Could you please recommend a microphone for use in Weddings and
restaurants where noise levels are high? Not only the high noise but
the sound from the other band members. I need something that will
pick up mostly what I point it at and nothing else.

What are some good microphones with the following characteristics:

* High gain before feedback.
* Good rejection of sound outside the pattern.
* Good guitar sound.

I need something versatile for use with nylon and steel string guitars.
I may use it on other instruments in the future as well. When playing
restaurants and weddings I can get along fine with my pickup on my
steel string. However, with a nylon string you don't have this option.
What can do both well?

I don't have a lot of money but I wouldn't mind splurging on something
that I see as an investment if I will be happy with it.

Along the same vein, what would be a good amp for use in such an
enviroment?

wrote:
Could you please recommend a microphone for use in Weddings and
restaurants where noise levels are high? Not only the high noise but
the sound from the other band members. I need something that will
pick up mostly what I point it at and nothing else.

What are some good microphones with the following characteristics:

* High gain before feedback.
* Good rejection of sound outside the pattern.
* Good guitar sound.

I need something versatile for use with nylon and steel string guitars.
I may use it on other instruments in the future as well. When playing
restaurants and weddings I can get along fine with my pickup on my
steel string. However, with a nylon string you don't have this option.
What can do both well?

I don't have a lot of money but I wouldn't mind splurging on something
that I see as an investment if I will be happy with it.

A few hypercardioid models worth hearing:

Sennheiser MD-431 (four thirty one, not four twenty one)
Beyer M-201
Elevtro-Voice N/D-408 or the 468

Thanks very much, the Beyer m-201 looks like just the thing.


wrote:
A few hypercardioid models worth hearing:

Sennheiser MD-431 (four thirty one, not four twenty one)
Beyer M-201
Elevtro-Voice N/D-408 or the 468

wrote:
Could you please recommend a microphone for use in Weddings and
restaurants where noise levels are high? Not only the high noise but
the sound from the other band members. I need something that will
pick up mostly what I point it at and nothing else.

What are some good microphones with the following characteristics:

* High gain before feedback.
* Good rejection of sound outside the pattern.
* Good guitar sound.

I need something versatile for use with nylon and steel string guitars.
I may use it on other instruments in the future as well. When playing
restaurants and weddings I can get along fine with my pickup on my
steel string. However, with a nylon string you don't have this option.
What can do both well?

Actually, you can get a piezo pickup for the nylon string guitar. Check
out the units from Pick Up the World. They'll never sound all that great,
and they'll never sound like a mike, but they'll give you better gain before
feedback than you'll ever get with a mike.

I don't have a lot of money but I wouldn't mind splurging on something
that I see as an investment if I will be happy with it.

What have you been using that you aren't happy with? How are you placing
your monitors?
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I think I hit send to author by mistake so I'm trying this again.
Sorry If it ends up as a double post.

I just had one Roland 100W amp faced out ten feet in front of me.

I was using a Neumann KMS 105 vocal mic for the vocals and a Neumann
KM184 for guitar. I am convinced now that the KM184 is not suited for
live micing, especially not weddings or a restaurant where the KM184
wants to pick up the surrounding sound.

So I'm looking now at mics like that Beyer M201. I prefer the sound of
a mic to a pickup so I'll be using it with my acoustic guitars as well.

I ended up using just the KMS105 and disconnecting the KM184. It's a
great mic in the studio, just not for live gigs.

I was thinking about getting the MackieSRM350 on recommendation from a
DJ.


Scott Dorsey wrote:
wrote:
Could you please recommend a microphone for use in Weddings and
restaurants where noise levels are high? Not only the high noise but
the sound from the other band members. I need something that will
pick up mostly what I point it at and nothing else.

What are some good microphones with the following characteristics:

* High gain before feedback.
* Good rejection of sound outside the pattern.
* Good guitar sound.

I need something versatile for use with nylon and steel string guitars.
I may use it on other instruments in the future as well. When playing
restaurants and weddings I can get along fine with my pickup on my
steel string. However, with a nylon string you don't have this option.
What can do both well?

