I'm just curious. I just did a search of r.a.o. going back at least
eight years. Thousands and thousands of 'objectivist' posts by Mr.
Krueger, nob, and others.

Have these thousands of posts, representing hundreds and thousands of
man hours, been to any effect?

Has anyone ever actually changed their mind on how they think about
audio based on what they've read here?

Just curious...

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! wrote:
I'm just curious. I just did a search of r.a.o. going back at least
eight years. Thousands and thousands of 'objectivist' posts by Mr.
Krueger, nob, and others.

Have these thousands of posts, representing hundreds and thousands of
man hours, been to any effect?

Has anyone ever actually changed their mind on how they think about
audio based on what they've read here?

Just curious...

Impossible to calculate due to the unknown amount of lurkers.

It's not likely that many of the regulars here have changed their minds
as they were already made up when they started, but Idue recall from
time to time here and on other boards seeing people comment favorably
on the usefulness of Arny's posts and his website

Unlike other non-usenet boards there is no way to know how many people
are online and how many people have looked at any given post.

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm just curious. I just did a search of r.a.o. going back at least
eight years. Thousands and thousands of 'objectivist' posts by Mr.
Krueger, nob, and others.

Have these thousands of posts, representing hundreds and thousands of
man hours, been to any effect?

Has anyone ever actually changed their mind on how they think about
audio based on what they've read here?

Sometimes Arny would step into it with guys like JJ and Zelniker
and there would be some things to learn about audio bantered
back and forth.
Some of those discussions were highly technical and
difficult to always follow... but it was interesting and
sometimes revealing.

Those days are long gone.

ScottW

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm just curious. I just did a search of r.a.o. going back at least
eight years. Thousands and thousands of 'objectivist' posts by Mr.
Krueger, nob, and others.

Have these thousands of posts, representing hundreds and thousands of
man hours, been to any effect?

Has anyone ever actually changed their mind on how they think about
audio based on what they've read here?

Just curious...

I don't think so.
I like to think I did my part in discrediting Arny in his bid to be the
top-dog r.a.o. authority.
I agree with others, however, that he possesses and offers much useful info.
It's unfortunate that it is combined with so many personal negatives.

"ScottW" wrote in message
news:dg2Rf.136372$0G.31877@dukeread10
"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
wrote in message
oups.com...

I'm just curious. I just did a search of r.a.o. going
back at least eight years. Thousands and thousands of
'objectivist' posts by Mr. Krueger, nob, and others.

How does one search for "objectivist" posts?

Have these thousands of posts, representing hundreds and
thousands of man hours, been to any effect?

The strongest effects of of my posts have been on me. I've had to put
together quite a bit of knowlege about audio, in order for me to make many
of those posts. In some cases these posts were made up of bits of audio that
I knew, but had not put together in a more logical way. In other cases, I
made posts by finding new bits of information, primarily by searching
google, and putting them together with what I already knew.

Has anyone ever actually changed their mind on how they
think about audio based on what they've read here?

I've certainly changed my thinking about audio based on what I've posted
here.

Sometimes Arny would step into it with guys like JJ and Zelniker and
there would be some things to learn about audio bantered back and forth.

Actually Zelniker never really posted here very much, and most of those few
posts were highly uniformative. I just did a quick search with google and
came up with under 200 hits for RAO posts by Zelnicker. In contrast a simple
search for RAO posts by "jj" came up with almost 9,000 posts.

Some of those discussions were highly technical and
difficult to always follow... but it was interesting and
sometimes revealing.

Yup those were the days that there were actually posts about audio that had
relevant technical content. In contrast to those almost 9,000 posts by jj,
there are over 5,000 posts that mention "krooborg" and almost 9,000 posts
that mention "borg".

IOW RAO has been overrun with childish name-calling by the Middius and his
crowd.

Those days are long gone.

ScottW

I would say Krueger has on the whole made me more rather than less
subjectivist. He has to a good extent disproved his own case when his
statements are tested by listening.

Good example-hook any big solid state PA amp to an efficient speaker
in a quiet room and listen carefully. In a lot of cases, if you build
out an L-pad with series and parallel noininductive power resistors,
the sound improves! Two things happen when you do that, the damping
factor is less (it in fact goes to hell pretty quick) and moreover the
amplifier is working a lot harder as the energy goes into the
resistors. What I'm more-than-guessing is happening is the amp is being
forced into a much more linear region where it works fine. In pro
applications no one really gives a good goddamn what a 1000 watt amp
sounds like at 10 mW. Then people start talking about how bad these
products are, when they are good products, misapplied.

On the other hand the triode ****s and other coprophages are worse
than Arny. And their systems sound worse than his does, most probably.

IMO Arny needs to find another hobby where in his own estimation he
can do some good. Maybe he can build a better Segway or a better fuel
injection system for retrofit to old cars.

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm just curious. I just did a search of r.a.o. going back at least
eight years. Thousands and thousands of 'objectivist' posts by Mr.
Krueger, nob, and others.

Have these thousands of posts, representing hundreds and thousands of
man hours, been to any effect?

Has anyone ever actually changed their mind on how they think about
audio based on what they've read here?

Just curious...

I visited AK a few years ago. I did his double-blind test and picked
everything out with 100% accuracy. I have a good ear, but the point is that
he has a good point about subjectivism vs. objectivism.

I was surprised at my aural acuity. However it stands to reason. Not that I
don't think that proper cabling and amplification would sound different, the
point of the exercise was to see if the difference in encoding schemes was
apparent, and it was, to the aforementioned 100% degree.

The question of the increasing importance of the smaller difference can only
be answered by experienced and moneyed listeners, which I am not, on both
counts. They have the years of listening and the wherewithal to audition
top-flight equipment, and I for one have not the time or money to be able to
listen to the best stuff. So it stands to reason that the people who do
reviews for a living would at least be taken seriously.

