I'm trying to run multiple lavs in a small studio. The studio has been
made acoustically dead but I'm still getting really bad phase problems
from the host to guest mics and vise versa.

Will simply switching phase cure these problems?

Is gating each line a good idea?

Right now we are trying out various lav mics again after deadening the
acoustics. The Sony ECM-88 and the DPA 4060 are what we are looking at,
but to give them a fair go, this phase issue has to be solved when we
have multiple mics on the floor.

Any advice welcome

Thanks in Advance

nmm wrote:
I'm trying to run multiple lavs in a small studio. The studio has been
made acoustically dead but I'm still getting really bad phase problems
from the host to guest mics and vise versa.

If they are that close, skip the lav mikes and use a boom.

Will simply switching phase cure these problems?

Maybe. Your chances are fifty fifty that it will make them better or worse.
Can't hurt to press the button and see, though.

Is gating each line a good idea?

No. It drives me UP THE FREAKING WALL when I hear that going on.

Right now we are trying out various lav mics again after deadening the
acoustics. The Sony ECM-88 and the DPA 4060 are what we are looking at,
but to give them a fair go, this phase issue has to be solved when we
have multiple mics on the floor.

Better lav mike placement might help, but I think it's time for a boom.

Deadening the acoustics won't help if the leakage is direct sound rather
than reflected sound. Soloing the mikes will tell you that.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 5 Apr 2006 06:32:22 -0700, "nmm" wrote:

I'm trying to run multiple lavs in a small studio. The studio has been
made acoustically dead but I'm still getting really bad phase problems
from the host to guest mics and vise versa.

Will simply switching phase cure these problems?

Is gating each line a good idea?

Right now we are trying out various lav mics again after deadening the
acoustics. The Sony ECM-88 and the DPA 4060 are what we are looking at,
but to give them a fair go, this phase issue has to be solved when we
have multiple mics on the floor.

If multiple mics are causing a problem, can't you just point a single
mic at them? Though multiple body mics are routinely used in all
sort of situations without problem. You're not doing anything silly
like applying compression, are you?

Can you rent an auto mic mixer? Works wonders in open mic situations.


Eric

"nmm" wrote ...
I'm trying to run multiple lavs in a small studio. The
studio has been made acoustically dead but I'm still
getting really bad phase problems from the host to
guest mics and vise versa.

If your studio is "small" and "acoustically dead", why do
you need individual lavs on the participants? In similar
situations, for example, talk radio stations typcially have
cardioid mics on movable arms which are used for the
host and the guest(s).

Phase problems between the microphones indicates that
you are violating the 3:1 rule. You must keep the mics
at least 3x farther away from each other than they are from
their sound source (the host or guests' mouth).

From the limited information you have provided, lav mics
(of ANY price) seem like a bad choice for your applicaiton.

Laurence Payne wrote:
On 5 Apr 2006 06:32:22 -0700, "nmm" wrote:

I'm trying to run multiple lavs in a small studio. The studio has been
made acoustically dead but I'm still getting really bad phase problems
from the host to guest mics and vise versa.

Will simply switching phase cure these problems?

Is gating each line a good idea?

Right now we are trying out various lav mics again after deadening the
acoustics. The Sony ECM-88 and the DPA 4060 are what we are looking at,
but to give them a fair go, this phase issue has to be solved when we
have multiple mics on the floor.

If multiple mics are causing a problem, can't you just point a single
mic at them?

That's what i want to do, as Scott said "Boom" but our director says it
will interfere with the bump shots


Though multiple body mics are routinely used in all
sort of situations without problem.

It is the standard for television.


You're not doing anything silly
like applying compression, are you?

... Uh was that a really bad idea?

We just switched from using MD-421(s) that sat on the desk to the Lav
mics and now the phase problem is really obvious when multiple mics are
up. I'm pre-amping and compressing through two Drawmer 1960 ( I'm
lending them one, but want to buy a 1969 for the next two channels )
then compressing the master out of the console through a UREI 1178. So
there is quite a bit of compression on everything. I thought it would
just act as a limiter since our host's level can be all over the
place.

