In , Sander deWaal wrote :

Lionel said:

And a Jadis isn't crap. But it is overpriced. Never heard of Pegasus
Audio, though.

LOL, predictable retractation from our self-proclamed "high-end
connoiseur" since he has in front of him a guy who knows a lot more than
him on the subject.


I wouldn't dare to compare my listening experience with Marc's, at
least not in recent times.

Anyway I will try to discourage you to do that. IMHO it's wasting time to
engage "dick contests" like the one that this idiot tried to engage with
McKelvy.

I left (high end) consumer audio as a profession in 1998, and there is
a lot of new brands and types released since then.

There're 1000s of brands and local micro-manufacturers. Only moronic
braggarts like Marc Phillips can arrive in a discussion saying "that's all
crap".

Also, I'm not familiar with the level of technical knowledge that Marc
has.

How to know it ? This braggart mainly spent his RAO time in discussions
about pedophilia. :-(
Note that considering the level of his last intervention it's perhaps better
for him. :-)

--
"Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
But what's new around here?"

Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15

"Lionel" wrote in message
...
: In , Sander deWaal wrote :
:
: Lionel said:
:
: And a Jadis isn't crap. But it is overpriced. Never heard of Pegasus
: Audio, though.
:
: LOL, predictable retractation from our self-proclamed "high-end
: connoiseur" since he has in front of him a guy who knows a lot more than
: him on the subject.
:
:
: I wouldn't dare to compare my listening experience with Marc's, at
: least not in recent times.
:
: Anyway I will try to discourage you to do that. IMHO it's wasting time to
: engage "dick contests" like the one that this idiot tried to engage with
: McKelvy.
:
: I left (high end) consumer audio as a profession in 1998, and there is
: a lot of new brands and types released since then.
:
: There're 1000s of brands and local micro-manufacturers. Only moronic
: braggarts like Marc Phillips can arrive in a discussion saying "that's all
: crap".
:
: Also, I'm not familiar with the level of technical knowledge that Marc
: has.
:
: How to know it ? This braggart mainly spent his RAO time in discussions
: about pedophilia. :-(
: Note that considering the level of his last intervention it's perhaps better
: for him. :-)
:
: --
: "Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
: But what's new around here?"
:
: Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15


....................................
He Lionel,

your like/dislike balance is all in one position,
your dishes no longer spicey
but
sour 'nd bitter

what's cooking ?

Rudy

In , Ruud Broens wrote :


"Lionel" wrote in message
...
: In , Sander deWaal wrote :
:
: Lionel said:
:
: And a Jadis isn't crap. But it is overpriced. Never heard of
: Pegasus Audio, though.
:
: LOL, predictable retractation from our self-proclamed "high-end
: connoiseur" since he has in front of him a guy who knows a lot more
: than him on the subject.
:
:
: I wouldn't dare to compare my listening experience with Marc's, at
: least not in recent times.
:
: Anyway I will try to discourage you to do that. IMHO it's wasting time
: to engage "dick contests" like the one that this idiot tried to engage
: with McKelvy.
:
: I left (high end) consumer audio as a profession in 1998, and there is
: a lot of new brands and types released since then.
:
: There're 1000s of brands and local micro-manufacturers. Only moronic
: braggarts like Marc Phillips can arrive in a discussion saying "that's
: all crap".
:
: Also, I'm not familiar with the level of technical knowledge that Marc
: has.
:
: How to know it ? This braggart mainly spent his RAO time in discussions
: about pedophilia. :-(
: Note that considering the level of his last intervention it's perhaps
: better for him. :-)
:
: --
: "Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
: But what's new around here?"
:
: Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15


...................................
He Lionel,

your like/dislike balance is all in one position,
your dishes no longer spicey
but
sour 'nd bitter

what's cooking ?

Rudy

Good evening Rudy,

Since I'm sure that you are an intelligent and attentive reader I'm
convinced that you have noted that I wasn't speaking about
"like/dislike balance" but just about some abrupt and peremptory judgments
about people's tastes.
Considering that my own tastes are in constant change (evolution ?) I do my
best to stay as far as possible from the "that's all crap".

....But my soup is still correctly salt, at least to my taste. ;-)
What else ?


--
"Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
But what's new around here?"

Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15

"Lionel" wrote in message
...
: In , Ruud Broens wrote :
: : How to know it ? This braggart mainly spent his RAO time in discussions
: : about pedophilia. :-(
: : Note that considering the level of his last intervention it's perhaps
: : better for him. :-)
: :
: : --
: : "Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
: : But what's new around here?"
: :
: : Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15
:
:
: ...................................
: He Lionel,
:
: your like/dislike balance is all in one position,
: your dishes no longer spicey
: but
: sour 'nd bitter
:
: what's cooking ?
:
: Rudy
:
: Good evening Rudy,
:
: Since I'm sure that you are an intelligent and attentive reader I'm
: convinced that you have noted that I wasn't speaking about
: "like/dislike balance" but just about some abrupt and peremptory judgments
: about people's tastes.
: Considering that my own tastes are in constant change (evolution ?) I do my
: best to stay as far as possible from the "that's all crap".
:
: ...But my soup is still correctly salt, at least to my taste. ;-)
: What else ?
:
I assume you've gathered it was a comment on 'le ton' in many
of your recent postings on RAO ;-)

so, how about some audio content, sir ?
(think Wargames : "A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.
How about a nice game of chess?")

the question i recently put to Arny, how would you go about
comparing different drivers for some loudspeaker design
(assuming a multi-driver setup) ? say, a tweeter:
you'll have different frequency range, different frequency response,
different sensitivity , different dispersion, different power handling
capacity, different impedance, etc., etc.
now, say you'd have a perfect 10 Hz - 6 kHz 'lower part' of the design
ready, how to compare these different tweeters ?

for starters, you'll need different xo's for the drivers
so you're not _really_ comparing apples with apples
as some tweeters will 'use' more of the range produced
by the lower part
than others :-)

any practical ideas ?
cheers,
Rudy

"Ruud Broens" wrote in message


the question i recently put to Arny, how would you go
about
comparing different drivers for some loudspeaker design
(assuming a multi-driver setup) ? say, a tweeter:
you'll have different frequency range, different
frequency response, different sensitivity , different
dispersion, different power handling capacity, different
impedance, etc., etc.
now, say you'd have a perfect 10 Hz - 6 kHz 'lower part'
of the design ready, how to compare these different
tweeters ?

The way its commonly done is to build a number of complete
systems differing as little as possible given that each
represents the best you can do, including the various
alternatives.

for starters, you'll need different xo's for the drivers
so you're not _really_ comparing apples with apples
as some tweeters will 'use' more of the range produced
by the lower part than others :-)

This really isn't a stumbling block at all. The end goal is
to produce the system that best conforms to your
expectations. If you go into production with any of the
systems, of course your production model would include the
necessary variations in crossovers, etc.

In , Ruud Broens wrote :


"Lionel" wrote in message
...
: In , Ruud Broens wrote :
: : How to know it ? This braggart mainly spent his RAO time in
: : discussions about pedophilia. :-(
: : Note that considering the level of his last intervention it's
: : perhaps better for him. :-)
: :
: : --
: : "Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
: : But what's new around here?"
: :
: : Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15
:
:
: ...................................
: He Lionel,
:
: your like/dislike balance is all in one position,
: your dishes no longer spicey
: but
: sour 'nd bitter
:
: what's cooking ?
:
: Rudy
:
: Good evening Rudy,
:
: Since I'm sure that you are an intelligent and attentive reader I'm
: convinced that you have noted that I wasn't speaking about
: "like/dislike balance" but just about some abrupt and peremptory
: judgments about people's tastes.
: Considering that my own tastes are in constant change (evolution ?) I do
: my best to stay as far as possible from the "that's all crap".
:
: ...But my soup is still correctly salt, at least to my taste. ;-)
: What else ?
:
I assume you've gathered it was a comment on 'le ton' in many
of your recent postings on RAO ;-)

so, how about some audio content, sir ?
(think Wargames : "A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.
How about a nice game of chess?")

the question i recently put to Arny, how would you go about
comparing different drivers for some loudspeaker design
(assuming a multi-driver setup) ? say, a tweeter:
you'll have different frequency range, different frequency response,
different sensitivity , different dispersion, different power handling
capacity, different impedance, etc., etc.

Up to now I understand.

now, say you'd have a perfect 10 Hz - 6 kHz 'lower part' of the design
ready, how to compare these different tweeters ?

