I was having this discussion/argument with a live sound operator. The
group was full band, instruments in question guitar and bass, the goal,
hotter average signal level, with control and bringing up the quieter
aspects of the sound. Effected is okay and even desirable.

Now the argument: He doesn't believe in using the makeup gain control
on the compressor, at least not on this particular compressor. "Cheap,
noisy," whatever.

He says: use the clean gain from the channel on the console instead.
You can adjust the compressor and get the same results.

One of my first thoughts was: He's using the compressor like a limiter,
not the way I typcially use a compressor. What's the point if you don't
add any makeup gain (I understand there is a point in some
applications)?

Do you agree? But first consider, if he weren't using a compressor, he
would set levels with peaks at, say, 0. The compressor essentially
allows him to turn up the gain on the channel higher than he would
normally. So he is increasing the average signal level, correct? Is he
essentially doing the same thing the rest of us do when we adjust
makeup? I realize one concern might be clipping the input of the
compressor if he's sending too hot a signal. But let's assume that he
has enough headroom to play with. Gain is gain, regardless of if you
put it before or after the compressor. These were my second thoughts.


I understand compressors pretty well and have a good ear for using
them, but this one confused me.

He made the statement that some older gear didn't even have makeup gain
controls. Is this true?

wrote in message
oups.com...
I was having this discussion/argument with a live sound operator. The
group was full band, instruments in question guitar and bass, the goal,
hotter average signal level, with control and bringing up the quieter
aspects of the sound. Effected is okay and even desirable.

Now the argument: He doesn't believe in using the makeup gain control
on the compressor, at least not on this particular compressor. "Cheap,
noisy," whatever.

He says: use the clean gain from the channel on the console instead.
You can adjust the compressor and get the same results.

One of my first thoughts was: He's using the compressor like a limiter,
not the way I typcially use a compressor. What's the point if you don't
add any makeup gain (I understand there is a point in some
applications)?

He is adding makeup gain, outside the compressor. The thing is, he thinks
the output stage of the compressor is crappy, so he's running it at a lower
output level, which probably lessens the distortion (although not the
noise), and using the console for gain makeup. That's a perfectly valid
approach -- as you said, gain is gain, but if the output chips are really
crappy on the compressor he's probably getting cleaner results than he would
if he used the compressor's makeup gain control.

Peace,
Paul

wrote:

I was having this discussion/argument with a live sound operator. The
group was full band, instruments in question guitar and bass, the goal,
hotter average signal level, with control and bringing up the quieter
aspects of the sound. Effected is okay and even desirable.

Now the argument: He doesn't believe in using the makeup gain control
on the compressor, at least not on this particular compressor. "Cheap,
noisy," whatever.

He says: use the clean gain from the channel on the console instead.
You can adjust the compressor and get the same results.

One of my first thoughts was: He's using the compressor like a limiter,
not the way I typcially use a compressor. What's the point if you don't
add any makeup gain (I understand there is a point in some
applications)?

Do you agree? But first consider, if he weren't using a compressor, he
would set levels with peaks at, say, 0. The compressor essentially
allows him to turn up the gain on the channel higher than he would
normally. So he is increasing the average signal level, correct? Is he
essentially doing the same thing the rest of us do when we adjust
makeup? I realize one concern might be clipping the input of the
compressor if he's sending too hot a signal. But let's assume that he
has enough headroom to play with. Gain is gain, regardless of if you
put it before or after the compressor. These were my second thoughts.

I understand compressors pretty well and have a good ear for using
them, but this one confused me.

He made the statement that some older gear didn't even have makeup gain
controls. Is this true?

Sounds like he doesn't have a clue to me.

Graham

Paul Stamler wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...
I was having this discussion/argument with a live sound operator. The
group was full band, instruments in question guitar and bass, the goal,
hotter average signal level, with control and bringing up the quieter
aspects of the sound. Effected is okay and even desirable.

Now the argument: He doesn't believe in using the makeup gain control
on the compressor, at least not on this particular compressor. "Cheap,
noisy," whatever.

He says: use the clean gain from the channel on the console instead.
You can adjust the compressor and get the same results.