Will easing off on the Drawmer help out? The console is a Mackie 32-8
; it's dynamic range is poor.

Richard Crowley wrote:
"nmm" wrote ...
I'm trying to run multiple lavs in a small studio. The
studio has been made acoustically dead but I'm still
getting really bad phase problems from the host to
guest mics and vise versa.

If your studio is "small" and "acoustically dead", why do
you need individual lavs on the participants? In similar
situations, for example, talk radio stations typcially have
cardioid mics on movable arms which are used for the
host and the guest(s).


We are both TV and radio.. I think our audiance split is now 70% TV 30%
radio.

Phase problems between the microphones indicates that
you are violating the 3:1 rule. You must keep the mics
at least 3x farther away from each other than they are from
their sound source (the host or guests' mouth).

How close can one get a lav? They are Omni so there isn't a proximity
effect, but what is the standard closest place to pin one on someone?


From the limited information you have provided, lav mics
(of ANY price) seem like a bad choice for your applicaiton.


It's a TV Show, so we wanted to get the mics out of everyone's faces.
Up till the last couple of days we had a bunch of 421(s) sitting on the
table.

I would rather introduce a boom but the director says it makes his
bump shots ugly ( compared to the lighting grid, i don't think so, but
i'm sound, not aesthetics )

"nmm" wrote in message
oups.com

I'm trying to run multiple lavs in a small studio. The
studio has been made acoustically dead but I'm still
getting really bad phase problems from the host to guest
mics and vise versa.

What exactly do you mean by bad phase problems?

Will simply switching phase cure these problems?

If you're complaining about phasiness and comb filtering, then probably no.
Those problems imply multiple phase flips accross the audio band and just
switching polarity won't help much.

Is gating each line a good idea?

IME the cure may be as objectionable as the problem.

Right now we are trying out various lav mics again after
deadening the acoustics. The Sony ECM-88 and the DPA 4060
are what we are looking at, but to give them a fair go,
this phase issue has to be solved when we have multiple
mics on the floor.

Any advice welcome

Sony ECM 88 = omni
DPA 4060 = omni

My favorite lav = supercardiod Shure

nmm wrote:
Richard Crowley wrote:
"nmm" wrote ...
I'm trying to run multiple lavs in a small studio. The
studio has been made acoustically dead but I'm still
getting really bad phase problems from the host to
guest mics and vise versa.

If you are compressing each mic individually before mixing, then the
comps are trying to get the levels from each mic equal, and that is the
worst case for phasing issues.

Try mixing the mics first and then compressing the mix.

Mark

A couple of suggestions:

1) Mic placement makes a big difference. Having the lav up near the talker's
collarbone works a lot better than having it halfway down their chest. More
direct sound, less leakage. You'd be surprised how much difference a 6"
shift makes.

2) Try to keep loud talkers and soft talkers apart. When they're next to
each other, the loud one bleeds into the soft one's mic, which is turned up
because the soft one is soft. If you have four guests, put the loudest and
softest ones on the ends, with intermediate-level talkers in the middle.

If all else fails, Scott's right, it's time for a boom. Or some desk mics;
for four guests, two good hypercardioids (two guests on each mic, making
sure you observe the 3:1 rule) can do a decent job. Ditto the host.

Peace,
Paul

Peace,
Paul

"nmm" wrote ...
Laurence Payne wrote:
If multiple mics are causing a problem, can't you just point a single
mic at them?

That's what i want to do, as Scott said "Boom" but our director says it
will interfere with the bump shots

Though multiple body mics are routinely used in all
sort of situations without problem.

It is the standard for television.

You didn't mention in your original post that this was for television.

Something doesn't sound right here (no pun intended). We see
this kind of micing used on TV hundreds (thousands?) of times
every day.