The game finishs here since (hopefully ?) I even cannot imagine the
above. ;-)

for starters, you'll need different xo's for the drivers
so you're not _really_ comparing apples with apples
as some tweeters will 'use' more of the range produced
by the lower part
than others :-)


I'm sincerely sorry Rudy but speaker DIY is just like cooking : it cannot be
dematerialized. Your question is a little bit naive, would you ask to a
chef "imagine that you have the perfect saulce what kind of meat will you
prepare with it ?"

any practical ideas ?

No theoric ideas.
If you feel that you have already assembled the "perfect" 10 hz - 6 khz I
must say that you are in a deep mud !!! Without any divine intervention you
are running to the greatest deception that one can imagine...
....You know the axiom, "no good bass with a poor tweeter".

I mean that "perfection" would be achieved only when you will have find
*THE* good tweeter. All the rest is rhetoric only, not speaker building.

BTW, IMHO perfection isn't a human goal. It is a lure for paranoids, borgs.




--
"Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
But what's new around here?"

Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15

"Lionel" wrote in message
...
: In , Ruud Broens wrote :
:
: so, how about some audio content, sir ?
: (think Wargames : "A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.
: How about a nice game of chess?")
:
: the question i recently put to Arny, how would you go about
: comparing different drivers for some loudspeaker design
: (assuming a multi-driver setup) ? say, a tweeter:
: you'll have different frequency range, different frequency response,
: different sensitivity , different dispersion, different power handling
: capacity, different impedance, etc., etc.
:
: Up to now I understand.
:
: now, say you'd have a perfect 10 Hz - 6 kHz 'lower part' of the design
: ready, how to compare these different tweeters ?
:
: The game finishs here since (hopefully ?) I even cannot imagine the
: above. ;-)

it's using a hypothetical position to level the field somewhat;
otherwise (as is the case in the real world) you'd have to take into
account the nonperfection of that lower part design and the
problem of assigning differences to differences-in-the-tweeter
is compounded.
what i'm really getting at is that at this point a builder can say:

"in the end i chose brand X model Y because it sounded best"

but that doesn't tell us much, does it ?
there are many different aspects and unless there is the very
unlikely case of a clear 'winner' in all categories evaluated,
it is a weighing game say less distortion vs. better pulse response
a small high frequency dropoff from 18 kHz but flawless dispersion
vs. ruler flat on-axis, but lousy dispersion,
etc.etc.

The DIYer, when armed with tools, time, etc.,
is at an advantage here - he can set those weighing factors
himself (m/f) ;-)
:
: for starters, you'll need different xo's for the drivers
: so you're not _really_ comparing apples with apples
: as some tweeters will 'use' more of the range produced
: by the lower part
: than others :-)
:
:
: I'm sincerely sorry Rudy but speaker DIY is just like cooking : it cannot be
: dematerialized. Your question is a little bit naive, would you ask to a
: chef "imagine that you have the perfect saulce what kind of meat will you
: prepare with it ?"
:
i assume you meant "cannot be decomposed" ?
so it's an Art ? :-)

: any practical ideas ?
:
: No theoric ideas.
: If you feel that you have already assembled the "perfect" 10 hz - 6 khz I
: must say that you are in a deep mud !!! Without any divine intervention you
: are running to the greatest deception that one can imagine...
: ...You know the axiom, "no good bass with a poor tweeter".
:
: I mean that "perfection" would be achieved only when you will have find
: *THE* good tweeter. All the rest is rhetoric only, not speaker building.
:
: BTW, IMHO perfection isn't a human goal. It is a lure for paranoids, borgs.
:
: "Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
: But what's new around here?"
:
: Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15

In , Ruud Broens wrote :


"Lionel" wrote in message
...
: In , Ruud Broens wrote :
:
: so, how about some audio content, sir ?
: (think Wargames : "A strange game. The only winning move is not to
: play.
: How about a nice game of chess?")
:
: the question i recently put to Arny, how would you go about
: comparing different drivers for some loudspeaker design
: (assuming a multi-driver setup) ? say, a tweeter:
: you'll have different frequency range, different frequency response,
: different sensitivity , different dispersion, different power handling
: capacity, different impedance, etc., etc.
:
: Up to now I understand.
:
: now, say you'd have a perfect 10 Hz - 6 kHz 'lower part' of the design
: ready, how to compare these different tweeters ?
:
: The game finishs here since (hopefully ?) I even cannot imagine the
: above. ;-)

it's using a hypothetical position to level the field somewhat;
otherwise (as is the case in the real world) you'd have to take into
account the nonperfection of that lower part design and the
problem of assigning differences to differences-in-the-tweeter
is compounded.
what i'm really getting at is that at this point a builder can say:

"in the end i chose brand X model Y because it sounded best"

but that doesn't tell us much, does it ?
there are many different aspects and unless there is the very
unlikely case of a clear 'winner' in all categories evaluated,
it is a weighing game say less distortion vs. better pulse response
a small high frequency dropoff from 18 kHz but flawless dispersion
vs. ruler flat on-axis, but lousy dispersion,
etc.etc.

