The Manger drivers look to be one of the more interesting drivers available
and there are both kits and finished speakers available using their bending
wave drivers.

The Zerobox 103 seems like a natural for review in SP.

Is there a chance this might happen and what has kept them out of the
magazine until now?

Are there any speakers using the bending wave driver that have been reviewed
by SP?

In the unlikely event that you have not previously seen the 103 here's a
link: http://www.manger-msw.com/en/produkte/index.html

wrote in message
.net
The Manger drivers look to be one of the more interesting
drivers available and there are both kits and finished
speakers available using their bending wave drivers.

The Zerobox 103 seems like a natural for review in SP.

Is there a chance this might happen and what has kept
them out of the magazine until now?

Are there any speakers using the bending wave driver that
have been reviewed by SP?

In the unlikely event that you have not previously seen
the 103 here's a link:
http://www.manger-msw.com/en/produkte/index.html

or

http://www.manger-msw.com/en/produkte/index.html

Compare to:

http://www.nxtsound.com/index.php?id=335&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=329&tx_ttnews[backPid]=418&cHash=316eecfe9f

wrote in message
.net...
The Manger drivers look to be one of the more interesting drivers
available and there are both kits and finished speakers available using
their bending wave drivers.

The Zerobox 103 seems like a natural for review in SP.


Stereophile has already reviewed a speaker with the Manger driver. IIRC, it
was somewhat flawed given its high price.


Cheers,

Margaret

"Margaret von B." wrote in message
...

wrote in message
.net...
The Manger drivers look to be one of the more interesting drivers
available and there are both kits and finished speakers available using
their bending wave drivers.

The Zerobox 103 seems like a natural for review in SP.


Stereophile has already reviewed a speaker with the Manger driver. IIRC,
it was somewhat flawed given its high price.


Might it have been a speaker priced around $70,000.00? I beleive that would
have been from a company called Overkill Audio (how appropriate) called the
Encore.
For me, any spekaer in that range has at least one flaw.

wrote in message
nk.net...

"Margaret von B." wrote in message
...

wrote in message
.net...
The Manger drivers look to be one of the more interesting drivers
available and there are both kits and finished speakers available using
their bending wave drivers.

The Zerobox 103 seems like a natural for review in SP.


Stereophile has already reviewed a speaker with the Manger driver. IIRC,
it was somewhat flawed given its high price.


Might it have been a speaker priced around $70,000.00? I beleive that
would have been from a company called Overkill Audio (how appropriate)
called the Encore.
For me, any spekaer in that range has at least one flaw.


It is an older review. I'm pretty sure it was Audio Physic but their model
names are too screwy to remember. Prior to the review, I heard it side by
side with Avalon Radians and SF Extremas in a professionally designed room
with both Spectral and ARC systems. The Avalons and SF sounded superior in
every way at a fraction of the cost. I'm tempted to say those speakers cost
around $40K. But it wasn't a bad speaker on its own. Afterwards some AP rep
or something like that said that their speakers were underpowered even with
a Spectral DMA-180 that was putting out 400 WPC in the configuration used.
Either that was a lousy explanation or the speakers were extremely power
hungry.

Cheers,

Margaret

wrote in message
nk.net...

"Margaret von B." wrote in message
...

wrote in message
.net...
The Manger drivers look to be one of the more interesting drivers
available and there are both kits and finished speakers available using
their bending wave drivers.

The Zerobox 103 seems like a natural for review in SP.


Stereophile has already reviewed a speaker with the Manger driver. IIRC,
it was somewhat flawed given its high price.


Might it have been a speaker priced around $70,000.00? I beleive that
would have been from a company called Overkill Audio (how appropriate)
called the Encore.
For me, any spekaer in that range has at least one flaw.


Mikey,

This is the speaker I was talking about that was also reviewed by
Stereophile. I don't think SP online has it and I don't know what their
verdict was. The review that found it "flawed" was by Martin Colloms for
HFN&RR.

http://www.immediasound.com/Medea.html

Cheers,

Margaret

"Margaret von B." wrote in message
...

wrote in message
nk.net...