Now about comparisons: The scientific method is more about proving an
hypothesis wrong than anything else. If a person thinks a thing should sound
a certain way, it is their job to try and find out why it should *not* sound
that way. If the hypothesis can not be disproved, it becomes more robust.
After repeated testing and experimentation, the hypothesis can become more
robust, even to the point of being accepted as a law, even if it is not
necessarily a law, in strict terms.

Listen for yourself. That is the ultimate arbiter. I have found that the
clean, analog path is the path to audio nirvana (not perfection, which I
think is theoretically unattainable). If you hear more stuff you need to
hear with a certain setup, that is your peak performing system. What people
on the outside don't realize is that there is more at play in the audio
chain than simple cabinet equations and crossovers. Tone controls? Use them
sparingly. I sound like an Apple guy here, but I do think that there is a
place for tone controls for a distributed audience. Not for me, though, I
like flatness.

Everyone has different aural acuity, we all have different aural frequency
responses. This is a physical thing, not a mental one. Eardrums are pretty
resilient, but the inner ear system is somewhat fragile. So I would say the
tendency for manufacturers to tilt the treble up is understandable, because
lots of the target audience has diminished hearing in the 12k and up range.

So what is the point here....it is that you have to find what sounds good to
you, and you better be ready to spend some few hundred bucks at least to get
it- this is not some kid-friendly game here, this is about real, good, hi-fi
sound, most bang for your buck. Otherwise you can build your own system from
readily-available parts. Know how to solder? Great, discover Google. Get
into power supplies and transformers, get into all the minutia of Litz wire
and the physics that make it so good. Go nuts with routing and capacitive
coupling, go crazy with the very real effects of variable magnetic fields.

These are all concerns. Don't get me started on water cable.

From: Arny Krueger
Date: Sun, Mar 12 2006 6:21 pm
Email: "Arny Krueger"

How does one search for "objectivist" posts?

One doesn't. I didn't say that I had. What I said was I looked at posts
going back over eight years and saw hundreds and thousands of posts
from you, nob, and others. The ones that I looked from you and nob at
were just like the ones I see today, Mr. Krueger: generally angry, all
promoting the 'objectivist' viewpoint, and many that seemed to bash
preference.

I had no idea that you and nob have had a history of over eight years
here, so I became curious about the effect reached.

Yup those were the days that there were actually posts about audio that had
relevant technical content. In contrast to those almost 9,000 posts by jj,
there are over 5,000 posts that mention "krooborg" and almost 9,000 posts
that mention "borg".

IOW RAO has been overrun with childish name-calling by the Middius and his
crowd.

Just now I ran three searches. One with 'Arny Krueger' one with 'Arnold
Krueger' and another with just 'Arny' as authors on r.a.o only. The
former came up with 44,300 posts; the latter 74,100. Under the 'Arnold
Krueger' search, another 500+ posts show up. You may have used other
variations or nicknames that I did not run. From what I could see, you
did make a high percentage of the posts posts under each of those
names.

There were some posts that appeared to be forgeries though. So I would
estimate that on the very low side you have made at least 45,000 posts
to r.a.o. I think probably it's more likely to be 60,000 or more.

I also looked up 'George Middius' as the author on r.a.o. That search
showed 52,600 posts. I could see no other variations that looked like
the posts were his.

Even assuming that you've made only 45,000 posts to r.a.o., the
difference in volume between you and Mr. Middius is hardly
'overrunning' rec.audio.opinion, especially in relationship to your
posting quantity. I'd guess you and he were running probably closer to
1-1, or even more likely that you post more than he does.

Just comnparing with both of your posts, it would be equally truthful
to say that you've overrun r.a.o. It would probably be more truthful to
say that neither of you has.

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! wrote:

I'm just curious. I just did a search of r.a.o. going back at least
eight years. Thousands and thousands of 'objectivist' posts by Mr.
Krueger, nob, and others.

Have these thousands of posts, representing hundreds and thousands of
man hours, been to any effect?

Has anyone ever actually changed their mind on how they think about
audio based on what they've read here?

Just curious...

I did. I used to read Arny back way back in the day, when I was just a
wee little lurker. I was a hard-boiled extremist objectivist. Even more
than Arny is. ABX was my religion, and I practiced it every day. You
couldn't convince me that ANYTHING sounded ANY different from ANYTHING
else in audio. Even loudspeakers all sounded the same, where I was
concerned. But after taking in a gutfull of Arny Krueger, he sickened
me so much, that I renounced the religion of objectivism, and smashed
my ABX comparator box with a mallet.

I even tore down my picture of sexy Dave Carlstrom, and today, as most
people know me, I'm an alternative audio guru. I always maintain an
even number of cd's in my collection, I cross out the bar codes in my
cd cases with a "specially treated" $150 red marker, and I park my car
in the same place and the same direction every day. All to ensure good
sound from my home audio. And I'm happy to report, the sound I'm
getting off my hifi kit has NEVER been better in all my days. So thank
you, Arny Krueger!

wrote in message
ups.com...

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! wrote:

I'm just curious. I just did a search of r.a.o. going back at least
eight years. Thousands and thousands of 'objectivist' posts by Mr.
Krueger, nob, and others.

Have these thousands of posts, representing hundreds and thousands of
man hours, been to any effect?

Has anyone ever actually changed their mind on how they think about
audio based on what they've read here?

Just curious...

I did. I used to read Arny back way back in the day, when I was just a
wee little lurker. I was a hard-boiled extremist objectivist. Even more
than Arny is.

Mr. Richard Graham, you have been discredited in this forum. You are a liar.

"Bret Ludwig" wrote in message
oups.com...


IMO Arny needs to find another hobby where in his own estimation he
can do some good. Maybe he can build a better Segway or a better fuel
injection system for retrofit to old cars.


ASHTRAYS! He always has ashtrays.



--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access

Signal wrote:
" emitted :

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! wrote:
I'm just curious. I just did a search of r.a.o. going back at least
eight years. Thousands and thousands of 'objectivist' posts by Mr.
Krueger, nob, and others.

Have these thousands of posts, representing hundreds and thousands of
man hours, been to any effect?

Has anyone ever actually changed their mind on how they think about
audio based on what they've read here?