One of my first thoughts was: He's using the compressor like a limiter,
not the way I typcially use a compressor. What's the point if you don't
add any makeup gain (I understand there is a point in some
applications)?

He is adding makeup gain, outside the compressor. The thing is, he thinks
the output stage of the compressor is crappy, so he's running it at a lower
output level, which probably lessens the distortion (although not the
noise), and using the console for gain makeup. That's a perfectly valid
approach -- as you said, gain is gain, but if the output chips are really
crappy on the compressor

They won't be in reality. What kind of 'chips' can you think of that are really
crappy ? Surely if there are *any* 'crappy chips' in there the whole compressor
is suspect ? Why would 'crappy chips' be reserved for the GMU ?

he's probably getting cleaner results than he would
if he used the compressor's makeup gain control.

Very unlikely. He just sounds like a toss-pot.

Graham

Paul Stamler wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...
I was having this discussion/argument with a live sound operator. The
group was full band, instruments in question guitar and bass, the goal,
hotter average signal level, with control and bringing up the quieter
aspects of the sound. Effected is okay and even desirable.

Now the argument: He doesn't believe in using the makeup gain control
on the compressor, at least not on this particular compressor. "Cheap,
noisy," whatever.

He says: use the clean gain from the channel on the console instead.
You can adjust the compressor and get the same results.

One of my first thoughts was: He's using the compressor like a limiter,
not the way I typcially use a compressor. What's the point if you don't
add any makeup gain (I understand there is a point in some
applications)?

He is adding makeup gain, outside the compressor.

A typical SR console only has one stage of gain at the front end so I'd like to
see how he can do that.

Graham

wrote in news:1138603496.566432.157320
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

Now the argument: He doesn't believe in using the makeup gain control
on the compressor, at least not on this particular compressor. "Cheap,
noisy," whatever.

If he's compressing a noisy source, the compressed signal will sound cheap
and noisy regardless of whether he uses the console or compressor to make
up the gain.

wrote:
I was having this discussion/argument with a live sound operator. The
group was full band, instruments in question guitar and bass, the goal,
hotter average signal level, with control and bringing up the quieter
aspects of the sound. Effected is okay and even desirable.

Now the argument: He doesn't believe in using the makeup gain control
on the compressor, at least not on this particular compressor. "Cheap,
noisy," whatever.

He says: use the clean gain from the channel on the console instead.
You can adjust the compressor and get the same results.

One of my first thoughts was: He's using the compressor like a limiter,
not the way I typcially use a compressor. What's the point if you don't
add any makeup gain (I understand there is a point in some
applications)?

Do you agree? But first consider, if he weren't using a compressor, he
would set levels with peaks at, say, 0. The compressor essentially
allows him to turn up the gain on the channel higher than he would
normally. So he is increasing the average signal level, correct? Is he
essentially doing the same thing the rest of us do when we adjust
makeup? I realize one concern might be clipping the input of the
compressor if he's sending too hot a signal. But let's assume that he
has enough headroom to play with. Gain is gain, regardless of if you
put it before or after the compressor. These were my second thoughts.


I understand compressors pretty well and have a good ear for using
them, but this one confused me.

He made the statement that some older gear didn't even have makeup gain
controls. Is this true?

I don't understand your insistence that the guy turn up the
makeup gain pot - the guy you were arguing with probably doesn't
either. It is true as you likely learned in "Audio 101" that a
standard way to use a compressor is to add a db of gain for every db
you reduce. But as the guy was trying to explain, you *can* add any
desired makeup gain with the console, from the channel fader if the
insert is prefader or from a group if the insert is post fader. And if
he was just happy to knock off some gain when things get loud, without
makeup gain at all, lots of guys use compressors like that. I have
seen lots of very experienced guys who make a lot of money work that
way (and some of them even do good work... g )

If a guy says he doesn't like what it sounds like when you turn
up the gain pot on the compressor, then he doesn't want to do that.
And it is true that many older compressors do not have a manual makeup
gain pot.

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

wrote:
I was having this discussion/argument with a live sound operator.

He doesn't believe in using the makeup gain control
on the compressor, at least not on this particular compressor. "Cheap,
noisy," whatever.