How far away do you have the mics from the people's mouths?
How far are the people from each other? Do you have the mics
clipped very low on their chests? Are the people sitting unusally
close to each other? Are they whispering? Is this scripted? dramatic?
news/interview? "reality"?

Are you sure that all your lav mics and their channels are in phase?
Have you tested them? If you haven't plug them all up, gather them in
to one hand, and close all the faders. Then bring up the first one,
then the 2nd. Close the 2nd bring up the third. Work your way thru
all the combinations. If you are using lavs from different makers or
dealers you can often find that one or more is wired differently from
the rest. Once you KNOW they are all in phase then you can start to
deal w/ the proximity phase effects. This involves both placement and
gain riding. Many big-time shows that use multiple lavs use the Dugan
auto-mixers (not really "auto", but very intelligent) to "gain share"
the whole setup and keep levels under control. I don't recommend
directional lav mics for TV, they make head turns (as in a person on a
panel talking to people on either side of them) and other head and body
turn situations much more audible. They are also much more prone to
odd cavity resonances and coloration due to being mounted high (under
the chin) or hidden in clothing, if your show wants to "bury" the lavs.

Philip Perkins

nmm wrote:

I'm trying to run multiple lavs in a small studio. The studio has
been made acoustically dead but I'm still getting really bad phase
problems from the host to guest mics and vise versa.

Welcome to my world... at least you have an acoustically dead studio.
The ones I work in are all glass and tile.

Do you have an HVAC vent directly above the talent position too?



Will simply switching phase cure these problems?

If only. It just moves the comb filtering to different frequencies.
Sometimes that'll mean the comb filtering is less objectionable,
sometimes it will make it worse. It's worth finding out which setting
is less awful, but it won't remedy the problem.



Is gating each line a good idea?

No! *If* you can get it to work (and you probably won't be able to
because other voices will keep forcing the gates open) it will sound
like crap as the room tone jumps up and down.



Right now we are trying out various lav mics again after deadening
the acoustics. The Sony ECM-88 and the DPA 4060 are what we are
looking at, but to give them a fair go, this phase issue has to be
solved when we have multiple mics on the floor.

Any advice welcome

Gain riding, period.

I'm usually dripping sweat by the end of a panel discussion show. It
looks easy, but it isn't. You have to stay really sharp to anticipate
which mics to bring up and when (good luck when everyone starts talking
at once!). You don't kill the other mics while another is open, but you
do duck them, usually around 10-15dB or so, riding them in and out
gently. That way if someone pipes up you still hear their first couple
words while you bring them up and bring down something else.

Automatic mixers suck at this, because they don't know the difference
between a guest saying "Mm hmmm" or making some other innoccuous and
inconsequential sound versus actually speaking a sentence. That
requires the judgement of a real live mixhuman.

A certain amount of phasiness is unavoidable. Directional lavs won't
cure it, and they come with their own liabilities anyway. As for a boom
on the set, we both know there's a reason they don't call it
televisionandhearing -- it's all about what it looks like.

After a few shows you start to get the hang of knowing which mics to
duck and when, and, obviously more importantly, how to listen for the
cue to open another mic. To this end, you absoutely *MUST* have a
clear, unbostructed view of the people on set, or a video monitor for
each camera, or at least a locked-off wide shot showing the host and all
the guests. Anytime you have more than two people on set, you need to
be able to see who's talking.

Good luck! I'll chime in again if I think of anything I've missed.

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)

On Wed, 5 Apr 2006 09:32:22 -0400, nmm wrote
(in article .com):

I'm trying to run multiple lavs in a small studio. The studio has been
made acoustically dead but I'm still getting really bad phase problems
from the host to guest mics and vise versa.

Will simply switching phase cure these problems?

Is gating each line a good idea?

Right now we are trying out various lav mics again after deadening the
acoustics. The Sony ECM-88 and the DPA 4060 are what we are looking at,
but to give them a fair go, this phase issue has to be solved when we
have multiple mics on the floor.