Just curious...

Impossible to calculate due to the unknown amount of lurkers.

ABX converts are conspicuous by their absolute silence. When it comes
to verbose proselytes, Belt's minions have redefined the benchimark.



Given the abuse the ones who admit to endorsing it take, why would
anyone want to come out from lurking to abused by the likes of RAO's
usual suspects?

From:
Date: Mon, Mar 13 2006 12:24 am
Email: "

Given the abuse the ones who admit to endorsing it take, why would
anyone want to come out from lurking to abused by the likes of RAO's
usual suspects?

Convenient excuse. If it was me, I want to shove it to those rabid
subjectivists and say, 'Here I am, assholes!'

Do you actually think that most people would be afraid of being called
'Krooborg' or 'nob' on a discussion group? People like that should not
be on the Usenet. Their delicate sensibilities might get upset. You act
like there's physical violence here. LOL!

They can post one message that just says, "I've been converted by posts
here from enter name to a different view" (if any people like that
actually exist) and then go back to lurking.

You'd think that after eight plus years and tens of thousands of posts
there'd be some people coming forward. I am beginning to suspect that
Signal is correct: lots of loud insistent demands, lots of preference
bashing, no real effect.

wrote:
Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! wrote:


I'm just curious. I just did a search of r.a.o. going back at least
eight years. Thousands and thousands of 'objectivist' posts by Mr.
Krueger, nob, and others.

Have these thousands of posts, representing hundreds and thousands of
man hours, been to any effect?

Has anyone ever actually changed their mind on how they think about
audio based on what they've read here?

Just curious...


I did. I used to read Arny back way back in the day, when I was just a
wee little lurker. I was a hard-boiled extremist objectivist. Even more
than Arny is. ABX was my religion, and I practiced it every day. You
couldn't convince me that ANYTHING sounded ANY different from ANYTHING
else in audio. Even loudspeakers all sounded the same, where I was
concerned. But after taking in a gutfull of Arny Krueger, he sickened
me so much, that I renounced the religion of objectivism, and smashed
my ABX comparator box with a mallet.

I even tore down my picture of sexy Dave Carlstrom, and today, as most
people know me, I'm an alternative audio guru. I always maintain an
even number of cd's in my collection, I cross out the bar codes in my
cd cases with a "specially treated" $150 red marker, and I park my car
in the same place and the same direction every day. All to ensure good
sound from my home audio. And I'm happy to report, the sound I'm
getting off my hifi kit has NEVER been better in all my days. So thank
you, Arny Krueger!


Troll BE GONE!

This post is almost proof that this is some borg posing as an extreme
audio subjectivist crackpot. The message to be derived from the text
above: If you abandon the objectivist abxism religion you become a
pitiful silly subjectivist crackpot troll with a $200 green marker stuck
up your butt.

"Signal" wrote in message

" emitted :

Given the abuse the ones who admit to endorsing it take,
why would anyone want to come out from lurking to abused
by the likes of RAO's usual suspects?

Why do ABX endorsees lack the courage of their
convictions, Mick?

Mike has it right Paul - expressing *any* rational opinon with respect to
audio on the currently highly-degraded form of radical subjectivst-dominated
RAO is an open invitation for extreme personal abuse by the usual list of
suspects, yourself included. There are virtually no benefits to doing so -
all of the benefits accrue offline.

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
wrote in message
ups.com

From: Arny Krueger
Date: Sun, Mar 12 2006 6:21 pm
Email: "Arny Krueger"

How does one search for "objectivist" posts?

One doesn't. I didn't say that I had.

You implied that some kind of impartial study had taken place.

What I said was I
looked at posts going back over eight years and saw
hundreds and thousands of posts from you, nob, and
others.

False claim - google's highest estimate of how many posts I've made on RAO
is under 100,000.

The ones that I looked from you and nob at were
just like the ones I see today, Mr. Krueger: generally
angry, all promoting the 'objectivist' viewpoint, and
many that seemed to bash preference.

Inability to tell the difference between being angry and trying to hold a
bunch of abusers accountable for thieir childish behavior noted.

I had no idea that you and nob have had a history of over
eight years here, so I became curious about the effect
reached.

All things considered, the most logical thing for a person who can see past
the tremendous volume so-called subjectivist lies and false claims on RAO is
to go someplace else to express one's opinions. Given that there are any
number of audio forums where the rampant subjectivist misbehavior common on
RAO is disallowed, people seem to have gravitated to those places.

Yup those were the days that there were actually posts
about audio that had relevant technical content. In
contrast to those almost 9,000 posts by jj, there are
over 5,000 posts that mention "krooborg" and almost
9,000 posts that mention "borg".

IOW RAO has been overrun with childish name-calling by
the Middius and his crowd.

Just now I ran three searches. One with 'Arny Krueger'
one with 'Arnold Krueger' and another with just 'Arny' as
authors on r.a.o only. The former came up with 44,300
posts; the latter 74,100.

IOW, far less than the 100,000's you claimed above. Thanks for contradicting
yourself, again.

Under the 'Arnold Krueger'
search, another 500+ posts show up. You may have used
other variations or nicknames that I did not run. From
what I could see, you did make a high percentage of the
posts posts under each of those names.

There were some posts that appeared to be forgeries
though. So I would estimate that on the very low side you
have made at least 45,000 posts to r.a.o. I think
probably it's more likely to be 60,000 or more.

I also looked up 'George Middius' as the author on r.a.o.
That search showed 52,600 posts. I could see no other
variations that looked like the posts were his.

George used other nicknames including "Glanbrok". I can't remember them all
but in the early days they changed pretty frequently.

Even assuming that you've made only 45,000 posts to
r.a.o., the difference in volume between you and Mr.
Middius is hardly 'overrunning' rec.audio.opinion,
especially in relationship to your posting quantity. I'd
guess you and he were running probably closer to 1-1, or
even more likely that you post more than he does.

Let's put it this way - even his defenders can only remember a handful of
posts on RAO by Middius that could be called audio-related. Those 45,000 or
more posts by Middius were virtually all personal attacks. The vast
majority of those posts attacked me.

