Hi all,

I've been asked by a klezmer band to record a CD for them this spring.
As it is, though, I have a fairly limited collection of mics, which
consists of 2x Octava MC012 (soon to be Dorsey-modded), 2x CAD E-200,
3x SM57, 3x SM58. So, I'm interested in hearing how klezmer bands
usually prefer to be recorded. This particular band consists of 2
violins, 1 trombone, 1 flute, 1 clarinet, 1 percussionist/saxophonist
(I imagine only one at a time, though he is quite talented ;-) ), a
piano, and a bass.

One possibility of course is to stick the MC012s or E-200s in a stereo
pair in a good location in a good room, put up a couple spot mics here
or there on things that I think may need help in the mix, and hit
"record". Does this sound like a viable option? Or would those who have
experience with klezmer recommend more of a spot miked approach? As for
input, I can easily accomodate 10-track, and if necessary can scale up
to 18.

My other two options as I see it would be a) do the tracking at a local
studio with more access to suitable mics, or b) rent more suitable mics
for tracking. I'd imagine a couple KM184s, C414s, or even possibly
ribbon mics might be good bets on this ensemble. Unfortunately, the
group has very low budget for the entire CD, so doing the entire
tracking/mixing at a properly equipped studio isn't really an option.

I imagine, given the style of music, that your typical rock-style
overdubbing process is not at all appropriate, and any recording will
have to be done all-at-once. I don't have any iso booth or headphone
distribution available, but I do have access to several decently sized
rooms of varying acoustic properties.

Thanks
-Todd Lipcon

Todd Lipcon wrote:
I've been asked by a klezmer band to record a CD for them this spring.
As it is, though, I have a fairly limited collection of mics, which
consists of 2x Octava MC012 (soon to be Dorsey-modded), 2x CAD E-200,
3x SM57, 3x SM58. So, I'm interested in hearing how klezmer bands
usually prefer to be recorded.

Don't ask us, ask them. See if they want to record completely live,
whether they want to leave out lead parts (or maybe just vocals) and
track them later, or if they want to build up tracks from a rhythm
section, or something else. You should have enough stuff there to do
whatever they want, but you should plan ahead. Make sure that they
understand that if the want to record live, they can't fix or replace
parts. But that if they don't have at least the core group playing
live, they will never get the feel that they're after. They may need to
practice playing without certain parts that they want to do as
overdubs.

1 percussionist/saxophonist
(I imagine only one at a time, though he is quite talented ;-) )

He probably does both when they play live and may want to do that when
they record. Go to a show or a rehearsal or two and see how they work
when they're not under pressure to record.

I imagine, given the style of music, that your typical rock-style
overdubbing process is not at all appropriate, and any recording will
have to be done all-at-once.

Not necessarily. For one thing, they might have "studio expectations"
that can only be satisfied by isolating tracks. But they might want to
overdub vocals, and perhaps solos that tend to get a little spirited
and they might not want to live on their recording with what's a lot of
fun on stage. You really need to talk this over with the group, explain
the possibilities and decide how you want to work. They might be
perfectly comfortable with doing a few live takes of each song, picking
the best one, maybe doing a little editing from alternate takes, and
it's done. Or they might want to make sure they can do some parts
perfectly, which almost always means isolating (either in another room
or at another time) and overdubbing.

I've worked with more than one klezmer band where the leader has told
me "the second fiddle player isn't very good so don't turn him up too
loud." You have to be really careful if you have that kind of
situation.

I don't have any iso booth or headphone
distribution available, but I do have access to several decently sized
rooms of varying acoustic properties.

I suspect that they'll want some sort of headphone mix unless you all
agree that you can record them without isolation. You can probably do
anything they want to do, but you need to work a plan out with the band
so that they'll be both comfortable when recording and happy with the
result.

Hi Todd,

You might be best off trying the first approach (stereo mics on the
band and then spot mics on as many instruments as you can use, given
the restrictions of your equipment).

If the band is good, and does a good job of controling their own
volumes this could produce a first class recording. If nothing else,
this approach should teach the musicians a thing or two about how to
perform.

Find a good hall to record in! if you're going to go the simple
approach, the room acoustics are all important.