Any advice welcome

Thanks in Advance


The more mics, the more phase swish. Try an automixer or fewer mics.

Ty Ford


-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

On 5 Apr 2006 08:34:56 -0700, "nmm" wrote:

You're not doing anything silly
like applying compression, are you?

.. Uh was that a really bad idea?

We just switched from using MD-421(s) that sat on the desk to the Lav
mics and now the phase problem is really obvious when multiple mics are
up. I'm pre-amping and compressing through two Drawmer 1960 ( I'm
lending them one, but want to buy a 1969 for the next two channels )
then compressing the master out of the console through a UREI 1178. So
there is quite a bit of compression on everything. I thought it would
just act as a limiter since our host's level can be all over the
place.

Will easing off on the Drawmer help out? The console is a Mackie 32-8
; it's dynamic range is poor.

If you're compressing each channel individually, the effect is to turn
up each "silent" mic. Not at all a good idea. I'm surprised the
discussion hasn't picked up on this topic.

Laurence Payne wrote:
On 5 Apr 2006 08:34:56 -0700, "nmm" wrote:

You're not doing anything silly
like applying compression, are you?

.. Uh was that a really bad idea?

We just switched from using MD-421(s) that sat on the desk to the Lav
mics and now the phase problem is really obvious when multiple mics are
up. I'm pre-amping and compressing through two Drawmer 1960 ( I'm
lending them one, but want to buy a 1969 for the next two channels )
then compressing the master out of the console through a UREI 1178. So
there is quite a bit of compression on everything. I thought it would
just act as a limiter since our host's level can be all over the
place.

Will easing off on the Drawmer help out? The console is a Mackie 32-8
; it's dynamic range is poor.

If you're compressing each channel individually, the effect is to turn
up each "silent" mic. Not at all a good idea. I'm surprised the
discussion hasn't picked up on this topic.


I've backed way off on the Mic Pre compressors since the first day that
we moved the show to Lav mics.

On today's show the host used a DPA 4071, and the guest used a Sony
ECM-88. Neither mic had a lot of input compression, but still using
the 1178 on master out.

I had no problems with the DPA, sounded great. The Sony wich we were
using when i first noticed the major comb filtering problems still had
was getting those comb filtering sounds.

Yesterday, the first day i ran the DPA, a 4060 on the host and the 4071
on the cohost ( he only shows up on Thursdays, usually) I had backed
way off on the comps, and the comb filtering had gone away, or was
reduced to acceptable levels.

But was it the Compressor or the mics? Probably a combo of both, but
that Sony ECM88, which sounds great on it's own seems to be the most
susceptible to the il effects.

We have all these mics for another weekor two to try out. I'd like to
check out the Countryman, AKG, and Sennheisers too, but there is
pressure to buy already.


Thanks for all the help.
nick

On Apr 5, 2006, nmm commented:

How close can one get a lav? They are Omni so there isn't a proximity
effect, but what is the standard closest place to pin one on someone?
------------------------------snip------------------------------

I would go as high up on the chest as possible. For example, if the men are
wearing ties, you can try to hide the mike in the knot. Otherwise, the
conventional clips can be used, clipped to the lapel, about 6" below the
chin. If they're wearing a T-shirt, clip it to their collar, but avoid
clothing rustling noises as much as you can. If I have three people in a
row, and the host is to their right, then I usually clip the mikes to their
right side, assuming they'll be turning in that direction most frequently.

You could try riding gain a bit on the lavs to minimize the phase
cancellation, assuming this isn't an interview situation where everybody is
trying to talk at once, like a political argument. I've worked on TV "round
table" situations where we had as many as 6 or 7 lavs and never ran into any
major phase issues, but nobody was closer than about 3-4 feet. If they're
sitting together on a couch, that could be a problem.