OTOH, my posts are predomiantely audio-related.

Just comnparing with both of your posts, it would be
equally truthful to say that you've overrun r.a.o. It
would probably be more truthful to say that neither of
you has.

It's true that I've overrun RAO with audio-related posts, which were
objectively true and based on orthodox audio technology. It's equally true
that Middius has overrun RAO with personal attacks.

"George M. Middius" cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net wrote
in message ...


Shhhh! said:

I'm just curious. I just did a search of r.a.o. going back at least
eight years. Thousands and thousands of 'objectivist' posts by Mr.
Krueger, nob, and others.

Have these thousands of posts, representing hundreds and thousands of
man hours, been to any effect?

Has anyone ever actually changed their mind on how they think about
audio based on what they've read here?

Just curious...

No effect in terms of assimilations. Krooger did succeed in spreading the
news of his mental infirmities throughout the civilized world.





More accurately, you have tried to spread that lie, but then, that's what
you do, being the swine that you are.

TWEEDLE DUM


wrote in message
ups.com...

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! wrote:

I'm just curious. I just did a search of r.a.o. going back at least
eight years. Thousands and thousands of 'objectivist' posts by Mr.
Krueger, nob, and others.

Have these thousands of posts, representing hundreds and thousands of
man hours, been to any effect?

Has anyone ever actually changed their mind on how they think about
audio based on what they've read here?

Just curious...

I did. I used to read Arny back way back in the day, when I was just a
wee little lurker. I was a hard-boiled extremist objectivist. Even more
than Arny is. ABX was my religion, and I practiced it every day. You
couldn't convince me that ANYTHING sounded ANY different from ANYTHING
else in audio. Even loudspeakers all sounded the same, where I was
concerned. But after taking in a gutfull of Arny Krueger, he sickened
me so much, that I renounced the religion of objectivism, and smashed
my ABX comparator box with a mallet.

I even tore down my picture of sexy Dave Carlstrom, and today, as most
people know me, I'm an alternative audio guru. I always maintain an
even number of cd's in my collection, I cross out the bar codes in my
cd cases with a "specially treated" $150 red marker, and I park my car
in the same place and the same direction every day. All to ensure good
sound from my home audio. And I'm happy to report, the sound I'm
getting off my hifi kit has NEVER been better in all my days. So thank
you, Arny Krueger!

TWEDDLE DUMMER


"Fella" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! wrote:


I'm just curious. I just did a search of r.a.o. going back at least
eight years. Thousands and thousands of 'objectivist' posts by Mr.
Krueger, nob, and others.

Have these thousands of posts, representing hundreds and thousands of
man hours, been to any effect?

Has anyone ever actually changed their mind on how they think about
audio based on what they've read here?

Just curious...


I did. I used to read Arny back way back in the day, when I was just a
wee little lurker. I was a hard-boiled extremist objectivist. Even more
than Arny is. ABX was my religion, and I practiced it every day. You
couldn't convince me that ANYTHING sounded ANY different from ANYTHING
else in audio. Even loudspeakers all sounded the same, where I was
concerned. But after taking in a gutfull of Arny Krueger, he sickened
me so much, that I renounced the religion of objectivism, and smashed
my ABX comparator box with a mallet.

I even tore down my picture of sexy Dave Carlstrom, and today, as most
people know me, I'm an alternative audio guru. I always maintain an
even number of cd's in my collection, I cross out the bar codes in my
cd cases with a "specially treated" $150 red marker, and I park my car
in the same place and the same direction every day. All to ensure good
sound from my home audio. And I'm happy to report, the sound I'm
getting off my hifi kit has NEVER been better in all my days. So thank
you, Arny Krueger!


Troll BE GONE!

This post is almost proof that this is some borg posing as an extreme
audio subjectivist crackpot. The message to be derived from the text
above: If you abandon the objectivist abxism religion you become a pitiful
silly subjectivist crackpot troll with a $200 green marker stuck up your
butt.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message

wrote in message
ups.com...

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! wrote:

I'm just curious. I just did a search of r.a.o. going
back at least eight years. Thousands and thousands of
'objectivist' posts by Mr. Krueger, nob, and others.

Have these thousands of posts, representing hundreds
and thousands of man hours, been to any effect?

Has anyone ever actually changed their mind on how they
think about audio based on what they've read here?

Just curious...

I did. I used to read Arny back way back in the day,
when I was just a wee little lurker. I was a hard-boiled
extremist objectivist. Even more than Arny is.

Mr. Richard Graham, you have been discredited in this
forum. You are a liar.

I've reconsidered. I think that "liar" might be a little harsh. Let's go
with "fictionalist". ;-)

From: Arny Krueger
Date: Mon, Mar 13 2006 6:29 am
Email: "Arny Krueger"

What I said was I
looked at posts going back over eight years and saw
hundreds and thousands of posts from you, nob, and
others.

False claim - google's highest estimate of how many posts I've made on RAO
is under 100,000.

Please note the difference between 'hundreds and thousands' and
'hundreds of thousands.' They do not mean the same thing. It may help
you to see that I have made no 'false claim.'

The ones that I looked from you and nob at were
just like the ones I see today, Mr. Krueger: generally
angry, all promoting the 'objectivist' viewpoint, and
many that seemed to bash preference.

Inability to tell the difference between being angry and trying to hold a
bunch of abusers accountable for thieir childish behavior noted.

IMO, there's a definite 'tone' to the majority of 'objectivist' posts
here. While yours may not be as angry as nob's, they have a distinct
edge, especially if someone disagrees with you.

I didn't notice in the FAQ that there was anyone officially responsible
here for 'holding' people 'accountable.'

Just now I ran three searches. One with 'Arny Krueger'
one with 'Arnold Krueger' and another with just 'Arny' as
authors on r.a.o only. The former came up with 44,300
posts; the latter 74,100.

IOW, far less than the 100,000's you claimed above. Thanks for contradicting
yourself, again.