Actually, you can get a piezo pickup for the nylon string guitar. Check
out the units from Pick Up the World. They'll never sound all that great,
and they'll never sound like a mike, but they'll give you better gain before
feedback than you'll ever get with a mike.

I don't have a lot of money but I wouldn't mind splurging on something
that I see as an investment if I will be happy with it.

What have you been using that you aren't happy with? How are you placing
your monitors?
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

wrote in
oups.com:



I ended up using just the KMS105 and disconnecting the KM184. It's a
great mic in the studio, just not for live gigs.


Send me your KM184 and I'll send one of my 3 201s in return

Seriously though, a 201 would be a good choice.

wrote:
I just had one Roland 100W amp faced out ten feet in front of me.

I was using a Neumann KMS 105 vocal mic for the vocals and a Neumann
KM184 for guitar. I am convinced now that the KM184 is not suited for
live micing, especially not weddings or a restaurant where the KM184
wants to pick up the surrounding sound.

So, what if you use the KMS105 for guitar? Does that give you good
enough gain before feedback? Do you like what it does to the top end
or not?

So I'm looking now at mics like that Beyer M201. I prefer the sound of
a mic to a pickup so I'll be using it with my acoustic guitars as well.

It's a good mike. So is the Sennheiser 441 and the EV N/D 468. The
468 is the cheapest of the set, the 441 is probably the most neutral,
but all of them have great patterns.

I was thinking about getting the MackieSRM350 on recommendation from a
DJ.

You can do worse, and it doesn't weigh a lot.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I've been doing some tests today with both mics almost capsule to
capsule. I'm not a professional engineer and my room is still a work
in progress. I have some bass trapping in the corners and a closet
full of bass hangers. The room is 12x10x8 feet.

Mic 1: Neumann KM184 Cardioid
Mic 2: Neumann KMS 105 Super-Cardioid

Guitar: The Neumann km184 is a better mic for guitar in the studio.
The sound is fuller and less brittle and the atmosphere(room sound) is
better captured. The KMS105 requires more gain to get similar results
and is almost identical. The sound is not quite as rich as the KM184
though.

Vocals: I put the foam wind screen that came with the KM184 on it.
Both microphones at identical distances from my voice. I found a hands
width away was the best distance. Too far and it lacked fullness, too
close and the bass was predominant.

The KMS and km184 sound almost identical as a vocal mic. The only real
difference was less room sound from the KMS and less 'plosives and
spikes in the wave. Again the KMS requires more gain but in a live
situation I find it has more gain before feedback. The sound feels
like it's smoother but less detailed than the KM184. The KM184 had
large spikes but with a pop screen this could be controlled. The sound
is great and I could see it being used as a vocal mic in a studio or
quiet live situation.

The sound... I like the fullness of the km184 but in a live situation
the KMS105 is a much better mic to have especially as a vocalist that
holds the mic. These tests were done with the mics on stands with
capsules almost touching.

Forty Winks, I was wondering, how do you find the sound of the Beyer
201 on guitar?






Scott Dorsey wrote:
wrote:
I just had one Roland 100W amp faced out ten feet in front of me.

I was using a Neumann KMS 105 vocal mic for the vocals and a Neumann
KM184 for guitar. I am convinced now that the KM184 is not suited for
live micing, especially not weddings or a restaurant where the KM184
wants to pick up the surrounding sound.

So, what if you use the KMS105 for guitar? Does that give you good
enough gain before feedback? Do you like what it does to the top end
or not?

So I'm looking now at mics like that Beyer M201. I prefer the sound of
a mic to a pickup so I'll be using it with my acoustic guitars as well.

It's a good mike. So is the Sennheiser 441 and the EV N/D 468. The
468 is the cheapest of the set, the 441 is probably the most neutral,
but all of them have great patterns.

I was thinking about getting the MackieSRM350 on recommendation from a
DJ.