Also, as a last resort, you can try using a directional cardioid lav like the
Sony ECM-66 or the Sennheiser MKE104, but the problem with those is that
their coverage falls off drastically if the person turns their head. The
alternative might be to do what they do on some TV sports shows and have the
talent wear a headset mike, which will at least keep the lavalier only a few
inches away from their mouths.

As to mixers and preamps, I think you have to approach this from a TV point
of view rather than a recording studio. I'm not convinced that you need
compressors on each individual mike channel, assuming this is a typical
interview situation. One modest solution would be one of the Mackie Onyx
mixers, and the preamps in those aren't terrible (and are actually used on
some major TV shows). Same with the Yamaha 01X. Then use an outboard
limiter/compressor for the final mix, along with a little gain riding to
balance things out.

--MFW

Ty Ford wrote:
The more mics, the more phase swish. Try an automixer or fewer mics.

Most guys just aren't careful enough. Which is ok, if you don't
mind moving faders up and down for the whole show when people speak,
you basically keep the non-speakers 5-8 db below the person who is
speaking. But a little is a lot in this business, being careful makes
a difference.

1. The Right mic (DPA 4060 is GREAT) in the right place (meaning
generally *IN* THE CAMERA SHOT.) Tell them upfront it will sound
hollow if they insist on it being off camera.
2. Don't over EQ ( 3db cut/boost is a lot. ) That Mackie's eq is
likely gonna do more harm than good anyway.
3. Balance the mics very carefully ( Think of it as micing an
area, not individuals. 1-3 db too loud on one mic and the other person
will sound very hollow. )
4. A limiter with automakeup gain is quieter than a compressor.
Such a device boosts output gain only when it is reducing peaks, so
with a fast release time you won't be raising the noise floor when the
person isn't talking.
5. Did I mention use a fast release time? Speech is percussive,
and approaching it with a long sustain time just sucks up reverb tails.

6. When two people wearing omnis face each other directly,
that's the only time reversing the phase on one mic helps; basically
baffled omnis face to face. Anything less than 180 degrees out, 45 or
90 degrees, doesn't really help to invert polarity.

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 16:58:21 -0400, nmm wrote
(in article .com):

But was it the Compressor or the mics? Probably a combo of both, but that
Sony ECM88, which sounds great on it's own seems to be the most susceptible
to the il effects.

Grab all the lavs in your hand and turn em all up. See if there's a polarity
issue with the Sony or any of the other mics. If there is, and you have a 442
mixer, you can flip polarity on channel 2.

Ty Ford


-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

Lorin David Schultz wrote:
Gain riding, period.

I'm usually dripping sweat by the end of a panel discussion show. It
looks easy, but it isn't. You have to stay really sharp to anticipate
which mics to bring up and when (good luck when everyone starts talking
at once!). You don't kill the other mics while another is open, but you
do duck them, usually around 10-15dB or so, riding them in and out
gently. That way if someone pipes up you still hear their first couple
words while you bring them up and bring down something else.

Are you doing this for live shows or for record to air shows?

What are the consequences in your environment if you are late on a fade?

After a few shows you start to get the hang of knowing which mics to
duck and when, and, obviously more importantly, how to listen for the
cue to open another mic. To this end, you absoutely *MUST* have a
clear, unbostructed view of the people on set, or a video monitor for
each camera, or at least a locked-off wide shot showing the host and all
the guests. Anytime you have more than two people on set, you need to
be able to see who's talking.

Our church makes 5 or 6, 1/2 hour TV programs per week. These are all
record to air, chat show style programs and I've been riding the faders
to try and reduce comb filtering and the general messiness of multiple
open mics.

The show's format is one or two people acting as host, and between one
and three guests. They people sit on two sofas at 90 degrees to each
other. It can be quite a job keeping everything smooth when all 5
people are having a lively discussion!

As you said, you develop a feel for who's going to speak next. I've
learnt that you shouldn't listen to person speaking, but the people who
are not speaking. You listen (and watch) for an intake of breath, and
try and pre-empt the reply.

