http://www.wired.com/news/technology...,68891,00.html

According to the RIAA, vinyl's percentage of overall sales doubled in
2004, grossing $110 million over 2000's $72 million. This growth came
at a time when overall music sales dropped from $14.4 billion to $12.2
billion.

Vinyl has long been the go-to format for audiophiles. Often described
as having a warmer sound than CDs, the quality of vinyl that people
often try to put their finger on is its ability to capture the feeling
of a live performance. Vinyl isn't exactly more 'clear' -- the
frequent, but often avoidable, hisses and pops are actually what turn
many people off from records. The appeal is that the recording is
alive. Through the thin film of static, it actually feels like the
instruments are in the room with you. The record also grows with you,
degrading slightly -- but charmingly -- after each listen.

"There's something emotionally connected to vinyl," said Heather Marie,
a local musician who works at the San Francisco branch of Amoeba Music,
the country's largest independent record store. "The experience, the
memory, holding it and looking at the art work. It's a visual and
timeless feeling."

wrote:
http://www.wired.com/news/technology...,68891,00.html

According to the RIAA, vinyl's percentage of overall sales doubled in
2004, grossing $110 million over 2000's $72 million. This growth came
at a time when overall music sales dropped from $14.4 billion to $12.2
billion.

Well, I'll be. This is a bit confusing--the entire surge took place
between 2003 and 2004. Prior to that, vinyl's market share hovered
between 0.5% and 0.7% for at least a decade. (The 2004 figure was
0.9%.) Whether this is a trend or not remains to be seen.

In case anybody's wondering about the discrepancies, the figures I was
citing earlier were shipments from RIAA members, who comprise about 90%
of the industry, but a lesser share of the vinyl market. The figures
cited in the article above are from RIAA's annual consumer survey,
which asks about 200 people each month what they've bought. Such
surveys have margins of error, and the margin is higher for really
small market shares. We'll have to wait and see the 2005 figures to be
sure that last year's wasn't just a fluke. Interestingly, the consumer
survey showed a similar spike in SACD's market share, despite a sharp
drop in shipments.

bob

"bob" wrote in message
...
wrote:
http://www.wired.com/news/technology...,68891,00.html

According to the RIAA, vinyl's percentage of overall sales doubled in
2004, grossing $110 million over 2000's $72 million. This growth came
at a time when overall music sales dropped from $14.4 billion to $12.2
billion.

Well, I'll be. This is a bit confusing--the entire surge took place
between 2003 and 2004. Prior to that, vinyl's market share hovered
between 0.5% and 0.7% for at least a decade. (The 2004 figure was
0.9%.) Whether this is a trend or not remains to be seen.

In case anybody's wondering about the discrepancies, the figures I was
citing earlier were shipments from RIAA members, who comprise about 90%
of the industry, but a lesser share of the vinyl market. The figures
cited in the article above are from RIAA's annual consumer survey,
which asks about 200 people each month what they've bought. Such
surveys have margins of error, and the margin is higher for really
small market shares. We'll have to wait and see the 2005 figures to be
sure that last year's wasn't just a fluke. Interestingly, the consumer
survey showed a similar spike in SACD's market share, despite a sharp
drop in shipments.

It's what folks have been saying to you, Bob. There is a healthy vinyl
market. There is even a fairly healthy SACD/DVD-A market if you include
imports, small labels, and the fact that mostly the sales are being done
over the interenet.

Harry Lavo wrote:

It's what folks have been saying to you, Bob. There is a healthy vinyl
market.

Based on one year's data from one survey, after a decade of bleak news?
I'll be generous and say it's too soon to tell. But I know that you
know enough statistics to realize that a one-year jump like this could
well be the result of sampling error. The fact that the other data we
have for 2004 shows a continued decline makes this more likely.

Also, a rise in market share for vinyl does not necessarily mean that
vinyl is "making a comeback." If vinyl sales are stagnating and CD
sales are falling, vinyl's market share goes up. But vinyl is still
stagnating.

There is even a fairly healthy SACD/DVD-A market if you include
imports, small labels, and the fact that mostly the sales are being done
over the interenet.

Just for the record, the RIAA shipments data does include shipments to
Internet stores. What it doesn't include are shipments from companies
(like small labels and some imports) that don't belong to RIAA. So
you're half-right here.

bob

"bob" wrote in message
...
Harry Lavo wrote:

It's what folks have been saying to you, Bob. There is a healthy vinyl
market.

Based on one year's data from one survey, after a decade of bleak news?
I'll be generous and say it's too soon to tell. But I know that you
know enough statistics to realize that a one-year jump like this could
well be the result of sampling error. The fact that the other data we
have for 2004 shows a continued decline makes this more likely.