You can do worse, and it doesn't weigh a lot.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I've been doing some tests today with both mics almost capsule to
capsule. I'm not a professional engineer and my room is still a work
in progress. I have some bass trapping in the corners and a closet
full of bass hangers. The room is 12x10x8 feet.

Mic 1: Neumann KM184 Cardioid
Mic 2: Neumann KMS 105 Super-Cardioid

Guitar: The Neumann km184 is a better mic for guitar in the studio.
The sound is fuller and less brittle and the atmosphere(room sound) is
better captured. The KMS105 requires more gain to get similar results
and is almost identical. The sound is not quite as rich as the KM184
though.

Vocals: I put the foam wind screen that came with the KM184 on it.
Both microphones at identical distances from my voice. I found a hands
width away was the best distance. Too far and it lacked fullness, too
close and the bass was predominant.

The KMS and km184 sound almost identical as a vocal mic. The only real
difference was less room sound from the KMS and less 'plosives and
spikes in the wave. Again the KMS requires more gain but in a live
situation I find it has more gain before feedback. The sound feels
like it's smoother but less detailed than the KM184. The KM184 had
large spikes but with a pop screen this could be controlled. The sound
is great and I could see it being used as a vocal mic in a studio or
quiet live situation.

The sound... I like the fullness of the km184 but in a live situation
the KMS105 is a much better mic to have especially as a vocalist that
holds the mic. These tests were done with the mics on stands with
capsules almost touching.

Forty Winks, I was wondering, how do you find the sound of the Beyer
201 on guitar?






Scott Dorsey wrote:
wrote:
I just had one Roland 100W amp faced out ten feet in front of me.

I was using a Neumann KMS 105 vocal mic for the vocals and a Neumann
KM184 for guitar. I am convinced now that the KM184 is not suited for
live micing, especially not weddings or a restaurant where the KM184
wants to pick up the surrounding sound.

So, what if you use the KMS105 for guitar? Does that give you good
enough gain before feedback? Do you like what it does to the top end
or not?

So I'm looking now at mics like that Beyer M201. I prefer the sound of
a mic to a pickup so I'll be using it with my acoustic guitars as well.

It's a good mike. So is the Sennheiser 441 and the EV N/D 468. The
468 is the cheapest of the set, the 441 is probably the most neutral,
but all of them have great patterns.

I was thinking about getting the MackieSRM350 on recommendation from a
DJ.

You can do worse, and it doesn't weigh a lot.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Yeah my reasoning for moving away from pickups: I sometimes do a slap
technique when I fingerpick and strum. Pickups don't reproduce these
handtaps very accurately. Also, the sound you're getting is soley from
the strings vibrating and nothing from the guitar itself. Part of what
makes a guitar sound like a guitar is the guitar sound itself, the
sound of your nails on the strings, handtaps, ... all that that is
lost.






Scott Dorsey wrote:
wrote:
Could you please recommend a microphone for use in Weddings and
restaurants where noise levels are high? Not only the high noise but
the sound from the other band members. I need something that will
pick up mostly what I point it at and nothing else.

What are some good microphones with the following characteristics:

* High gain before feedback.
* Good rejection of sound outside the pattern.
* Good guitar sound.

I need something versatile for use with nylon and steel string guitars.
I may use it on other instruments in the future as well. When playing
restaurants and weddings I can get along fine with my pickup on my
steel string. However, with a nylon string you don't have this option.
What can do both well?

Actually, you can get a piezo pickup for the nylon string guitar. Check
out the units from Pick Up the World. They'll never sound all that great,
and they'll never sound like a mike, but they'll give you better gain before
feedback than you'll ever get with a mike.

I don't have a lot of money but I wouldn't mind splurging on something
that I see as an investment if I will be happy with it.

What have you been using that you aren't happy with? How are you placing
your monitors?
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Yeah my reasoning for moving away from pickups: I sometimes do a slap
technique when I fingerpick and strum. Pickups don't reproduce these
handtaps very accurately. Also, the sound you're getting is soley from
the strings vibrating and nothing from the guitar itself. Part of what
makes a guitar sound like a guitar is the guitar sound itself, the
sound of your nails on the strings, handtaps, ... all that that is
lost.