"Margaret von B." wrote in message
...

wrote in message
.net...
The Manger drivers look to be one of the more interesting drivers
available and there are both kits and finished speakers available using
their bending wave drivers.

The Zerobox 103 seems like a natural for review in SP.


Stereophile has already reviewed a speaker with the Manger driver. IIRC,
it was somewhat flawed given its high price.


Might it have been a speaker priced around $70,000.00? I beleive that
would have been from a company called Overkill Audio (how appropriate)
called the Encore.
For me, any spekaer in that range has at least one flaw.


Mikey,

This is the speaker I was talking about that was also reviewed by
Stereophile. I don't think SP online has it and I don't know what their
verdict was. The review that found it "flawed" was by Martin Colloms for
HFN&RR.

http://www.immediasound.com/Medea.html

The system pictured at the above link looks very similar to the big Zerobox
system designed by Manger, except the Manger has no powered subwoofer. I
think it very likely that there was a bad impementation of the xover and
drivers, since, if the measurements are to be believed the Manger driver is
very smooth and should provide excellent performance when properly utilized.

Either that or they just aren't nearly as good as they're alleged, which I
find a bit hard to believe since I've seen other reviews that praised it
very highly.

I'd like to see the Zerobox 103 reviewed with measurments as I think that
will tell a better story and the Zerobox is a helluva lot more affordable.

wrote:
The Manger drivers look to be one of the more interesting drivers available
and there are both kits and finished speakers available using their bending
wave drivers. The Zerobox 103 seems like a natural for review in SP.

I haven't been impressed with speakers using the Manger driver at
Shows,
mainly due to its chronic lack of sensitivity. Also, the only
commercial
design available in the US was an Audio Physic design that did not
impress
me sufficiently to make it worth devoting the resources for a review.
Martin
Colloms reviewed this speaker in HFN a few years back..

Are there any speakers using the bending wave driver that have been reviewed
by SP?

Not the Manger. But we did review the Ohm Walsh 5 in April 1987, which
uses a
different kind of bending-wave driver. Again, I was not very impressed
nor by
the more recent German Physics designs that use a similar driver to the
Walsh.
Again, it would seem the lack of sensitivity is too big a hurdle to
overcome.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

"John Atkinson" wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:
The Manger drivers look to be one of the more interesting drivers
available
and there are both kits and finished speakers available using their
bending
wave drivers. The Zerobox 103 seems like a natural for review in SP.

I haven't been impressed with speakers using the Manger driver at
Shows,
mainly due to its chronic lack of sensitivity. Also, the only
commercial
design available in the US was an Audio Physic design that did not
impress
me sufficiently to make it worth devoting the resources for a review.
Martin
Colloms reviewed this speaker in HFN a few years back..

Are there any speakers using the bending wave driver that have been
reviewed
by SP?

Not the Manger. But we did review the Ohm Walsh 5 in April 1987, which
uses a
different kind of bending-wave driver. Again, I was not very impressed
nor by
the more recent German Physics designs that use a similar driver to the
Walsh.
Again, it would seem the lack of sensitivity is too big a hurdle to
overcome.


Yeah but that's you, give them to Fremer and who knows what sort of
impression they might make on him. :-)

I'd like to see the measurements on the top of the line Ohm and the Zerobox,
that would tell me as much as the listening critiques.

Given some of the speakers that have gotten bad reviews that based on price,
one would expect to have done better, it couldn't hurt to do some more
affordable speakers and give another reviewer and the public a chance to
make up their own minds

"John Atkinson" wrote in message
oups.com...

I haven't been impressed with speakers using the Manger driver at Shows,
mainly due to its chronic lack of sensitivity.

http://www.manger-msw.com/en/produkte/index.html

Manger gives the sensitivity of their driver as 91 dB/watt. That would be
average or slightly above-average sensitivity, no?

On Thu, 8 Dec 2005 12:47:47 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

The Manger drivers look to be one of the more interesting
drivers available

Yes, and very appropriate to Christmas too. :-)

Arny Krueger wrote:
"John Atkinson" wrote in message
oups.com...