You could certainly close mic everything, as well as a couple of room
mics. How big is the percussion rig? Typically Klezmer has a drumset.
You'll need to mic the kick as well as an overhead pair. More if
possible. I would put up a different mic for the sax - the levels will
be very different. But, how confident are you that you can mix this
all and get a good sound? That's the beauty of the two mic approach.

I used to do live sound for the Klezmer Conservatory here in Boston.
We miced everything as if it were a rock band. I believe they did the
same thing in the studio (engineered by my friend and often partner,
George Hicks).

The more mics you use the more assurance that you've got what you want.
But, at the same time, the more mics you use, the harder it will be to
get a good balanced mix. It will all depend on your time and talent.

wrote:
Hi Todd,

You might be best off trying the first approach (stereo mics on the
band and then spot mics on as many instruments as you can use, given
the restrictions of your equipment).

If the band is good, and does a good job of controling their own
volumes this could produce a first class recording. If nothing else,
this approach should teach the musicians a thing or two about how to
perform.

Find a good hall to record in! if you're going to go the simple
approach, the room acoustics are all important.

You could certainly close mic everything, as well as a couple of room
mics. How big is the percussion rig? Typically Klezmer has a drumset.
You'll need to mic the kick as well as an overhead pair. More if
possible. I would put up a different mic for the sax - the levels will
be very different. But, how confident are you that you can mix this
all and get a good sound? That's the beauty of the two mic approach.

I used to do live sound for the Klezmer Conservatory here in Boston.
We miced everything as if it were a rock band. I believe they did the
same thing in the studio (engineered by my friend and often partner,
George Hicks).

The more mics you use the more assurance that you've got what you want.
But, at the same time, the more mics you use, the harder it will be to
get a good balanced mix. It will all depend on your time and talent.

Todd,

where I you located??

I would also get some CDs of other Klezmer groups and review them with
your group and ask them how they would like to sound compared to
those...

.... probably prominent clarinet and drums ....


Mark

Hi all,

First, thanks for all the quick responses. And now my response to the
various questions/suggestions:

Mike Rivers wrote:
Don't ask us, ask them.

Of course I sent an email back to them immediately, but figured I'd
check in with RAP to see if anyone had experience from this end of the
process. The band is Brown University's klezmer band, Yarmulkazi. Being
a student group, they don't record that often, so probably don't have a
lot of fixed expectations.

I suspect that they'll want some sort of headphone mix unless you all
agree that you can record them without isolation

I wish I could provide this, but the majority of recording I do is
either live performance or all-together sessions, and I'm not making
enough money to justify buying even a cheapo headphone amp. Most of my
gigs don't have the time to do the whole overdubbing process.

Ken [Google is obscuring his last name] wrote:

You could certainly close mic everything, as well as a couple of room
mics.

That's what I was figuring. I just feel like I'm short a couple mics to
do all the instruments justice. Wish I had a pair of 414s

How big is the percussion rig? Typically Klezmer has a drumset.
You'll need to mic the kick as well as an overhead pair.

Yup, I'm familiar with this setup, and that was my plan as well if
going with individual mics.

More if possible. I would put up a different mic for the sax - the levels will
be very different. But, how confident are you that you can mix this
all and get a good sound? That's the beauty of the two mic approach.

I'm by no means an expert mixer, but this is probably my 5th or 6th
full length CD that would come from a multitrack, so I'm not a rank
newbie either. I have a lot of musical training, so the balancing act
isn't too tough, and I've done 15+ theatre sound designs as well, so my
ears have decent training for EQ, compression, etc.

Mark wrote:

where I you located??

Providence, RI. I'm also a student at Brown University.

I would also get some CDs of other Klezmer groups and review them with
your group and ask them how they would like to sound compared to
those...

Good idea. I'll ask the person who contacted me if he has some sample
CDs I could borrow to get a sense of the musical style, as it is not
one with which I am very familiar.

Thanks for all the help,
Todd

Todd Lipcon wrote:
Hi all,

First, thanks for all the quick responses. And now my response to the
various questions/suggestions:

Mike Rivers wrote:
Don't ask us, ask them.

Of course I sent an email back to them immediately, but figured I'd
check in with RAP to see if anyone had experience from this end of the
process. The band is Brown University's klezmer band, Yarmulkazi. Being
a student group, they don't record that often, so probably don't have a
lot of fixed expectations.