Scott Dorsey wrote:
wrote:
Could you please recommend a microphone for use in Weddings and
restaurants where noise levels are high? Not only the high noise but
the sound from the other band members. I need something that will
pick up mostly what I point it at and nothing else.

What are some good microphones with the following characteristics:

* High gain before feedback.
* Good rejection of sound outside the pattern.
* Good guitar sound.

I need something versatile for use with nylon and steel string guitars.
I may use it on other instruments in the future as well. When playing
restaurants and weddings I can get along fine with my pickup on my
steel string. However, with a nylon string you don't have this option.
What can do both well?

Actually, you can get a piezo pickup for the nylon string guitar. Check
out the units from Pick Up the World. They'll never sound all that great,
and they'll never sound like a mike, but they'll give you better gain before
feedback than you'll ever get with a mike.

I don't have a lot of money but I wouldn't mind splurging on something
that I see as an investment if I will be happy with it.

What have you been using that you aren't happy with? How are you placing
your monitors?
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Beyer m201
Sennheiser 441
EV N/D 468.

All 3 of those sound like the right mic for what I need. I wish there
was a way to hear these mics on acoustic guitar. Is there a site on
the net that does this by chance?

Scott Dorsey wrote:
wrote:
I just had one Roland 100W amp faced out ten feet in front of me.

I was using a Neumann KMS 105 vocal mic for the vocals and a Neumann
KM184 for guitar. I am convinced now that the KM184 is not suited for
live micing, especially not weddings or a restaurant where the KM184
wants to pick up the surrounding sound.

So, what if you use the KMS105 for guitar? Does that give you good
enough gain before feedback? Do you like what it does to the top end
or not?

So I'm looking now at mics like that Beyer M201. I prefer the sound of
a mic to a pickup so I'll be using it with my acoustic guitars as well.

It's a good mike. So is the Sennheiser 441 and the EV N/D 468. The
468 is the cheapest of the set, the 441 is probably the most neutral,
but all of them have great patterns.

I was thinking about getting the MackieSRM350 on recommendation from a
DJ.

You can do worse, and it doesn't weigh a lot.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

wrote:
Beyer m201
Sennheiser 441
EV N/D 468.

All 3 of those sound like the right mic for what I need. I wish there
was a way to hear these mics on acoustic guitar. Is there a site on
the net that does this by chance?

That wouldn't tell you anything you really need to know. You need to
hear them on _your_ acoustic guitar in your situation. And that means
contacting a dealer and asking for them on loan.

The 441 is sort of a problem since the used price is a _lot_ lower than
the new price right now. So I would not recommend buying one new, but
looking for a used one.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Ok, I'm going to do some searching for such places today. If I don't
find a place where I can try these I think I'll just go with the Beyer.
Good price, good reputation, and seemingly nice sound from what I've
read. I read it sounds great on double bass and guitar is like a mini
double bass.

I like that all three have a hum bucking coil to avoid hum and
feedback.



Scott Dorsey wrote:
wrote:
Beyer m201
Sennheiser 441
EV N/D 468.

All 3 of those sound like the right mic for what I need. I wish there
was a way to hear these mics on acoustic guitar. Is there a site on
the net that does this by chance?

That wouldn't tell you anything you really need to know. You need to
hear them on _your_ acoustic guitar in your situation. And that means
contacting a dealer and asking for them on loan.

The 441 is sort of a problem since the used price is a _lot_ lower than
the new price right now. So I would not recommend buying one new, but
looking for a used one.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

wrote in message
oups.com...
Ok, I'm going to do some searching for such places today. If I don't
find a place where I can try these I think I'll just go with the Beyer.
Good price, good reputation, and seemingly nice sound from what I've
read. I read it sounds great on double bass and guitar is like a mini
double bass.