I haven't been impressed with speakers using the Manger driver at Shows,
mainly due to its chronic lack of sensitivity.

http://www.manger-msw.com/en/produkte/index.html

Manger gives the sensitivity of their driver as 91 dB/watt. That would be
average or slightly above-average sensitivity, no?

Today yes. But dismal.

From:

http://home.comcast.net/~wooferboy/Page_3.html


The JBL 2123J Project
The Klipschorn Midrange Horn

The Klipschorn midrange reproducer consists of two parts, a phenolic
diaphragm compression driver designated the K55 and the horn,
designated the K400. Both have been revised by Klipsch over the years.
Most noteworthy is the change in the horn from an aluminum casting
(K400) to a plastic molded version (K401). Yet, regardless of the horn
section or compression driver used, the midrange reproduction from this
combination is unacceptable. The K55/K400 suffers from a number of
problems including non-linearities in the response that result in
colorations and compression air overload distortion due to an
exceedingly small throat (0.625 in. diameter). At moderate sound
pressure levels in large rooms distress is evident. Complex musical
information rich in lower midrange content such as pipe organ, chorale
and symphonic works, lack detail and is distorted resulting in listener
fatigue.

Integrating a midrange horn into the Klipschorn folded bass unit
presents additional problems. For example, the folded bass horn has a
bandwidth of 35-400Hz and an advertised sensitivity of about 104dB/W/m.
To provide an adequate crossover attenuation response, a midrange horn
capable of linear, low distortion output to approximately 200Hz is
necessary. Given the 6kHz midrange-tweeter crossover frequency, the
resultant midrange band-pass spans nearly 6 octaves, a considerable
range and a significant challenge for a compression driver.
High Efficiency, Direct Radiator Midrange Transducers

When clear, low distortion midrange reproduction at high sound pressure
levels is required by the home enthusiast, it is our opinion that high
efficiency, direct radiators specifically designed for this particular
application are preferred. These drivers are capable of producing
midrange information with very low distortion and, when used in pairs,
have sensitivities comparable to the Klipschorn folded bass horn.

We have developed two direct radiator midrange systems that are capable
of providing effortless midrange reproduction to sound pressure levels
considered extreme. These systems are designed to replace the
Klipschorn K55/K400 (or K401) midrange horn. The high frequencies are
handled by the JBL 2404H Bi-Radial Horn tweeter.
The 2123J Project***
The Drivers

The first system is based on the JBL 2123J, a 16 Ohm, 10" high
efficiency midrange driver with an advertised sensitivity (based on a
signal swept from 500-2500Hz) of 101dB/W/m. The arrangement consists of
a pair of 2123Js mated to a single Klipschorn bass unit. The paired
arrangement, with each driver mounted in a sealed enclosure, will
achieve a theoretical sensitivity of 104dB/W/m. The data sheet for the
2123J is proved in the pull-down menu below.

"Bret Ludwig" wrote in message
oups.com...
Arny Krueger wrote:
"John Atkinson" wrote in message
oups.com...

I haven't been impressed with speakers using the Manger driver at
Shows,
mainly due to its chronic lack of sensitivity.

http://www.manger-msw.com/en/produkte/index.html

Manger gives the sensitivity of their driver as 91 dB/watt. That would be
average or slightly above-average sensitivity, no?

Today yes. But dismal.

Bret, your lond-winded post just goes to show that you are unclear about the
meaning of simple words like "average".

http://home.comcast.net/~wooferboy/Page_3.html

snip totally irrelevant info

The first system is based on the JBL 2123J, a 16 Ohm, 10" high
efficiency midrange driver with an advertised sensitivity (based on a
signal swept from 500-2500Hz) of 101dB/W/m.

It's unclear whether this is vendor spec (and therefore questionable) or
based on an actual test by a horn-speaker bigot (and therefore highly
questionable).

The arrangement consists of
a pair of 2123Js mated to a single Klipschorn bass unit. The paired
arrangement, with each driver mounted in a sealed enclosure, will
achieve a theoretical sensitivity of 104dB/W/m.