Did I say it was proof? I said it was evidence and it shouldn't shock you,
since people have been telling you that "somethings happening here".

Also, a rise in market share for vinyl does not necessarily mean that
vinyl is "making a comeback." If vinyl sales are stagnating and CD
sales are falling, vinyl's market share goes up. But vinyl is still
stagnating.


Yeah, but that's among the more established players. It doesn't reflect
whats happening on top of that with the small players.

There is even a fairly healthy SACD/DVD-A market if you include
imports, small labels, and the fact that mostly the sales are being done
over the interenet.

Just for the record, the RIAA shipments data does include shipments to
Internet stores. What it doesn't include are shipments from companies
(like small labels and some imports) that don't belong to RIAA. So
you're half-right here.

And those small labels are a huge part of the vinyl, SACD, and DVD-A and do
almost all of their sales via the internet.

Harry Lavo wrote:
"bob" wrote in message
...
Harry Lavo wrote:

It's what folks have been saying to you, Bob. There is a healthy vinyl
market.

Based on one year's data from one survey, after a decade of bleak news?
I'll be generous and say it's too soon to tell. But I know that you
know enough statistics to realize that a one-year jump like this could
well be the result of sampling error. The fact that the other data we
have for 2004 shows a continued decline makes this more likely.


Did I say it was proof? I said it was evidence and it shouldn't shock you,
since people have been telling you that "somethings happening here".

What has always shocked me is the willingness of people to tell me
things before they have any evidence at all.

Also, a rise in market share for vinyl does not necessarily mean that
vinyl is "making a comeback." If vinyl sales are stagnating and CD
sales are falling, vinyl's market share goes up. But vinyl is still
stagnating.


Yeah, but that's among the more established players. It doesn't reflect
whats happening on top of that with the small players.

This is what I meant by "the willingness of people to tell me things
before they have any evidence at all."

There is even a fairly healthy SACD/DVD-A market if you include
imports, small labels, and the fact that mostly the sales are being done
over the interenet.

Just for the record, the RIAA shipments data does include shipments to
Internet stores. What it doesn't include are shipments from companies
(like small labels and some imports) that don't belong to RIAA. So
you're half-right here.

And those small labels are a huge part of the vinyl, SACD, and DVD-A and do
almost all of their sales via the internet.

Huge? How huge? I did a quick scan of the new vinyl offerings on one of
the audiophile music sites, and I'd say that RIAA-member labels account
for more than half and maybe as much as two-thirds of the market. I
haven't looked at hi-rez digital, but my hunch would be that
major-label reissues like Dylan and the Stones dominate that market as
well. So while it's certainly true that RIAA shipment figures
understate sales for those media, relative to CDs, they don't
understate them by more than half. And if you double the RIAA figures
for those media, the results are still pathetic.

bob

bob wrote:
Harry Lavo wrote:
"bob" wrote in message
...
Harry Lavo wrote:

It's what folks have been saying to you, Bob. There is a healthy vinyl
market.

Based on one year's data from one survey, after a decade of bleak news?
I'll be generous and say it's too soon to tell. But I know that you
know enough statistics to realize that a one-year jump like this could
well be the result of sampling error. The fact that the other data we
have for 2004 shows a continued decline makes this more likely.


Did I say it was proof? I said it was evidence and it shouldn't shock you,
since people have been telling you that "somethings happening here".

What has always shocked me is the willingness of people to tell me
things before they have any evidence at all.

You must spend most of your waking hours in shock.


Also, a rise in market share for vinyl does not necessarily mean that
vinyl is "making a comeback." If vinyl sales are stagnating and CD
sales are falling, vinyl's market share goes up. But vinyl is still
stagnating.


Yeah, but that's among the more established players. It doesn't reflect
whats happening on top of that with the small players.

This is what I meant by "the willingness of people to tell me things
before they have any evidence at all."

While you might not put much weight in the evidence the claims were
based on evidence. Many people in this world do come up with beliefs
totally out of the blue this is simply not the case for the health of
audiophile LP market. Anyone who actually follows the market would be
quite aware of the vast increase in audiophile LP reisues and the
substantial amount of new gear hitting the market. That evidence may
not be catagorized and carefully measured but it is crystal clear for
those of us who are actually out there buying this stuff. The well
being of this market really doesn't hinge on the agreement of the local
RAHE nay-sayers. it seems to me though that if one were genuinely
interested in the state of audiophile LP market one would do much
better than making definitive claims based on a comparison between
"data" from Audio and "data" from Stereophile. The nay sayes have been
predicting the demise of new LP issues and new gear for quite some
time now. The market is healthy and seems to be growing. Doen't matter
if you agree with that or like that. What matters to me is that I have
more options than ever before when it comes to purchasing quality LPs
and quality gear. I know this because I am actually someone out there
buying this stuff.


