Since I got my SACD (DVD) player, I have gotten 5 SACDs. I am not
impressed with the surround sound on any of them. Aside from the two
Living Stereo discs, I have the Dvorak 6th (LSO Live), Mozart Requiem
(DHM), and Rachmaninoff 2nd symphony (Channel Classics). None of these
show any rear channel ambience. Can anyone recommend some discs that DO
use the rear channels effectively for ambience? (I know that the Living
Stereos are only 3 channel or 2 channel).


---MIKE---
In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
(44=B0 15' N - Elevation 1580')

On 4 Dec 2005 17:52:32 GMT, (---MIKE---) wrote:

Since I got my SACD (DVD) player, I have gotten 5 SACDs. I am not
impressed with the surround sound on any of them. Aside from the two
Living Stereo discs, I have the Dvorak 6th (LSO Live), Mozart Requiem
(DHM), and Rachmaninoff 2nd symphony (Channel Classics). None of these
show any rear channel ambience. Can anyone recommend some discs that DO
use the rear channels effectively for ambience? (I know that the Living
Stereos are only 3 channel or 2 channel).

Hi Mike:
I looked at my SACD multi-channel (w/surround) classical discs
and found the following:

Very minimal surround sound, seems to be a mono mix from the front
channels at a much lower level:
Shippers, Prokofiev/Mussorgsky
Jarvi, Stravinsky
Jarvi, Stravinsky/Nielsen
Michael Murray, Dupre/Franck/Widor

Seems to be the same mono mix in the surrounds, but a higher level:
Waart, Saint-Saens/Mussorgsky
Jarvi, Dvorak/Martinu
Runnicles, Beethoven
Bernstein, Holst/Britten

Seems if classical discs have mainly ambience in the rear
channels. Believe most classical listeners want it this way as they
think it most duplicates a live concert, at least this was the
consensus of the discussions back in the 70s when Quad was introduced.

-=Bill Eckle=-

Vanity Web Page at:
http://www.wmeckle.com

"---MIKE---" wrote in message
...
Since I got my SACD (DVD) player, I have gotten 5 SACDs. I am not
impressed with the surround sound on any of them. Aside from the two
Living Stereo discs, I have the Dvorak 6th (LSO Live), Mozart Requiem
(DHM), and Rachmaninoff 2nd symphony (Channel Classics). None of these
show any rear channel ambience. Can anyone recommend some discs that DO
use the rear channels effectively for ambience? (I know that the Living
Stereos are only 3 channel or 2 channel).


Are you sure you have your rear speakers at the proper level. Classical
ambiance reproduction is very delicate, and there is no uniform level for
reproduction. In general you should turn up the rears until you can clearly
hear the ambience, then back off until it is just barely discernable. It
would help if manufacturers made center-side and front-rear volume sliders
on their remotes, but none do to my knowledge. You should hear it on the
Channel Classics, at least. E. Power Biggs' Bach SACD (Sony) has both
ambience and surroung (3 organs). Try a Telarc disk...they generally have
rear ambience...as do the recent Sony's featuring Hillary Hahn, etc. Also,
the Phillips recordings of Ivan Fischer and the Budapest Festival Orchestra.

On 4 Dec 2005 17:52:32 GMT, (---MIKE---) wrote:

Since I got my SACD (DVD) player, I have gotten 5 SACDs. I am not
impressed with the surround sound on any of them. Aside from the two
Living Stereo discs, I have the Dvorak 6th (LSO Live), Mozart Requiem
(DHM), and Rachmaninoff 2nd symphony (Channel Classics). None of these
show any rear channel ambience.

Really? I have those, and many more, and the ambience on them is
excellent. No obvious effects, of course.

Kal

On 5 Dec 2005 02:22:42 GMT, William Eckle wrote:

Seems if classical discs have mainly ambience in the rear
channels. Believe most classical listeners want it this way as they
think it most duplicates a live concert, at least this was the
consensus of the discussions back in the 70s when Quad was introduced.