He says: use the clean gain from the channel on the console instead.
You can adjust the compressor and get the same results.

Maybe, maybe not. It depends on the console and the compressor, but
really it depends on the gain structure of the console, and they're not
all the same.

One of my first thoughts was: He's using the compressor like a limiter,
not the way I typcially use a compressor. What's the point if you don't
add any makeup gain (I understand there is a point in some
applications)?

The purpose of a compreessor is to reduce gain when things get loud.
You use the "make-up gain" control to get the output back to the same
level as the input, but hopefully with less difference between the
quiet and loud parts. If all you use it for is an amplifier, you don't
need a compressor, you need an ampllifier (or you need a louder source,
a more sensitive microphone, a different microphone position, or to
increase the input gain on the console).

Do you agree? But first consider, if he weren't using a compressor, he
would set levels with peaks at, say, 0. The compressor essentially
allows him to turn up the gain on the channel higher than he would
normally. So he is increasing the average signal level, correct?

Yes. This is what a compressor does - raises the average level (which
we perceive as loudness) without increasing the level of the peaks,
which could cause distortion when they get too high ("above, say, 0.
But still, the overall volume is determined by how loud you turn things
up AFTER the compressor. Think of the compressor as something that
doesn't make a source louder, but rarher, that brings the quiet parts
up to a level where they're no longer so quiet. That's what a
compressor should be used for.

Is he
essentially doing the same thing the rest of us do when we adjust
makeup? I realize one concern might be clipping the input of the
compressor if he's sending too hot a signal. But let's assume that he
has enough headroom to play with. Gain is gain, regardless of if you
put it before or after the compressor. These were my second thoughts.

Gain is gain, but noise is noise. The place to get all the gain you
need is at the front end. That's what the Mic Trim controls on the
console do. If you keep that too low, and then stick a compressor in
line, using the compressor for gain, you'll be using the compressor to
amplifiy the noise of the mic preamp. That's not ideal.

He made the statement that some older gear didn't even have makeup gain
controls. Is this true?

Yes and no. The function usually exists, but there may not be a
separate knob for it.

Remember - a compressor is more than an adjustable amplifier. If that's
what you're using it for, you don't completely understand its purpose.

wrote:

Now the argument: He doesn't believe in using the makeup gain control
on the compressor, at least not on this particular compressor. "Cheap,
noisy," whatever.

He says: use the clean gain from the channel on the console instead.
You can adjust the compressor and get the same results.

Okay, that's fine. You can add gain with a gain stage inside the
compressor, or you can add gain with a gain stage outside the compressor.

If the compressor output stage is kind of wimpy and overloads easily,
this might not be a bad idea.

One of my first thoughts was: He's using the compressor like a limiter,
not the way I typcially use a compressor. What's the point if you don't
add any makeup gain (I understand there is a point in some
applications)?

He _is_ adding makeup gain, but he's doing it _after_ the compressor
rather than inside the compressor. Whether he's using it like a limiter
or a slow compressor doesn't matter.

He made the statement that some older gear didn't even have makeup gain
controls. Is this true?

Sure. I have a bunch of broadcast compressors that don't even have
makeup gain... they are just a CdS cell shunted across the 600 ohm
line with a detector driving a light bulb nearby.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

wrote:
I was having this discussion/argument with a live sound operator. The
group was full band, instruments in question guitar and bass, the goal,
hotter average signal level, with control and bringing up the quieter
aspects of the sound. Effected is okay and even desirable.

Now the argument: He doesn't believe in using the makeup gain control
on the compressor, at least not on this particular compressor. "Cheap,
noisy," whatever.

He says: use the clean gain from the channel on the console instead.
You can adjust the compressor and get the same results.

One of my first thoughts was: He's using the compressor like a limiter,
not the way I typcially use a compressor. What's the point if you don't
add any makeup gain (I understand there is a point in some
applications)?

Do you agree? But first consider, if he weren't using a compressor, he
would set levels with peaks at, say, 0. The compressor essentially
allows him to turn up the gain on the channel higher than he would
normally. So he is increasing the average signal level, correct? Is he
essentially doing the same thing the rest of us do when we adjust
makeup? I realize one concern might be clipping the input of the
compressor if he's sending too hot a signal. But let's assume that he
has enough headroom to play with. Gain is gain, regardless of if you
put it before or after the compressor. These were my second thoughts.