There is even a fairly healthy SACD/DVD-A market if you include
imports, small labels, and the fact that mostly the sales are being done
over the interenet.

Just for the record, the RIAA shipments data does include shipments to
Internet stores. What it doesn't include are shipments from companies
(like small labels and some imports) that don't belong to RIAA. So
you're half-right here.

And those small labels are a huge part of the vinyl, SACD, and DVD-A and do
almost all of their sales via the internet.

Huge? How huge?

For the audiophile? extremely huge.

I did a quick scan of the new vinyl offerings on one of
the audiophile music sites, and I'd say that RIAA-member labels account
for more than half and maybe as much as two-thirds of the market.

Perhaps you are confsing the major label titles with the small label
companies reissuing them.

I
haven't looked at hi-rez digital, but my hunch would be that
major-label reissues like Dylan and the Stones dominate that market as
well.

Again, if you were to investigate further you would find out tha many
of those titles are in fact being reissued by small audiophile labels.

So while it's certainly true that RIAA shipment figures
understate sales for those media, relative to CDs, they don't
understate them by more than half.

There you go again with those definitive claims. It just gets funnier
each time you goof up like this.

And if you double the RIAA figures
for those media, the results are still pathetic.

Pathetic? Like the sales figures of Classical music compared to pop?
Like the sales of traditional jazz compared to rap? Well, if you
measure your tastes by mass popularity... To me the only issue is the
well being of the market not the volume of sales compared to a mass
market product. I have no problem with audiophile LP market being a
cottage industry so long as it stays healthy and healthy it is.

Scott

"bob" wrote in message
...
Harry Lavo wrote:
"bob" wrote in message
...
Harry Lavo wrote:

It's what folks have been saying to you, Bob. There is a healthy
vinyl
market.

Based on one year's data from one survey, after a decade of bleak news?
I'll be generous and say it's too soon to tell. But I know that you
know enough statistics to realize that a one-year jump like this could
well be the result of sampling error. The fact that the other data we
have for 2004 shows a continued decline makes this more likely.


Did I say it was proof? I said it was evidence and it shouldn't shock
you,
since people have been telling you that "somethings happening here".

What has always shocked me is the willingness of people to tell me
things before they have any evidence at all.

See my comments below


Also, a rise in market share for vinyl does not necessarily mean that
vinyl is "making a comeback." If vinyl sales are stagnating and CD
sales are falling, vinyl's market share goes up. But vinyl is still
stagnating.


Yeah, but that's among the more established players. It doesn't reflect
whats happening on top of that with the small players.

This is what I meant by "the willingness of people to tell me things
before they have any evidence at all."


Your responses reinforce two impressions, Bob:

1) You are extrememely uncomfortable with "soft" information.
2) You tend not to trust people and instead consider them not very bright
and ill-informed, even if they operate in a section of the hobby not
important to you.

There is even a fairly healthy SACD/DVD-A market if you include
imports, small labels, and the fact that mostly the sales are being
done
over the interenet.

Just for the record, the RIAA shipments data does include shipments to
Internet stores. What it doesn't include are shipments from companies
(like small labels and some imports) that don't belong to RIAA. So
you're half-right here.

And those small labels are a huge part of the vinyl, SACD, and DVD-A and
do
almost all of their sales via the internet.

Huge? How huge? I did a quick scan of the new vinyl offerings on one of
the audiophile music sites, and I'd say that RIAA-member labels account
for more than half and maybe as much as two-thirds of the market. I
haven't looked at hi-rez digital, but my hunch would be that
major-label reissues like Dylan and the Stones dominate that market as
well. So while it's certainly true that RIAA shipment figures
understate sales for those media, relative to CDs, they don't
understate them by more than half. And if you double the RIAA figures
for those media, the results are still pathetic.

Well, you "hunch" is wrong IMO. The hi-rez market is dominated by small
classical labels, many of them European. Moreover, there is a very active
Japanese market in jazz and pop/rock. Furthermore, the Dylan and Stones
releases have sold out their runs, and currently are not in print. This
actually places a "drag" on year-to-year comparisons. SACD's just topped
3500 in the SACDinfo database. One person calculated that there have been
110 releases in just the last month alone. In vinyl, you have to
differentiate between the "source label" (which is probably mainstream) and
the "reissuing label" (which may well be small and niche)..