No, 44,300 is indeed 'hundreds and thousands' of posts. Inability to
understand plain English noted.

I also looked up 'George Middius' as the author on r.a.o.
That search showed 52,600 posts. I could see no other
variations that looked like the posts were his.

George used other nicknames including "Glanbrok". I can't remember them all
but in the early days they changed pretty frequently.

I'd have no way of knowing that. From what I see today, I'd put you and
nob among the highest-volume posters here.

Even assuming that you've made only 45,000 posts to
r.a.o., the difference in volume between you and Mr.
Middius is hardly 'overrunning' rec.audio.opinion,
especially in relationship to your posting quantity. I'd
guess you and he were running probably closer to 1-1, or
even more likely that you post more than he does.

Let's put it this way - even his defenders can only remember a handful of
posts on RAO by Middius that could be called audio-related. Those 45,000 or
more posts by Middius were virtually all personal attacks. The vast
majority of those posts attacked me.

OTOH, my posts are predomiantely audio-related.

I don't doubt that. My question was not meant as a qualitative study on
posting content. My only question was if the massive volume of
audio-related posts from you, nob, and the other 'usual suspects' had
changed anyone's mind.

Just comnparing with both of your posts, it would be
equally truthful to say that you've overrun r.a.o. It
would probably be more truthful to say that neither of
you has.

It's true that I've overrun RAO with audio-related posts, which were
objectively true and based on orthodox audio technology. It's equally true
that Middius has overrun RAO with personal attacks.

Have either of you changed anybody's mind?

Just curious.

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" wrote in message
ups.com...
From: Arny Krueger
Date: Sun, Mar 12 2006 6:21 pm
Email: "Arny Krueger"

How does one search for "objectivist" posts?

One doesn't. I didn't say that I had. What I said was I looked at posts
going back over eight years and saw hundreds and thousands of posts
from you, nob, and others. The ones that I looked from you and nob at
were just like the ones I see today, Mr. Krueger: generally angry, all
promoting the 'objectivist' viewpoint, and many that seemed to bash
preference.

I had no idea that you and nob have had a history of over eight years
here, so I became curious about the effect reached.

Yup those were the days that there were actually posts about audio that
had
relevant technical content. In contrast to those almost 9,000 posts by
jj,
there are over 5,000 posts that mention "krooborg" and almost 9,000 posts
that mention "borg".

IOW RAO has been overrun with childish name-calling by the Middius and his
crowd.

Just now I ran three searches. One with 'Arny Krueger' one with 'Arnold
Krueger' and another with just 'Arny' as authors on r.a.o only. The
former came up with 44,300 posts; the latter 74,100. Under the 'Arnold
Krueger' search, another 500+ posts show up. You may have used other
variations or nicknames that I did not run. From what I could see, you
did make a high percentage of the posts posts under each of those
names.

There were some posts that appeared to be forgeries though. So I would
estimate that on the very low side you have made at least 45,000 posts
to r.a.o. I think probably it's more likely to be 60,000 or more.

I also looked up 'George Middius' as the author on r.a.o. That search
showed 52,600 posts. I could see no other variations that looked like
the posts were his.

But George has haunted other newsgroups as well and spread his swinish
behavior to them as well.
Any non-moderated audio group that Arny particpates in, will generally have
George's idiot contributions as well. These are newsgroups that are far
over George's head, and his main purpose for posting is to harrass Arny, or
anyone who agrees with him on anything.

Shhhh! said to ImmoralityBorg:

Have either of you changed anybody's mind?

I never intended to change anybody's mind. I just make fun of the
self-appointed "scientists" who have no real knowledge of DBTs but are
blessed with a surfeit of class envy.

duh-Mikey shows why he's known far and wide as the stupidest Kroopologist in
the history of Usenet.

his main purpose for posting is to harrass Arny, or
anyone who agrees with him on anything.

Mickey, it's a proven fact that all of your ridiculous hangups about
"existence" and "reality" are complete nonsense. However, Krooger is much
more noxious than you are because he has a smattering of knowledge that
allows him to pollute many more threads than you do. If I had to choose just
one of you to drop dead tomorrow, it would be Arnii Kroofeces.

BTW, for about the millionth time, why is it none of you phoney Usenet
"scientists" has any first-hand knowledge of your beloved DBT rituals? We've
had some Real Audio Guys on RAO from time to time who do have genuine,
hands-on knowledge and experience with them. Two of them are Glenn Zelniker
and John Atkinson. Others may be Paul Bamborough and Paul Frindle, although
I can't remember with certainty. We Normals have great respect for all of
those guys, but you and the Krooborg hate and fear them. Just something for
you to think about, Mr. "scientist".

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
wrote in message
ups.com
From: Arny Krueger
Date: Mon, Mar 13 2006 6:29 am
Email: "Arny Krueger"

What I said was I
looked at posts going back over eight years and saw
hundreds and thousands of posts from you, nob, and
others.

False claim - google's highest estimate of how many
posts I've made on RAO is under 100,000.

Please note the difference between 'hundreds and
thousands' and 'hundreds of thousands.' They do not mean
the same thing. It may help you to see that I have made
no 'false claim.'

Agreed - my error.

The ones that I looked from you and nob at were
just like the ones I see today, Mr. Krueger: generally
angry, all promoting the 'objectivist' viewpoint, and
many that seemed to bash preference.

The so-called preference card is mostly just a part of an old sucker's game
played with decks that have a few cards missing and a lot of jokers.

Inability to tell the difference between being angry and
trying to hold a bunch of abusers accountable for thieir
childish behavior noted.

IMO, there's a definite 'tone' to the majority of
'objectivist' posts here. While yours may not be as angry
as nob's, they have a distinct edge, especially if
someone disagrees with you.

Inability to see that just about everybody who posts here has a *history*.
Given all the insults that have been directed Mike's way by the usual list
of self-professed subjectivists, its not like any of them have been giving
Mike the kid glove treatment.

I didn't notice in the FAQ that there was anyone
officially responsible here for 'holding' people
'accountable.'

See former comments about this place having a history.