Key word - *theretical*. IOW, not actual by any reasonable stretch of the
imagination. Therefore its an extremely questionable number.

The data sheet for the
2123J is proved in the pull-down menu below.

Given that the average efficiency of a good-quality stage monitor is about
99 dB, one might wonder why anybody would find 101 dB to be worth bragging
about.

"Bret Ludwig" wrote in message
oups.com...
Arny Krueger wrote:
"John Atkinson" wrote in message
oups.com...

I haven't been impressed with speakers using the Manger driver at
Shows,
mainly due to its chronic lack of sensitivity.

http://www.manger-msw.com/en/produkte/index.html

Manger gives the sensitivity of their driver as 91 dB/watt. That would be
average or slightly above-average sensitivity, no?

Today yes. But dismal.

From:

http://home.comcast.net/~wooferboy/Page_3.html


The JBL 2123J Project
The Klipschorn Midrange Horn

snip

Brett, you don't seem to get the fact that most folks don't want a 10 inch
midrange or horn speakers in thier rooms.

There are direct radiating speakers that can produce loud enough sound that
don't take up nearly as much space as a horn system might and are most
definitely more appealing to the eye for most people.

The specs given for the Manger seem to indicate that it would be in good
company with most other conventional speakers. A review with measurements
of one of the systems designed by the people who make the driver is
something think would useful to many people. There is the possibliltiy that
this driver and a properly designed system that is affordable for the
average audiophile might just have some sonic character that people might
enjoy.

Having a decent set of measurements would go along way IMO to help
understand whether there is any real value to this driver even if it is
somewhat inefficient, which should not disqualifiy it from review in SP,
given that many other systems have been reviewed with rather low spl
ratings.

Lots of esoteric type systems have graced the pages of SP and this one I
believe, deserves to be among them. Certainly it qualifies on esoteric
grounds, l;ets get a look at how it sounds in what appears to be a
reasonably well thought out system.

On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:30:03 GMT, wrote:

Lots of esoteric type systems have graced the pages of SP and this one I
believe, deserves to be among them.

Suddenly you're a big Stereophile supporter?

Wow.

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:30:03 GMT, wrote:

Lots of esoteric type systems have graced the pages of SP and this one I
believe, deserves to be among them.

Suddenly you're a big Stereophile supporter?

Wow.

Not of their reviewers, just their measurements which they seem to do well.
I thought the fact that the Manger driver would be considered fairly cutting
edge would make it a candidate for SP to review. Perhaps they have a bas
against their products since they are also available in kit form. I have
seen a review of one of the kits using the manger dirver that was very
favorable, but it did not have the kind of measurments that would appear in
SP.

I don't know of anybody from Sound and Vision that posts here, but the same
request applies to them.

If the system is good, I would think SP readers would want to know about it,
since it is available as a finished system for around $4K, it seems to me
that it would be a natural.

wrote in message
nk.net...
:
: "dave weil" wrote in message
: ...
: On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:30:03 GMT, wrote:
:
: Lots of esoteric type systems have graced the pages of SP and this one I
: believe, deserves to be among them.
:
: Suddenly you're a big Stereophile supporter?
:
: Wow.
:
: Not of their reviewers, just their measurements which they seem to do well.
: I thought the fact that the Manger driver would be considered fairly cutting
: edge would make it a candidate for SP to review. Perhaps they have a bas
: against their products since they are also available in kit form. I have
: seen a review of one of the kits using the manger dirver that was very
: favorable, but it did not have the kind of measurments that would appear in
: SP.
:
: I don't know of anybody from Sound and Vision that posts here, but the same
: request applies to them.
:
: If the system is good, I would think SP readers would want to know about it,
: since it is available as a finished system for around $4K, it seems to me
: that it would be a natural.
:
.................................
So why don't you do the measurements yourself ?

get an ATB-Precision/USB at EUR 3980,00
http://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/...i/zeit_kut.htm

and you're all set.
we're sure your audio salesman period puts you in the position to
get some Manger based systems sent for evaluation :-)

cheers,
Rudy