Still true. ;-)

Kal

"Kalman Rubinson" wrote in message
...
On 5 Dec 2005 02:22:42 GMT, William Eckle wrote:

Seems if classical discs have mainly ambience in the rear
channels. Believe most classical listeners want it this way as they
think it most duplicates a live concert, at least this was the
consensus of the discussions back in the 70s when Quad was introduced.

Still true. ;-)

Do you mean to say that this set-up can even capture the folks sitting in
back of you kicking your seat?

On 6 Dec 2005 03:25:02 GMT, "Norman M. Schwartz"
wrote:

"Kalman Rubinson" wrote in message
...
On 5 Dec 2005 02:22:42 GMT, William Eckle wrote:

Seems if classical discs have mainly ambience in the rear
channels. Believe most classical listeners want it this way as they
think it most duplicates a live concert, at least this was the
consensus of the discussions back in the 70s when Quad was introduced.

Still true. ;-)

Do you mean to say that this set-up can even capture the folks sitting in
back of you kicking your seat?

If you are still fiddling with the cellophane from your gumdrop, you
deserve it.

Kal

I have more than 125 multi-channel SACDs, most classical, and have listened
to all but a few. The surrounds on most are very good to outstanding and
truly offer an experience significantly beyond two-channel. At worse a few
are benign. That is, they offer only marginal improvement over the
two-channel layer. I would say that the surround of the Rachmaninoff 2nd
symphony (Channel Classics) is not the very best but is a very audible
improvement over the two-channel layer.

I strongly recommend that you pick up the Philips SACD multi-channel set
up/test disc. Use this disc with a sound level meter. Among other tests
and music the disc has pink noise to help you insure that all your
channels are at the *same* level at the listening position. (Make sure
that all speakers are equidistant from the listening position). Let the
individual SACD recording determine the relative sound level that comes
from the surround channels. I am confident that you will find almost all
surrounds to be very good or better.

Proper set up is very important.

Robert C. Lang

"Kalman Rubinson" wrote in message
...
On 6 Dec 2005 03:25:02 GMT, "Norman M. Schwartz"
wrote:

"Kalman Rubinson" wrote in message
...
On 5 Dec 2005 02:22:42 GMT, William Eckle wrote:

Seems if classical discs have mainly ambience in the rear
channels. Believe most classical listeners want it this way as they
think it most duplicates a live concert, at least this was the
consensus of the discussions back in the 70s when Quad was introduced.

Still true. ;-)

Do you mean to say that this set-up can even capture the folks sitting in
back of you kicking your seat?

If you are still fiddling with the cellophane from your gumdrop, you
deserve it.

All right, one candy wrapper, but this guy has been kicking the back of my
chair all night long. I'm going to get up, turn around, and kick him right
where it hurts (me ?), the most, right in the grille cloth.

As a rough measure I conducted sound pressure level checks with my Radio
Shack meter ('C" weighted) using the Telarc Jarvi "The Rite of Spring" as
a source disc.

With the front speakers shut down and only the rears playing I measured
spl upwards of 85db peaks from the listening position. During "roughly"
the same passages with only the fronts playing I was measuring peaks of
about 97db. So, there was about a 12 db difference between the front and
the rears. (I did not take measurements with all speakers on).

Keep in mind these are rough measurement taken once very quickly for the
rears and then seperately for the fronts.

Robert C. Lang

On 4 Dec 2005 17:52:32 GMT, (---MIKE---) wrote:

I have the Dvorak 6th (LSO Live)

Try a BIS cd. LSO Live were recorded in London's Barbican - the
acoustics there are dead, though not as bad as the Royal Festival
Hall.

Try a BIS cd.

How is the new Bis SACD of the Beethoven symphonies 4 & 5 with Vanska?

