are needed online.

rd

wrote:
Why is it that the mixes for live bands on TV shows are so hit and
miss? Whenever I hear a band on a show like Saturday Night Live it
seems like a 50/50 chance that the sound will be either really great or
dreadfully bad. What are some of the variables here?

Sometimes TV audio people aren't experts in music, sometimes bands
approach a TV appearance so much like they do a Live Concert they miss
the "Recording" side of the equation. The Saturday Night Live Guys
have to tell their own War stories, but they're pretty experienced.

No sound check?

My first TV mix of Belly on the old FX network show "SoundFx" they
showed up 5 minutes to air. Fotunately, I had preset each mic on their
kit based on how loud the room tone was in each mic and the Producers'
thought it sounded just like the record. So it was fine but umm - you
have to hear the record though...

Bad acoustics in a typical TV studio? The processing in the broadcast
chain? Is audio really that low of a priority on TV? All of the above?
What else?

One thing I have learned, if you don't make *your* dynamic
processing pump, all the downstream processing will squash your program
flat. Long release times will kill you, unless it's a Choir or an
Orchestra or something similar.

I've wondered about this before but last night my friends, The
Bellrays, were on The Late, Late Show. The sound really wasn't bad,
just not quite what I was hoping for. I noticed a couple of things that
probably would not bother anyone else, but that's probably because I've
heard them play live a nearly a hundred times and I've also recorded
them in a studio.

Thing is, you get paid the same whether it sounds like the record
or not... The main thing is, never blow a commercial or a sponsor's
announce. No one will notice much about your mix other than the vocals
on the band if they can hear everything, but blow a $250,000 +
commercial (so they have to do it again FREE) and you're TOAST.

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

"RD Jones" wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:

Why is it that the mixes for live bands on TV shows are so hit and
miss? Whenever I hear a band on a show like Saturday Night Live it
seems like a 50/50 chance that the sound will be either really great or
dreadfully bad. What are some of the variables here? No sound check?

I've noticed this myself, even Sheryl Crow who normally has decent
sound was pretty bad on a recent PBS performance.

Hi,

just for curiosity, what performance? Soundstage?

Scott

"RD Jones" wrote:

I've noticed this myself, even Sheryl Crow who normally has decent
sound was pretty bad on a recent PBS performance.

Scott Stern wrote:

just for curiosity, what performance? Soundstage?

It was Austin City Limits, a rerun of the 2004 festival show.
Doyle Bramhall II and Ryan Adams were guests.

The SoundStage show wasn't all that bad, IMO.

rd

In article .com,
wrote:

Why is it that the mixes for live bands on TV shows are so hit and
miss? Whenever I hear a band on a show like Saturday Night Live it
seems like a 50/50 chance that the sound will be either really great or
dreadfully bad. What are some of the variables here? No sound check?
Bad acoustics in a typical TV studio? The processing in the broadcast
chain? Is audio really that low of a priority on TV? All of the above?
What else?


A lot of it has to do with that fact that the band's normal mixers
(studio or live) can't touch the console because they're not union.

SNL has had the same live air crew from almost the beginning of the show
and they're really good if the band is, and the if the band gives them
some rehearsal time. I know they'd prefer the band do a run-thru on
Thursday before the show, then they record it and set all their levels
and automation for the run-thru on Sat afternoon. The band usually has
15-20 minutes at around 5:30, then again at dress rehearsal at 8 (The
show is done completely before it airs live at 11:30). But bands have
been known to change songs before air, or sometimes the producers ask
them to change.

You'll notice if you watch a re-run, the music audio is usually a lot
better because they've had a chance to remix or even use the take from
the dress rehearsal.

--
Bobby Owsinski
Surround Associates
http://www.surroundassociates.com

Bobby Owsinski wrote:

A lot of it has to do with that fact that the band's normal mixers
(studio or live) can't touch the console because they're not union.

I've been in situations like this where I couldn't touch anything
(on stage or at the desk) but sat in as an 'associate producer'
or consultant. It's frustrating, but part of the game.

rd

wrote:

Why is it that the mixes for live bands on TV shows are so hit and
miss? Whenever I hear a band on a show like Saturday Night Live it
seems like a 50/50 chance that the sound will be either really great or
dreadfully bad. What are some of the variables here? No sound check?
Bad acoustics in a typical TV studio? The processing in the broadcast
chain? Is audio really that low of a priority on TV? All of the above?

I was hesitent to dredge up an old thread but felt compelled
to comment that the sound mix for U2 is well above average
for a TV mix. I can actually hear the drums, the guitar/bass
balance is good, vocals are clear.

For some strange reason U2 has the whole show so back
to the program.

rd

A lot of it has to do with that fact that the band's normal mixers
(studio or live) can't touch the console because they're not union.


Sorrry I beg to differ here. I would take offence if some yahoo
who only knows the bands mix for PA for a concert was at my console. I
would love to have him over my shoulder though and often I will
request this. Nothing like a better set of ears that knows the bands
music. But does he know the console and know what the problems with
the transmission system are. I used to say for a TV Mix you have to
start out with someting supurb cuz it will end up as soft poop. If
you start with soft poop it ends up doiwn the sewer.