Harry Lavo wrote:

Your responses reinforce two impressions, Bob:

1) You are extrememely uncomfortable with "soft" information.

No, just soft information that runs counter to hard information.

2) You tend not to trust people and instead consider them not very bright
and ill-informed, even if they operate in a section of the hobby not
important to you.

I tend not to trust people whose "soft information" confirms their
preferences and beliefs 100% of the time, even when contradicted by
hard information.

There is even a fairly healthy SACD/DVD-A market if you include
imports, small labels, and the fact that mostly the sales are being
done
over the interenet.

Just for the record, the RIAA shipments data does include shipments to
Internet stores. What it doesn't include are shipments from companies
(like small labels and some imports) that don't belong to RIAA. So
you're half-right here.

And those small labels are a huge part of the vinyl, SACD, and DVD-A and
do
almost all of their sales via the internet.

Huge? How huge? I did a quick scan of the new vinyl offerings on one of
the audiophile music sites, and I'd say that RIAA-member labels account
for more than half and maybe as much as two-thirds of the market. I
haven't looked at hi-rez digital, but my hunch would be that
major-label reissues like Dylan and the Stones dominate that market as
well. So while it's certainly true that RIAA shipment figures
understate sales for those media, relative to CDs, they don't
understate them by more than half. And if you double the RIAA figures
for those media, the results are still pathetic.

Well, you "hunch" is wrong IMO.

Or maybe my hunch is just different from yours.

The hi-rez market is dominated by small
classical labels, many of them European. Moreover, there is a very active
Japanese market in jazz and pop/rock. Furthermore, the Dylan and Stones
releases have sold out their runs, and currently are not in print. This
actually places a "drag" on year-to-year comparisons.

No, it just helps to explain why the RIAA shipments are dropping like a
stone.

SACD's just topped
3500 in the SACDinfo database. One person calculated that there have been
110 releases in just the last month alone.

And how many are being sold? You haven't any idea. See, the problem
isn't that I don't trust soft information, it's that you don't have any
information at all.

In vinyl, you have to
differentiate between the "source label" (which is probably mainstream) and
the "reissuing label" (which may well be small and niche)..

I'm fairly confident that I can read a label, Harry. And I'm fairly
confident that when the label says "Columbia/Legacy," the reissuing
label really is "Columbia/Legacy," which is among the (hundreds of)
labels counted by the RIAA. As were most of the labels on the new vinyl
best-seller list I saw on one of the audiophile music sites.

bob

The latest issue of Stereophile reviewed the Continuum Audio Labs
turntable, tonearm, and stand - cost - turntable and arm - $65,000, -
stand - $24,999. They say it "sounded" pretty good! Is any LP worth
that much?

---MIKE---
In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
(44=B0 15' N - Elevation 1580')

---MIKE--- wrote:
The latest issue of Stereophile reviewed the Continuum Audio Labs
turntable, tonearm, and stand - cost - turntable and arm - $65,000, -
stand - $24,999. They say it "sounded" pretty good! Is any LP worth
that much?

The most valuable LP I know of is Bob Dylan Freewheelin stereo version
with deleted tracks. Goes for about 25,000.00 So I'd say no. no LP is
worth as much as that table sells for. Why do you ask?

Scott

bob wrote:

SACD's just topped
3500 in the SACDinfo database. One person calculated that there have been
110 releases in just the last month alone.

And how many are being sold? You haven't any idea. See, the problem
isn't that I don't trust soft information, it's that you don't have any
information at all.

I doubt all of these releases 110 are released in multiple regions
-- lots of SACDs are released
in Japan only, for example. That is not a sign of a burgeoning market.

Any one know how many of the 110 were released in the States?

--
-S
"The most appealing intuitive argument for atheism is the mindblowing stupidity of religious
fundamentalists." -- Ginger Yellow

"Steven Sullivan" wrote in message
...
bob wrote:

SACD's just topped
3500 in the SACDinfo database. One person calculated that there have
been
110 releases in just the last month alone.

And how many are being sold? You haven't any idea. See, the problem
isn't that I don't trust soft information, it's that you don't have any
information at all.

I doubt all of these releases 110 are released in multiple regions
-- lots of SACDs are released
in Japan only, for example. That is not a sign of a burgeoning market.

Any one know how many of the 110 were released in the States?


Many affluent audiophiles do a fair amount of importing directly from Japan
and Hong Kong, as well as from Europe. Moreover, sometimes the Japanese
releases find their way into US production.