---MIKE---
In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
(44=B0 15' N - Elevation 1580')

Go to SA-CD.net to find some opinions on the Bis label Beethoven 4 & 5.
Try the following link to see if it takes you there.

http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/2746

Robrty C. Lang

On 2005-12-04 12:52:32 -0500, (---MIKE---) said:

Since I got my SACD (DVD) player, I have gotten 5 SACDs. I am not
impressed with the surround sound on any of them. Aside from the two
Living Stereo discs, I have the Dvorak 6th (LSO Live), Mozart Requiem
(DHM), and Rachmaninoff 2nd symphony (Channel Classics). None of these
show any rear channel ambience. Can anyone recommend some discs that DO
use the rear channels effectively for ambience? (I know that the Living
Stereos are only 3 channel or 2 channel).


---MIKE---
In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
(44° 15' N - Elevation 1580')

Stay away from the Dark Side of the Moon SACD. Norah Jones' albums on
SACD sound quite good, as do Patricia Barber, if you're into her.
Mobile Fidelity's jazz albums are very decent, too.

Hope that helps.

Michael

Michael wrote:
On 2005-12-04 12:52:32 -0500, (---MIKE---) said:

Since I got my SACD (DVD) player, I have gotten 5 SACDs. I am not
impressed with the surround sound on any of them. Aside from the two
Living Stereo discs, I have the Dvorak 6th (LSO Live), Mozart Requiem
(DHM), and Rachmaninoff 2nd symphony (Channel Classics). None of these
show any rear channel ambience. Can anyone recommend some discs that DO
use the rear channels effectively for ambience? (I know that the Living
Stereos are only 3 channel or 2 channel).


---MIKE---

In the White Mountains of New Hampshire

(44=B0 15' N - Elevation 1580')


Stay away from the Dark Side of the Moon SACD. Norah Jones' albums on
SACD sound quite good, as do Patricia Barber, if you're into her.
Mobile Fidelity's jazz albums are very decent, too.

Hope that helps.

Michael

Why stay away from Dark side of the Moon SACD?

Michael wrote:
Michael wrote:
On 2005-12-04 12:52:32 -0500, (---MIKE---) said:

Since I got my SACD (DVD) player, I have gotten 5 SACDs. I am not
impressed with the surround sound on any of them. Aside from the two
Living Stereo discs, I have the Dvorak 6th (LSO Live), Mozart Requiem
(DHM), and Rachmaninoff 2nd symphony (Channel Classics). None of these
show any rear channel ambience. Can anyone recommend some discs that DO
use the rear channels effectively for ambience? (I know that the Living
Stereos are only 3 channel or 2 channel).


---MIKE---

In the White Mountains of New Hampshire

(44=B0 15' N - Elevation 1580')


Stay away from the Dark Side of the Moon SACD. Norah Jones' albums on
SACD sound quite good, as do Patricia Barber, if you're into her.
Mobile Fidelity's jazz albums are very decent, too.

Hope that helps.

Michael

Why stay away from Dark side of the Moon SACD?

I guess it's not 'surroundy' enough. I've seen some quadrophonic
fans espouse the same opinion. THey prefer the more aggressive
Alan Parsons surround mix from the quad days.

--
-S
"The most appealing intuitive argument for atheism is the mindblowing stupidity of religious
fundamentalists." -- Ginger Yellow

"Steven Sullivan" wrote in message
...
Michael wrote:
Michael wrote:
On 2005-12-04 12:52:32 -0500, (---MIKE---) said:

Since I got my SACD (DVD) player, I have gotten 5 SACDs. I am not
impressed with the surround sound on any of them. Aside from the two
Living Stereo discs, I have the Dvorak 6th (LSO Live), Mozart Requiem
(DHM), and Rachmaninoff 2nd symphony (Channel Classics). None of
these
show any rear channel ambience. Can anyone recommend some discs that
DO
use the rear channels effectively for ambience? (I know that the
Living
Stereos are only 3 channel or 2 channel).


---MIKE---

In the White Mountains of New Hampshire

(44=B0 15' N - Elevation 1580')


Stay away from the Dark Side of the Moon SACD. Norah Jones' albums on
SACD sound quite good, as do Patricia Barber, if you're into her.
Mobile Fidelity's jazz albums are very decent, too.