The problem is, if I'm late on a fade then there are justifiable
complaints from the post production dept because they have to spend
extra time tweaking the sound track.

Apart from the obvious things like "don't loose concentration" and
"don't allow people to disturb you during a shoot", what other steps can
be taken to minimize the effect of a late fade?

Also, have you had problems with laughter? We had one guest a few weeks
ago who laughed very loudly and distorted the signal from the radio
transmitter (which was set to -10dB). There was nothing I could do
about that by riding the fader.

We've tried to avoid setting the transmitters to -20dB because usually
this is too much of a drop.

Any hints/tips/advice would be greatly appreciated.

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
But the words of the wise are quiet and few.
---

Chris Whealy wrote:
Lorin David Schultz wrote:

Gain riding, period.

I'm usually dripping sweat by the end of a panel discussion show. It
looks easy, but it isn't. You have to stay really sharp to anticipate
which mics to bring up and when (good luck when everyone starts
talking at once!). You don't kill the other mics while another is
open, but you do duck them, usually around 10-15dB or so, riding them
in and out gently. That way if someone pipes up you still hear their
first couple words while you bring them up and bring down something else.


Are you doing this for live shows or for record to air shows?

What are the consequences in your environment if you are late on a fade?

After a few shows you start to get the hang of knowing which mics to
duck and when, and, obviously more importantly, how to listen for the
cue to open another mic. To this end, you absoutely *MUST* have a
clear, unbostructed view of the people on set, or a video monitor for
each camera, or at least a locked-off wide shot showing the host and
all the guests. Anytime you have more than two people on set, you
need to be able to see who's talking.


Our church makes 5 or 6, 1/2 hour TV programs per week. These are all
record to air, chat show style programs and I've been riding the faders
to try and reduce comb filtering and the general messiness of multiple
open mics.

The show's format is one or two people acting as host, and between one
and three guests. They people sit on two sofas at 90 degrees to each
other. It can be quite a job keeping everything smooth when all 5
people are having a lively discussion!

As you said, you develop a feel for who's going to speak next. I've
learnt that you shouldn't listen to person speaking, but the people who
are not speaking. You listen (and watch) for an intake of breath, and
try and pre-empt the reply.

The problem is, if I'm late on a fade then there are justifiable
complaints from the post production dept because they have to spend
extra time tweaking the sound track.

Apart from the obvious things like "don't loose concentration" and
"don't allow people to disturb you during a shoot", what other steps can
be taken to minimize the effect of a late fade?

Also, have you had problems with laughter? We had one guest a few weeks
ago who laughed very loudly and distorted the signal from the radio
transmitter (which was set to -10dB). There was nothing I could do
about that by riding the fader.

We've tried to avoid setting the transmitters to -20dB because usually
this is too much of a drop.

Any hints/tips/advice would be greatly appreciated.

Chris W

Lock a multitrack to smpte and record direct outs of the mikes
as well as the live 2 mix. Then they can go back in post and pull
off what they need audio wise.

As far as the laugh issue goes, that's a transmitter gain staging issue.
You need to gain stage the transmitter for the loudest possible sound
not to overload the transmitters microphone pre amp. Once overdriven,
there is no fixing it down stream.

Bob

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
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Bob Urz wrote:
Lock a multitrack to smpte and record direct outs of the mikes
as well as the live 2 mix. Then they can go back in post and pull
off what they need audio wise.

There is NEVER the money to do this for talk programming. Also, the look
on the producer's face when you ask to go back for a remix is priceless.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

nmm wrote:
I've backed way off on the Mic Pre compressors since the first day that
we moved the show to Lav mics.


Helps, doesn't it. I usually set the threshold of a channel or mic
group compressor so it kicks in a bit before the peak limiter I have on
the 2 buss does. This could be for example, maybe a minus 2dB setting
on the compressor (VU) and a +6 setting on the peak limiter, depending
on the gear...