I understand compressors pretty well and have a good ear for using
them, but this one confused me.

You've confused me. Where, in the audio chain, is/are the compressor(s)
inserted? I'm kind of inferring that you mean that there is a pair of
compressors (or a two channel unit) *inserted* in the bass and guitar
channels. IMO, in that case, it doesn't make much dif, unless cranking
the gain to achieve unity through the strip would exceed the output
capabilities of the comp...very unlikely.

I personally like to see something like unity throughout the audio
chain--up to the amps of course--but YMMV.

In any case, a bit of detail on signal flow, equipment types, type of
music etc would make this much less a theoretical discussion, as opposed
to giving you some real-world advice.

He made the statement that some older gear didn't even have makeup gain
controls. Is this true?

True.

jak

Scott Dorsey wrote:

wrote:

Now the argument: He doesn't believe in using the makeup gain control
on the compressor, at least not on this particular compressor. "Cheap,
noisy," whatever.

He says: use the clean gain from the channel on the console instead.
You can adjust the compressor and get the same results.

Okay, that's fine. You can add gain with a gain stage inside the
compressor, or you can add gain with a gain stage outside the compressor.

If the compressor output stage is kind of wimpy and overloads easily,
this might not be a bad idea.

One of my first thoughts was: He's using the compressor like a limiter,
not the way I typcially use a compressor. What's the point if you don't
add any makeup gain (I understand there is a point in some
applications)?

He _is_ adding makeup gain, but he's doing it _after_ the compressor
rather than inside the compressor. Whether he's using it like a limiter
or a slow compressor doesn't matter.

I agree with all of that. One thing to watch out for, though, is that
taking make-up gain at the mixer may require/allow doing so individually
for each of the various mixes. For example, different make-up gain can
be applied to each of the main, effects send, and cue/monitor mixes.
Whether this is a problem or an advantage might depend on point of view.

He made the statement that some older gear didn't even have makeup gain
controls. Is this true?

Sure. I have a bunch of broadcast compressors that don't even have
makeup gain... they are just a CdS cell shunted across the 600 ohm
line with a detector driving a light bulb nearby.

My first exposure to dynamics compression was in broadcasting and, indeed,
there were no make-up gain stages. When I was first introduced to units
with make-up gain I had to do some learning in order to understand why I
wanted and needed that gain.

--
================================================== ======================
Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make
| two, one and one make one."
mrkesti at comcast dot net | - The Who, Bargain

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...

He is adding makeup gain, outside the compressor. The thing is, he
thinks
the output stage of the compressor is crappy, so he's running it at a
lower
output level, which probably lessens the distortion (although not the
noise), and using the console for gain makeup. That's a perfectly valid
approach -- as you said, gain is gain, but if the output chips are
really
crappy on the compressor

They won't be in reality. What kind of 'chips' can you think of that are
really
crappy ?

4558 dual opamps and their relatives, found on crappy gear worldwide.

Surely if there are *any* 'crappy chips' in there the whole compressor
is suspect ?

Yes.

Why would 'crappy chips' be reserved for the GMU ?

They probably aren't, but it's not unknown for the variable-gain chip to be
okay and the i/o chips to be junk, usually the two halves of a 4558. On some
units there's no control over what goes through the input amplifier.


he's probably getting cleaner results than he would
if he used the compressor's makeup gain control.

Very unlikely. He just sounds like a toss-pot.

That is, of course, also possible. But he may be doing the best he can with
the gear he's stuck with.

Peace,
Paul

On 29 Jan 2006 23:01:32 -0800, wrote:

Now the argument: He doesn't believe in using the makeup gain control
on the compressor, at least not on this particular compressor. "Cheap,
noisy," whatever.

He says: use the clean gain from the channel on the console instead.
You can adjust the compressor and get the same results.

After the compression comes the gain. You can do it in the compressor
box or in the next box along the line. This guy feels the amp in the
compressor box is lousy, so he adds gain elsewhere. Why does this
give you a problem?