On acoustic guitar, plan on using some bass-cutting EQ. The Beyer M201 is a
hypercardioid, and they have more proximity effect than a cardioid would.
Oh, and you already know this, but keep it the hell away from the soundhole.
Over the 16th fret is probably the best spot.

Peace,
Paul

Yeah, at the restaurant I always turn down the bass a notch or two to
compensate for the carpeted floors and natural boominess of miking
guitar in proximity. I never mic the sound hole... I learned that
lesson early on in my first recordings. It makes you realize how
ingenious the design of our ears are. Too bad we can't make mics like
that yet.

I just talked to a guy from Swee****er and asked him if he had
experience with these mics. He said the Sennheiser 441 is good for
electric guitar cabs. but not acoustic guitar. I think I'll try the
Beyer. I'll just set it back a little farther and with the tight
pattern will probably get away with miking further back than I am now.


Another thing he recommended was a DriveRack PA by DBX. He said to
take a look at the Neumann 185 and 183 for tighter patterns. So I'm
going to compare these to the Beyer and see...

Thanks for the advice everyone.



Paul Stamler wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
Ok, I'm going to do some searching for such places today. If I don't
find a place where I can try these I think I'll just go with the Beyer.
Good price, good reputation, and seemingly nice sound from what I've
read. I read it sounds great on double bass and guitar is like a mini
double bass.

On acoustic guitar, plan on using some bass-cutting EQ. The Beyer M201 is a
hypercardioid, and they have more proximity effect than a cardioid would.
Oh, and you already know this, but keep it the hell away from the soundhole.
Over the 16th fret is probably the best spot.

Peace,
Paul

wrote:

I just talked to a guy from Swee****er and asked him if he had
experience with these mics. He said the Sennheiser 441 is good for
electric guitar cabs. but not acoustic guitar. I think I'll try the
Beyer. I'll just set it back a little farther and with the tight
pattern will probably get away with miking further back than I am now.

I think he's insane. The 441 is one of my favorites for acoustic guitar,
vibes, even jazz piano. It's one of the most neutral dynamics you can
buy.

Another thing he recommended was a DriveRack PA by DBX. He said to
take a look at the Neumann 185 and 183 for tighter patterns. So I'm
going to compare these to the Beyer and see...

So, how is the DriveRack supposed to help you? It gives you a few
notch filters, but that's not exactly an elegant solution.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I don't know, but he said it would detect the feedback and help
attenuate the problem frequency within .5 seconds. I suppose he meant
the notch filters you mentioned. I've never used one so I'm in the
dark on this. Do you have to set one of the notches to one of the
problem frequencies or does this thing automatically detect the problem
frequency?

Anyway, I think all I need is the right mic. The Neumann km185 is a
hyper-cardioid so that should help a lot in avoiding feedback... but I
like how the Beyer has the extra hum bucking coil feature and is also
hyper-cardioid. I'm just going to get the Beyer, it will be good tool
to have even if I move on to something else later like the Neumann
km185.

Thanks for all your help.

Scott Dorsey wrote:
wrote:

I just talked to a guy from Swee****er and asked him if he had
experience with these mics. He said the Sennheiser 441 is good for
electric guitar cabs. but not acoustic guitar. I think I'll try the
Beyer. I'll just set it back a little farther and with the tight
pattern will probably get away with miking further back than I am now.

I think he's insane. The 441 is one of my favorites for acoustic guitar,
vibes, even jazz piano. It's one of the most neutral dynamics you can
buy.

Another thing he recommended was a DriveRack PA by DBX. He said to
take a look at the Neumann 185 and 183 for tighter patterns. So I'm
going to compare these to the Beyer and see...

So, how is the DriveRack supposed to help you? It gives you a few
notch filters, but that's not exactly an elegant solution.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I don't know, but he said it would detect the feedback and help
attenuate the problem frequency within .5 seconds. I suppose he meant
the notch filters you mentioned. I've never used one so I'm in the
dark on this. Do you have to set one of the notches to one of the
problem frequencies or does this thing automatically detect the problem
frequency?