Just now I ran three searches. One with 'Arny Krueger'
one with 'Arnold Krueger' and another with just 'Arny'
as authors on r.a.o only. The former came up with 44,300
posts; the latter 74,100.

IOW, far less than the 100,000's you claimed above.
Thanks for contradicting yourself, again.

No, 44,300 is indeed 'hundreds and thousands' of posts.
Inability to understand plain English noted.

Apology for error already offered once.

I also looked up 'George Middius' as the author on
r.a.o. That search showed 52,600 posts. I could see no
other variations that looked like the posts were his.

George used other nicknames including "Glanbrok". I
can't remember them all but in the early days they
changed pretty frequently.

I'd have no way of knowing that. From what I see today,
I'd put you and nob among the highest-volume posters here.

I still only answer a fraction of the posts that respond to my posts or
mention me.

Even assuming that you've made only 45,000 posts to
r.a.o., the difference in volume between you and Mr.
Middius is hardly 'overrunning' rec.audio.opinion,
especially in relationship to your posting quantity. I'd
guess you and he were running probably closer to 1-1, or
even more likely that you post more than he does.

Let's put it this way - even his defenders can only
remember a handful of posts on RAO by Middius that could
be called audio-related. Those 45,000 or more posts by
Middius were virtually all personal attacks. The vast
majority of those posts attacked me.

OTOH, my posts are predomiantely audio-related.

I don't doubt that. My question was not meant as a
qualitative study on posting content. My only question
was if the massive volume of audio-related posts from
you, nob, and the other 'usual suspects' had changed
anyone's mind.

It's a fair question, presuming that Mike or I had the intention of changing
anybody's mind. Nobody here has publicly changed their mind in years - even
in this century. Probabaly the most notable change of heart in the history
of RAO involved someone who posted under the handle of "gruvmeister" or some
such.

Besides, if someone goes away with a better understanding of audio on some
point of interest, is "conversion" even a valid criteria? Given all the
disinformation that the so-called subs around here posts, its a victory if
someone goes away a little bit less screwed up.

Just comnparing with both of your posts, it would be
equally truthful to say that you've overrun r.a.o. It
would probably be more truthful to say that neither of
you has.

It's true that I've overrun RAO with audio-related
posts, which were objectively true and based on orthodox
audio technology. It's equally true that Middius has
overrun RAO with personal attacks.

Have either of you changed anybody's mind?

Just curious.

I've never bothered to look for changed minds. Some say that most of the
minds that come through this portal are lurkers. By definition, we have no
idea what the lurker's opinons are, before, after or during their
experiences here.

Is Middius, Graham, Weil, or Atkinson going to post here one day that
anything they read here changed their mind? Highly unlikely. If it happened,
I wouldn't believe it was true until I watched their walk for a good part of
a year.

wrote in message


But George has haunted other newsgroups as well and
spread his swinish behavior to them as well.

George has stalked me to just a few groups. As I said before, he got shouted
down in several of them.

Any non-moderated audio group that Arny particpates in,
will generally have George's idiot contributions as well.

Only if georgeposts there under other names. I'm currently posting in about
18 groups, but only see George on RAO with any frequency.

These are newsgroups that are far over George's head,

Even RAO is over George's head, except for the wasteland he's turned it
into.

If you consider carefully, when was the last time that Atkinson made a
technical post here?

and his main purpose for posting is to harrass Arny, or
anyone who agrees with him on anything.

The vigor and number of George's postings has fallen off a lot.

George's act has regressed from the 9th grade level to the 5th grade level
over the years.

I think that not even George is stupid enough to keep posting in the groups
where he's been nailed and nailed hard for being his *sweet* self.

"George M. Middius" cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast
[dot] net wrote in message


BTW, for about the millionth time, why is it none of you
phoney Usenet "scientists" has any first-hand knowledge
of your beloved DBT rituals? We've had some Real Audio
Guys on RAO from time to time who do have genuine,
hands-on knowledge and experience with them. Two of them
are Glenn Zelniker and John Atkinson.

Zelniker never posted here with any frequency. Furthermore he was deathly
afraid of me on the stated grounds that I was too good at "The Debating
Trade".

I've never seen a case where Atkinson actually got the DBT thing right from
start to finish. I suspect that he's congenitally incapable of doing a
proper DBT simply because just about any interesting DBT would expose his
beliefs in audio floobydust.

Others may be Paul
Bamborough and Paul Frindle, although I can't remember
with certainty.

Paul "Bam Bam" Bamborough was a hoot - his all-time classic was his "expose"
of a an audio editing program now called "Audition" as being only a
destructive editor. Needless to say Audition's reputation as a
non-destructive editor vastly outlasted Bamborough's egregiously flawed
analysis.

Frindle never posted here with any frequency.

We Normals have great respect for all of
those guys, but you and the Krooborg hate and fear them.

Middius, its more like pity for the whole lot of you at this point. It must
really suck being you. If your stupidity doesn't kill you, the self-pity
and self-hate will.

"Fella" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! wrote:


I'm just curious. I just did a search of r.a.o. going back at least
eight years. Thousands and thousands of 'objectivist' posts by Mr.
Krueger, nob, and others.

Have these thousands of posts, representing hundreds and thousands of
man hours, been to any effect?

Has anyone ever actually changed their mind on how they think about
audio based on what they've read here?

Just curious...


I did. I used to read Arny back way back in the day, when I was just a
wee little lurker. I was a hard-boiled extremist objectivist. Even more
than Arny is. ABX was my religion, and I practiced it every day. You
couldn't convince me that ANYTHING sounded ANY different from ANYTHING
else in audio. Even loudspeakers all sounded the same, where I was
concerned. But after taking in a gutfull of Arny Krueger, he sickened
me so much, that I renounced the religion of objectivism, and smashed
my ABX comparator box with a mallet.