The DIYer, when armed with tools, time, etc.,
is at an advantage here - he can set those weighing factors
himself (m/f) ;-)
:
: for starters, you'll need different xo's for the drivers
: so you're not _really_ comparing apples with apples
: as some tweeters will 'use' more of the range produced
: by the lower part
: than others :-)
:
:
: I'm sincerely sorry Rudy but speaker DIY is just like cooking : it
: cannot be dematerialized. Your question is a little bit naive, would you
: ask to a chef "imagine that you have the perfect saulce what kind of
: meat will you prepare with it ?"
:
i assume you meant "cannot be decomposed" ?
so it's an Art ? :-)

Exactly. An *Art*.
That doesn't mean that I think that I am an artist even not an artisan.
I'm just like the guy who made a few months attempt with a musical
instrument and has suddenly understood all the difficulty of the
interpretation.
I've seen a guy on this forum who used to sign with the slogan "music is
art, audio is engineering".
I know that he is wrong, at least, for the speakers.
To built a good speaker is as difficult as to create a good perfume, you
have the chose among an infinity of elements and solutions for your
assembly and you have to make *the* choice.


: any practical ideas ?
:
: No theoric ideas.
: If you feel that you have already assembled the "perfect" 10 hz - 6 khz
: I must say that you are in a deep mud !!! Without any divine
: intervention you are running to the greatest deception that one can
: imagine... ...You know the axiom, "no good bass with a poor tweeter".
:
: I mean that "perfection" would be achieved only when you will have find
: *THE* good tweeter. All the rest is rhetoric only, not speaker building.
:
: BTW, IMHO perfection isn't a human goal. It is a lure for paranoids,
: borgs.
:
: "Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
: But what's new around here?"
:
: Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15

--
"Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
But what's new around here?"

Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15

In , Ruud Broens wrote :


"Lionel" wrote in message
...
: In , Ruud Broens wrote :
:
: so, how about some audio content, sir ?
: (think Wargames : "A strange game. The only winning move is not to
: play.
: How about a nice game of chess?")
:
: the question i recently put to Arny, how would you go about
: comparing different drivers for some loudspeaker design
: (assuming a multi-driver setup) ? say, a tweeter:
: you'll have different frequency range, different frequency response,
: different sensitivity , different dispersion, different power handling
: capacity, different impedance, etc., etc.


Ooops, sorry I missed this part of your post.

: Up to now I understand.
:
: now, say you'd have a perfect 10 Hz - 6 kHz 'lower part' of the design
: ready, how to compare these different tweeters ?
:
: The game finishs here since (hopefully ?) I even cannot imagine the
: above. ;-)

it's using a hypothetical position to level the field somewhat;
otherwise (as is the case in the real world) you'd have to take into
account the nonperfection of that lower part design and the
problem of assigning differences to differences-in-the-tweeter
is compounded.

Playing with the "nonperfection" is full part of the game this is why I
don't want to play with your original postulate. :-)

what i'm really getting at is that at this point a builder can say:

"in the end i chose brand X model Y because it sounded best"

Because it is better matching the temporary, unstable and fragile
"perfection" that I think I have reached.

but that doesn't tell us much, does it ?
there are many different aspects and unless there is the very
unlikely case of a clear 'winner' in all categories evaluated,
it is a weighing game say less distortion vs. better pulse response
a small high frequency dropoff from 18 kHz but flawless dispersion
vs. ruler flat on-axis, but lousy dispersion,
etc.etc.

The DIYer, when armed with tools, time, etc.,
is at an advantage here - he can set those weighing factors
himself (m/f) ;-)

Don't forget "passion".
And if in the end you can share the fruit of your pleasure with others
listening some music...


--
"Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
But what's new around here?"

Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15