I suspect that they'll want some sort of headphone mix unless you all
agree that you can record them without isolation

I wish I could provide this, but the majority of recording I do is
either live performance or all-together sessions, and I'm not making
enough money to justify buying even a cheapo headphone amp. Most of my
gigs don't have the time to do the whole overdubbing process.

Ken [Google is obscuring his last name] wrote:

You could certainly close mic everything, as well as a couple of room
mics.

That's what I was figuring. I just feel like I'm short a couple mics to
do all the instruments justice. Wish I had a pair of 414s

How big is the percussion rig? Typically Klezmer has a drumset.
You'll need to mic the kick as well as an overhead pair.

Yup, I'm familiar with this setup, and that was my plan as well if
going with individual mics.

More if possible. I would put up a different mic for the sax - the levels will
be very different. But, how confident are you that you can mix this
all and get a good sound? That's the beauty of the two mic approach.

I'm by no means an expert mixer, but this is probably my 5th or 6th
full length CD that would come from a multitrack, so I'm not a rank
newbie either. I have a lot of musical training, so the balancing act
isn't too tough, and I've done 15+ theatre sound designs as well, so my
ears have decent training for EQ, compression, etc.

Mark wrote:

where I you located??

Providence, RI. I'm also a student at Brown University.

I would also get some CDs of other Klezmer groups and review them with
your group and ask them how they would like to sound compared to
those...

Good idea. I'll ask the person who contacted me if he has some sample
CDs I could borrow to get a sense of the musical style, as it is not
one with which I am very familiar.

Thanks for all the help,
Todd

Todd,
could you email me at
mkolber "at" verizon "dot" net
I may be interested in working with you on this project if you are
interested in help

Mark
..

"Todd Lipcon" wrote in message
oups.com...

I've been asked by a klezmer band to record a CD for them this spring.
As it is, though, I have a fairly limited collection of mics, which
consists of 2x Octava MC012 (soon to be Dorsey-modded), 2x CAD E-200,
3x SM57, 3x SM58. So, I'm interested in hearing how klezmer bands
usually prefer to be recorded. This particular band consists of 2
violins, 1 trombone, 1 flute, 1 clarinet, 1 percussionist/saxophonist
(I imagine only one at a time, though he is quite talented ;-) ), a
piano, and a bass.

One possibility of course is to stick the MC012s or E-200s in a stereo
pair in a good location in a good room, put up a couple spot mics here
or there on things that I think may need help in the mix, and hit
"record". Does this sound like a viable option? Or would those who have
experience with klezmer recommend more of a spot miked approach?

If you can do it, I'd try that first. The hard part will, as always, be
finding a room that's (a) acoustically good; (b) available; (c) quiet; and
(d) equipped with a good piano. But if you can, my bet is you could get a
*dynamite* recording. Maybe rent a couple of KM84s (if available, or KM184s
if not) to spot the fiddles.

My other two options as I see it would be a) do the tracking at a local
studio with more access to suitable mics, or b) rent more suitable mics
for tracking. I'd imagine a couple KM184s, C414s, or even possibly
ribbon mics might be good bets on this ensemble. Unfortunately, the
group has very low budget for the entire CD, so doing the entire
tracking/mixing at a properly equipped studio isn't really an option.

I think these would also be viable options; if you're a good mixer, you
should be able to do a good "in-the-box" mix on this band.

I imagine, given the style of music, that your typical rock-style
overdubbing process is not at all appropriate, and any recording will
have to be done all-at-once. I don't have any iso booth or headphone
distribution available, but I do have access to several decently sized
rooms of varying acoustic properties.

If you wind up going multitrack, try first recording everyone in one room
anyway; if you manage the leakage properly, you can get a very good-sounding
recording, and the interaction is *always* better in a single room than over
headphones in another room.

Peace,
Paul

Todd Lipcon wrote:
the majority of recording I do is
either live performance or all-together sessions, and I'm not making
enough money to justify buying even a cheapo headphone amp. Most of my
gigs don't have the time to do the whole overdubbing process.

In that case, you really don't have any options. You should explain
this to the band, and either they'll go along with it or they'll look
for someone else to record them. They may or may not get a better
reording, but if they're uncomfortable with people actualy hearing what
they play they should do what makes them happy.

If the band is good, you should be able to do a perfectly reasonable
job.