On today's show the host used a DPA 4071, and the guest used a Sony
ECM-88. Neither mic had a lot of input compression, but still using
the 1178 on master out.

I had no problems with the DPA, sounded great. The Sony wich we were
using when i first noticed the major comb filtering problems still had
was getting those comb filtering sounds.

Matched mics sound better, because you deal with same kind of
off-axis sound, it's more predictable.

Yesterday, the first day i ran the DPA, a 4060 on the host and the 4071
on the cohost ( he only shows up on Thursdays, usually) I had backed
way off on the comps, and the comb filtering had gone away, or was
reduced to acceptable levels.

But was it the Compressor or the mics? Probably a combo of both, but
that Sony ECM88, which sounds great on it's own seems to be the most
susceptible to the il effects.

The ECM88 probably doesn't sound as good off axis as the DPA's
do. As I have said, having a bunch of omni's on a group of people I
think of it as micing an area, not individual people so balance is
important. And you probably were overcompressing. The peak limiter
gives you the polished sound, the compressor is just to tame the mics
first.

If it was either or I would take a peak limiter over a
compressor, but I would caution you not to excessively peak limit
either. In TV you typically buss mics to mix minuses, iso records,
prefades, and into ADAM Coms systems and all over the universe, and
that's all pre-your-2-buss limiter. You can crap those paths out way
too easy if you are squashing program 8-12dB at your board output!
Watch the levels going out your aux/direct out/prefade paths, and if
possible feed those paths post compressor (like maybe from a group aux
out that's post insert, when feasable.)

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

Bob Urz wrote:
Lock a multitrack to smpte and record direct outs of the mikes
as well as the live 2 mix. Then they can go back in post and pull
off what they need audio wise.

We've just started running the direct outs onto 24 track as a precaution
against late fades


As far as the laugh issue goes, that's a transmitter gain staging issue.
You need to gain stage the transmitter for the loudest possible sound
not to overload the transmitters microphone pre amp. Once overdriven,
there is no fixing it down stream.

Yup, tell me about it... :-O

We had assumed however, that setting the transmitter gain to -10dB would
be sufficient. Obviously not.

We're starting keep a log of "guest loudness". So if this particular
guest comes back on the show, we'll know to set the transmitter gain to
-20dB.

Live and learn...

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
But the words of the wise are quiet and few.
---

Chris Whealy wrote:

Are you doing this for live shows or for record to air shows?

Both, but we go live to tape. There is no post, so it's the same either
way.



What are the consequences in your environment if you are late on a
fade?

Life goes on. Whaddaya gonna do? If it happens often enough, you get
fired. That's life in the big leagues. It's gonna happen to everyone
ocassionally though.



The problem is, if I'm late on a fade then there are justifiable
complaints from the post production dept because they have to spend
extra time tweaking the sound track.

Boo-****in'-hoo. Tell 'em if they want every mic open in advance
they're gonna have to supply the crystal ball.

You can also point out that they don't have to fix every single late
fade. It doesn't have to be *perfect*. As long as you can hear what's
being said you're fine. That assumes you're not ducking unused mics so
far that you can't make out the first few words.

This also assumes it's not happening so often that the posties have a
valid complaint. If so, suck it up and focus harder.



Apart from the obvious things like "don't loose concentration" and
"don't allow people to disturb you during a shoot", what other
steps can be taken to minimize the effect of a late fade?

Duck just enough to minimize comb filtering. I gave up on trying to
completely "cure" it years ago. I live with some, because a little comb
filtering is less annoying than missing the first couple words of every
new comment.



Also, have you had problems with laughter? We had one guest a few
weeks ago who laughed very loudly and distorted the signal from the
radio transmitter (which was set to -10dB). There was nothing I
could do about that by riding the fader.

Better wireless with higher headroom. We use Lectro 200 series.

Are you sure it's even the transmitter that's clipping though? We
sometimes get noises from capsules crapping out on the odd transient.
Not much you can do about that.