Anyway, I think all I need is the right mic. The Neumann km185 is a
hyper-cardioid so that should help a lot in avoiding feedback... but I
like how the Beyer has the extra hum bucking coil feature and is also
hyper-cardioid. I'm just going to get the Beyer, it will be good tool
to have even if I move on to something else later like the Neumann
km185.

Thanks for all your help.

Scott Dorsey wrote:
wrote:

I just talked to a guy from Swee****er and asked him if he had
experience with these mics. He said the Sennheiser 441 is good for
electric guitar cabs. but not acoustic guitar. I think I'll try the
Beyer. I'll just set it back a little farther and with the tight
pattern will probably get away with miking further back than I am now.

I think he's insane. The 441 is one of my favorites for acoustic guitar,
vibes, even jazz piano. It's one of the most neutral dynamics you can
buy.

Another thing he recommended was a DriveRack PA by DBX. He said to
take a look at the Neumann 185 and 183 for tighter patterns. So I'm
going to compare these to the Beyer and see...

So, how is the DriveRack supposed to help you? It gives you a few
notch filters, but that's not exactly an elegant solution.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

wrote:
I don't know, but he said it would detect the feedback and help
attenuate the problem frequency within .5 seconds. I suppose he meant
the notch filters you mentioned. I've never used one so I'm in the
dark on this. Do you have to set one of the notches to one of the
problem frequencies or does this thing automatically detect the problem
frequency?

It will detect a pure tone, then lock a notch filter onto it. The
Sabine Feedback Exterminator will do the same thing. You can make
the system feedback deliberately, then lock the notch filters into
place so it doesn't go around notching out flutes or anything (which
it will also readily do).

You can do the same thing by hand with a parametric equalizer. It
takes a little longer, but gets the same basic effect.

Funny thing is, though, the more notch filters you add, the worse
things sound. It doesn't fix the real acoustical problem, it just
hides it so it doesn't feedback. It's a good thing to do, AFTER
you've done everything else possible.

Anyway, I think all I need is the right mic. The Neumann km185 is a
hyper-cardioid so that should help a lot in avoiding feedback... but I
like how the Beyer has the extra hum bucking coil feature and is also
hyper-cardioid. I'm just going to get the Beyer, it will be good tool
to have even if I move on to something else later like the Neumann
km185.

Try it and see. And do be careful of the rear lobe, which can always
be a problem with hypercardioids. You may need slightly different
placement and angling than you are used to.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

You've gotten some great advice here, don't fall for stuff from a gear
salesman. His only priority is to move hardware from his workplace to
yours and money from your account to his, no matter where he works.

Folks seem really hung up on using condensor mics on stage. I'm not
convinced that it's the best idea around. The high output is
seductive, but the truth of the sound doesn't need all that.

stv

http://cdbaby.com/Culchies
http://cdbaby.com/Lopers

Thanks for the warning and tip on condensers on stage. Yeah, I'm not
going to get the DBX PA system, it seems superfluous to me. I want to
fix the cause of the problem rather than try to fix the problem after
it happens.

Swee****er doesn't carry the Beyer m201 so I'm looking at other places
now like FullCompass and WestexMedia that seem to carry it.


stv wrote:
You've gotten some great advice here, don't fall for stuff from a gear
salesman. His only priority is to move hardware from his workplace to
yours and money from your account to his, no matter where he works.

Folks seem really hung up on using condensor mics on stage. I'm not
convinced that it's the best idea around. The high output is
seductive, but the truth of the sound doesn't need all that.

stv

http://cdbaby.com/Culchies
http://cdbaby.com/Lopers

You've gotten some great advice here, don't fall for stuff from a gear
salesman. His only priority is to move hardware from his workplace to
yours and money from your account to his, no matter where he works.

Folks seem really hung up on using condensor mics on stage. I'm not
convinced that it's the best idea around. The high output is
seductive, but the truth of the sound doesn't need all that.

stv

http://cdbaby.com/Culchies
http://cdbaby.com/Lopers