I even tore down my picture of sexy Dave Carlstrom, and today, as most
people know me, I'm an alternative audio guru. I always maintain an
even number of cd's in my collection, I cross out the bar codes in my
cd cases with a "specially treated" $150 red marker, and I park my car
in the same place and the same direction every day. All to ensure good
sound from my home audio. And I'm happy to report, the sound I'm
getting off my hifi kit has NEVER been better in all my days. So thank
you, Arny Krueger!


Troll BE GONE!

This post is almost proof that this is some borg posing as an extreme
audio subjectivist crackpot. The message to be derived from the text
above: If you abandon the objectivist abxism religion you become a pitiful
silly subjectivist crackpot troll with a $200 green marker stuck up your
butt.

"Fella" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! wrote:


I'm just curious. I just did a search of r.a.o. going back at least
eight years. Thousands and thousands of 'objectivist' posts by Mr.
Krueger, nob, and others.

Have these thousands of posts, representing hundreds and thousands of
man hours, been to any effect?

Has anyone ever actually changed their mind on how they think about
audio based on what they've read here?

Just curious...


I did. I used to read Arny back way back in the day, when I was just a
wee little lurker. I was a hard-boiled extremist objectivist. Even more
than Arny is. ABX was my religion, and I practiced it every day. You
couldn't convince me that ANYTHING sounded ANY different from ANYTHING
else in audio. Even loudspeakers all sounded the same, where I was
concerned. But after taking in a gutfull of Arny Krueger, he sickened
me so much, that I renounced the religion of objectivism, and smashed
my ABX comparator box with a mallet.

I even tore down my picture of sexy Dave Carlstrom, and today, as most
people know me, I'm an alternative audio guru. I always maintain an
even number of cd's in my collection, I cross out the bar codes in my
cd cases with a "specially treated" $150 red marker, and I park my car
in the same place and the same direction every day. All to ensure good
sound from my home audio. And I'm happy to report, the sound I'm
getting off my hifi kit has NEVER been better in all my days. So thank
you, Arny Krueger!


Troll BE GONE!

This post is almost proof that this is some borg posing as an extreme
audio subjectivist crackpot. The message to be derived from the text
above: If you abandon the objectivist abxism religion you become a pitiful
silly subjectivist crackpot troll with a $200 green marker stuck up your
butt.

And that's wrong because........???? :-)

From: Arny Krueger
Date: Mon, Mar 13 2006 11:27 am
Email: "Arny Krueger"

irrelevant parts snipped

I have made no 'false claim.'

Agreed - my error.

Thank you. I get a little touchy about being called a 'liar' here when
there is no cause for it. It seems to happen here with regularity.:-)

The so-called preference card is mostly just a part of an old sucker's game
played with decks that have a few cards missing and a lot of jokers.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this.

The mess hall where I was when I was deployed was run by the British.
One night we had the most beautiful steaks. They were about 2" thick
and good cuts. The British cooks smothered the top of the steak with
liver pate. The Brits preferred it that way. I, OTOH, thought they had
just destroyed a perfectly good steak.

This also does not address the night that they served haggis...

Inability to see that just about everybody who posts here has a *history*.
Given all the insults that have been directed Mike's way by the usual list
of self-professed subjectivists, its not like any of them have been giving
Mike the kid glove treatment.

I agree there is a history. I agree that I do not know about it. It
isn't a lack of ability. History implies that study is needed and I
simply have not done so.

I. too, have given nob my fair share of crap, but it has been mainly
about his political views, which I consider to be ill-advised and are
against what I deem is good for the country.

It's a fair question, presuming that Mike or I had the intention of changing
anybody's mind. Nobody here has publicly changed their mind in years - even
in this century. Probabaly the most notable change of heart in the history
of RAO involved someone who posted under the handle of "gruvmeister" or some
such.

So it would seem that the acrimony is just a part of life here, and
that even discussing it not worthwhile.

I'll search when I have more time. So that would seem to be one so far.

Besides, if someone goes away with a better understanding of audio on some
point of interest, is "conversion" even a valid criteria? Given all the
disinformation that the so-called subs around here posts, its a victory if
someone goes away a little bit less screwed up.

I have no problem with that. The only problem I have is with
preference. I think that they're entirely valid for that person. I
don't think that it's fair to say that they are a place to 'hide' or
whatever. As I said, we'll just disagree on that.

I've never bothered to look for changed minds. Some say that most of the
minds that come through this portal are lurkers. By definition, we have no
idea what the lurker's opinons are, before, after or during their
experiences here.

Is Middius, Graham, Weil, or Atkinson going to post here one day that
anything they read here changed their mind? Highly unlikely. If it happened,
I wouldn't believe it was true until I watched their walk for a good part of
a year.

It would be equally interesting to see how many people have swung their
opinion that way as well.

I note that both you and Mr. Middius have stated that changing minds is
not your goal, so maybe the question is not a fair one.

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
wrote in message
ups.com

I have no problem with that. The only problem I have is
with preference. I think that they're entirely valid for
that person. I don't think that it's fair to say that
they are a place to 'hide' or whatever. As I said, we'll
just disagree on that.

For me the hang up is pure preference versus preference for a technical
reason.

If someone says "I like haggis", what's to say? After all, I like scrapple
and that's not exactly everybody's taste.

If someone says "I like CDs with a green pen line around them because it
improves dynamics" then I see something to discuss.

Arny Krueger wrote:

If someone says "I like haggis", what's to say? After all, I like scrapple
and that's not exactly everybody's taste.

You can buy Scrapple in SE Michigan? Or do you have it imported?

Since I've never seen it in these parts I thought I was safe here (c:


//Walt

"Walt" wrote in message


Arny Krueger wrote:

If someone says "I like haggis", what's to say? After
all, I like scrapple and that's not exactly everybody's
taste.

You can buy Scrapple in SE Michigan?

Yes, we've even bought it in far-flung places like Flint, Agusta, and El
Paso.

Or do you have it imported?

No. We've also been known to make our own using the recipie in the Joy of
Cooking.

Since I've never seen it in these parts I thought I was
safe here (c:

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

I've reconsidered. I think that "liar" might be a little harsh. Let's go
with "fictionalist". ;-)


true, he is not in your class.