Hope that helps.

Michael

Why stay away from Dark side of the Moon SACD?

I guess it's not 'surroundy' enough. I've seen some quadrophonic
fans espouse the same opinion. THey prefer the more aggressive
Alan Parsons surround mix from the quad days.


Speaking of surround, I played Sheryl Crow's "The Globe Sessions" SACD for
the second time yesterday (I had bought it some time ago and lost track of
it). Excellent pop, studio surround sound...IMO should be a template for
other producers to follow. Some but not excessive studio ambiance.
Tasteful placement of instruments to the sides as well as front for accent,
all in service to the arrangement of the music (in other words, not
gimmicky). The surround takes the singing/songwriting/arrangement on this
already excellent album to yet another level.

BTW, for those intrested the Surround Sound 2005 Show (industry trade show)
just wrapped this week in California, so we should be hearing very shortly
which multichannel efforts have won this years awards.

Michael wrote in
:

Why stay away from Dark side of the Moon SACD?

I didn't like it much either. Frankly it sounds about the same as my CD of
the same album.

My guess is that they didn't really take advantage of the opportunity to
master it a little better.

I'm listening to White Trash Beautiful right now (Everlast). Very nice,
for pop. Vocals are surprisingly clean. There are some effects, but it's
not heavily EQ'ed or having that overly bassy quality that pop male
volalists tend to get from undercompensated cardioid mics. I suppose the
only weak point is they lyrics are not stunning.

--
stealthaxe

On 24 Dec 2005 17:13:53 GMT, (---MIKE---)
wrote:

The original question was never completely answered. I am looking for
classical SACDs (preferably large orchestral ones) that show an obvious
rear channel ambience. I have noticed this on some movie DVDs but so
far not on SACDs. I want to know that surround sound is doing
something.

What do you mean by 'obvious?' Most, if not all, of the classical
SACDs in my collection have a noticeable rear channel ambience
content. Some that come immediately to mind are the Biber Missa on
Kleos and the Music for Brass and Organ on Sonoma. Also, the
Harnoncourt Messiah/Verdi Requiem/Mozart Requiem on DHM.

Kal

---MIKE--- wrote:
The original question was never completely answered. I am looking for
classical SACDs (preferably large orchestral ones) that show an obvious
rear channel ambience. I have noticed this on some movie DVDs but so
far not on SACDs. I want to know that surround sound is doing
something.

what constitutes an 'obvious' rear channel ambience?

If you mean, a sense of space absent from the two-channel,
the Kleiber 'Beethoven 5/7' SACD/DVD-A on DG fits the bill.

--
-S
"The most appealing intuitive argument for atheism is the mindblowing stupidity of religious
fundamentalists." -- Ginger Yellow

ssully wrote:

what constitutes an 'obvious' rear
channel ambience?

If you mean, a sense of space absent
from the two-channel, the Kleiber
'Beethoven 5/7' SACD/DVD-A on DG
fits the bill.

Yes, I do mean a sense of space but how is this possible on that
Kleiber/Beethoven disc. Wasn't this originally a two channel recording?

---MIKE---
In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
(44=B0 15' N - Elevation 1580')

On 27 Dec 2005 17:20:34 GMT, (---MIKE---)
wrote:

ssully wrote:

what constitutes an 'obvious' rear
channel ambience?

If you mean, a sense of space absent
from the two-channel, the Kleiber
'Beethoven 5/7' SACD/DVD-A on DG
fits the bill.

Yes, I do mean a sense of space but how is this possible on that
Kleiber/Beethoven disc. Wasn't this originally a two channel recording?

Many MCH SACD/DVD-A reissues came from recordings originally released
in stereo but for which the session tapes have many more than 2
channels. These are 'easily' remixed and remastered into
multichannel. How successful that turns out to be depends on what the
engineers have to work with and how good they are at it.

I don't think that the Kleiber/Beethoven is any where near an
outstanding MCH release but it is, to my ears, the best-sounding
release of those performances.

Kal