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)

Lorin David Schultz wrote:
Life goes on. Whaddaya gonna do? If it happens often enough, you get
fired. That's life in the big leagues. It's gonna happen to everyone
ocassionally though.

Well, I wouldn't describe our production environment as big league

Boo-****in'-hoo. Tell 'em if they want every mic open in advance
they're gonna have to supply the crystal ball.

LOL!

You can also point out that they don't have to fix every single late
fade. It doesn't have to be *perfect*. As long as you can hear what's
being said you're fine. That assumes you're not ducking unused mics so
far that you can't make out the first few words.

Hmmm, maybe we've sets standards for ourselves that could be relaxed a
little. Having said that, we want the production standards to be as
high as possible. This is especially important when presenting our
material to new networks.

This also assumes it's not happening so often that the posties have a
valid complaint. If so, suck it up and focus harder.

There have been some notable goofs, but on the whole, as long as
concentration is maintained, we don't miss very much.

Duck just enough to minimize comb filtering. I gave up on trying to
completely "cure" it years ago. I live with some, because a little comb
filtering is less annoying than missing the first couple words of every
new comment.

True

Better wireless with higher headroom. We use Lectro 200 series.

Are you sure it's even the transmitter that's clipping though? We
sometimes get noises from capsules crapping out on the odd transient.
Not much you can do about that.

Definitely, because I pulled the fader down by at least 15dB and it was
still crunching away...

Thanks for your comments

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
But the words of the wise are quiet and few.
---

Chris Whealy wrote:
Lorin David Schultz wrote:
Are you sure it's even the transmitter that's clipping though? We
sometimes get noises from capsules crapping out on the odd transient.
Not much you can do about that.

Definitely, because I pulled the fader down by at least 15dB and it was
still crunching away...

I dunno, I have had talent that actually sounds distorted at
their voicebox, and hairspray in the mic capsules and anchors banging
them on the desk can make a mic capsule distort even when the level is
properly matched... g And your micpre is prefader, no?

And really, not all mic capsules are well matched for the
transmitter packs, some of them require pads. DPA's are hot for
example and can easily crap out the older model Sony Transmitters,
unless you use the adapters with built in pads. With the newer
Lectrosonics transmitters the adapters with pads will make you wonder
why the very hot DPA mics are now coming in 10 or 20 low all the time;
the adapters without pads look exactly the same.

It's nice that your Productions have a Post Production budget,
Oprah and the now discontinued Al Franken Show also iso record/ed lav
mics to a Multitrack, but that's prerecorded stuff. Live TV is a
different beast.

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

WillStG wrote:
I dunno, I have had talent that actually sounds distorted at
their voicebox, and hairspray in the mic capsules and anchors banging
them on the desk can make a mic capsule distort even when the level is
properly matched... g

OK.

Note to self, check capsules for gunge/slobber/foreign bodies...

And your micpre is prefader, no?

Yup

And really, not all mic capsules are well matched for the
transmitter packs, some of them require pads. DPA's are hot for
example and can easily crap out the older model Sony Transmitters,
unless you use the adapters with built in pads. With the newer
Lectrosonics transmitters the adapters with pads will make you wonder
why the very hot DPA mics are now coming in 10 or 20 low all the time;
the adapters without pads look exactly the same.

We're operating in "make-the-best-job-with-what-we've-got" mode. So it
is possible that a mismatch could have occurred between a mic capsule
and a transmitter pack.

I'll look into it...

It's nice that your Productions have a Post Production budget,
Oprah and the now discontinued Al Franken Show also iso record/ed lav
mics to a Multitrack, but that's prerecorded stuff.

Its not so much that we have the budget, rather that post production is
a requirement of our show's format. Its basically a chat show with a
generally scripted format with ad hoc roll-ins of pre-recorded or
external material. Then it's top and tailed with title sequences, plus
bottom of screen information.

Live TV is a different beast.

I know, and I have no desire to go there (at the moment)

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
But the words of the wise are quiet and few.
---