--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
wrote in message
ups.com

I have no problem with that. The only problem I have is
with preference. I think that they're entirely valid for
that person. I don't think that it's fair to say that
they are a place to 'hide' or whatever. As I said, we'll
just disagree on that.

For me the hang up is pure preference versus preference for a technical
reason.

If someone says "I like haggis", what's to say? After all, I like scrapple
and that's not exactly everybody's taste.

If someone says "I like CDs with a green pen line around them because it
improves dynamics" then I see something to discuss.



I think that the green pen line around the haggis degrades it somewhat.
Unless its a particularly nasty haggis, then it helps.
Let's discuss this.



--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access

Clyde Slick said:

If someone says "I like CDs with a green pen line around them because it
improves dynamics" then I see something to discuss.

I think that the green pen line around the haggis degrades it somewhat.
Unless its a particularly nasty haggis, then it helps.
Let's discuss this.

You're feeding the Beast's psychosis.

duh-Mikey shows why he's known far and wide as the stupidest Kroopologist
in the history of Usenet.

his main purpose for posting is to harrass Arny, or
anyone who agrees with him on anything.

Mickey, it's a proven fact that all of your ridiculous hangups about
"existence" and "reality" are complete nonsense. However, Krooger is much
more noxious than you are because he has a smattering of knowledge that
allows him to pollute many more threads than you do. If I had to choose
just one of you to drop dead tomorrow, it would be Arnii Kroofeces.

BTW, for about the millionth time, why is it none of you phoney Usenet
"scientists" has any first-hand knowledge of your beloved DBT rituals?
We've had some Real Audio Guys on RAO from time to time who do have
genuine, hands-on knowledge and experience with them. Two of them are
Glenn Zelniker and John Atkinson. Others may be Paul Bamborough and Paul
Frindle, although I can't remember with certainty. We Normals have great
respect for all of those guys, but you and the Krooborg hate and fear
them. Just something for you to think about, Mr. "scientist".

Fella ranted:

wrote:
Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! wrote:


I'm just curious. I just did a search of r.a.o. going back at least
eight years. Thousands and thousands of 'objectivist' posts by Mr.
Krueger, nob, and others.

Have these thousands of posts, representing hundreds and thousands of
man hours, been to any effect?

Has anyone ever actually changed their mind on how they think about
audio based on what they've read here?

Just curious...


I did. I used to read Arny back way back in the day, when I was just a
wee little lurker. I was a hard-boiled extremist objectivist. Even more
than Arny is. ABX was my religion, and I practiced it every day. You
couldn't convince me that ANYTHING sounded ANY different from ANYTHING
else in audio. Even loudspeakers all sounded the same, where I was
concerned. But after taking in a gutfull of Arny Krueger, he sickened
me so much, that I renounced the religion of objectivism, and smashed
my ABX comparator box with a mallet.

I even tore down my picture of sexy Dave Carlstrom, and today, as most
people know me, I'm an alternative audio guru. I always maintain an
even number of cd's in my collection, I cross out the bar codes in my
cd cases with a "specially treated" $150 red marker, and I park my car
in the same place and the same direction every day. All to ensure good
sound from my home audio. And I'm happy to report, the sound I'm
getting off my hifi kit has NEVER been better in all my days. So thank
you, Arny Krueger!


Troll BE GONE!

This post is almost proof that this is some borg posing as an extreme
audio subjectivist crackpot. The message to be derived from the text
above: If you abandon the objectivist abxism religion you become a
pitiful silly subjectivist crackpot troll with a $200 green marker stuck
up your butt.

Nice kook rant. So... are you going to ever back up any of your
********, or simply remain the ignorant twit that you so clearly are?

"George M. Middius" cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net wrote
in message ...


duh-Mikey shows why he's known far and wide as the stupidest Kroopologist
in
the history of Usenet.

his main purpose for posting is to harrass Arny, or
anyone who agrees with him on anything.

Mickey, it's a proven fact that all of your ridiculous hangups about
"existence" and "reality" are complete nonsense.

Proven by whom?

However, Krooger is much
more noxious than you are because he has a smattering of knowledge that
allows him to pollute many more threads than you do. If I had to choose
just
one of you to drop dead tomorrow, it would be Arnii Kroofeces.


And guess who I'd pick, swine?

BTW, for about the millionth time, why is it none of you phoney Usenet
"scientists" has any first-hand knowledge of your beloved DBT rituals?

Why is it that you think it is neccessary to have participated in something
in order to recognize it is valid?

We've
had some Real Audio Guys on RAO from time to time who do have genuine,
hands-on knowledge and experience with them. Two of them are Glenn
Zelniker
and John Atkinson. Others may be Paul Bamborough and Paul Frindle,
although
I can't remember with certainty. We Normals have great respect for all of
those guys, but you and the Krooborg hate and fear them. Just something
for
you to think about, Mr. "scientist".

Of course you do, they are all dishonest and many of them completely looney
and/or vulgar.

You keep forgetting that the 2 most real and qualified guys on usenet aside
from Arny are Dick Pierce and JJ, both of who back up Arny about 99% of the
time.

Calling yourself "normal" is ridiculous in the extreme, since "normal"
people aren't stalkers, liars and swine.

Oh yeah, they are also not sockpuppets.

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" wrote in message
oups.com...
From:
Date: Mon, Mar 13 2006 11:03 am
Email:

But George has haunted other newsgroups as well and spread his swinish
behavior to them as well.
Any non-moderated audio group that Arny particpates in, will generally
have
George's idiot contributions as well. These are newsgroups that are far
over George's head, and his main purpose for posting is to harrass Arny,
or
anyone who agrees with him on anything.

Which has nothing to do with the question that I asked.

Mr. Middius does seem to enjoy tweaking your noses.

So do others.

Who has had their mind changed regarding audio by either of you? My
sense is 'no one.' If anybody's mind has changed, they can post here
and say so.

After several years, and hundreds and thousands of posts, day one
tally: zero.

Bogus conclusion since you can't possibly know what effect there has been on
those who read but do not post.