"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Pooh Bear" wrote
in message
wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Pooh Bear"
wrote
in message

So what do you think it is that makes damping factor
*unimportant* ?

It's not that damping factor isn't important, its that
it is an odd way to express the underlying physical
parameter which is amplifier source impedance.

For openers, damping factor isn't an amplifier
parameter, its a parameter that is also strongly
dependent on load impedance. Unfortunately the
underlying physical parameter remains pretty much
unchanged, regardless of load impedance.

With good modern amps, the amplifier's damping factor
is generally so high that it gets swamped by all sorts
of things including voice coil DCR and speaker wire DCR.

It means a lot more with tubed amps.


Which is probably why it was ever expressed as a value
at all. When they came up with it, tubes were dominant,
then came good more accurate, less volatile,
transistors. :-)

Whether tube ( valve ) or transistor - damping factor ( a
reciprocal measure of amplifer output impedance ) is
important.

A low damping factor means that an amplifier cannot
adequately control speaker resonances or the back emf
caused by transients.

This would be a common misconception.

When one designs a speaker system, the source impedance of the amplifier
is simply part of the design of the speaker.

For example, if you *know* that the amp has a source impedance of one ohm,
you simply design for that operational condition. You plug one ohm into
the Thiel/small parameters for the woofer, and you plug one ohm into the
design of the crossovers.

But that's the problem, Arny, you don't know, unless you are
perhaps a broadcast engineer specifying a complete audio chain.

People expect their new amp to work with their existing
speakers, and vice versa. If these speakers present a difficult
load, or do not comply with the recommendations of
IEC/EN/BS EN 60268-5 they may find themselves sadly
disappointed.

SETs can produce the most wonderful small-ensemble music
at lowish levels with full range horns, but try one with an ELS.

Do the designing right, and you end up with a speaker that is no more (or
less) resonant.

Few if any of us design our own speakers.

Iain

Iain M Churches said to Arnii "Blowhard" Krooborg:

Do the designing right, and you end up with a speaker that is no more (or
less) resonant.

Few if any of us design our own speakers.

Especially Arnii Krooger.



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"Iain M Churches" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Pooh Bear"
wrote in message
wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Pooh Bear"
wrote
in message

So what do you think it is that makes damping factor
*unimportant* ?

It's not that damping factor isn't important, its that
it is an odd way to express the underlying physical
parameter which is amplifier source impedance.

For openers, damping factor isn't an amplifier
parameter, its a parameter that is also strongly
dependent on load impedance. Unfortunately the
underlying physical parameter remains pretty much
unchanged, regardless of load impedance.

With good modern amps, the amplifier's damping factor
is generally so high that it gets swamped by all sorts
of things including voice coil DCR and speaker wire
DCR. It means a lot more with tubed amps.


Which is probably why it was ever expressed as a value
at all. When they came up with it, tubes were
dominant, then came good more accurate, less volatile,
transistors. :-)

Whether tube ( valve ) or transistor - damping factor (
a reciprocal measure of amplifer output impedance ) is
important.

A low damping factor means that an amplifier cannot
adequately control speaker resonances or the back emf
caused by transients.

This would be a common misconception.

When one designs a speaker system, the source impedance
of the amplifier is simply part of the design of the
speaker. For example, if you *know* that the amp has a
source
impedance of one ohm, you simply design for that
operational condition. You plug one ohm into the
Thiel/small parameters for the woofer, and you plug one
ohm into the design of the crossovers.

But that's the problem, Arny, you don't know, unless you
are perhaps a broadcast engineer specifying a complete
audio chain.

Exactly, hence the charm of building speakers that are
designed to work with low source impedances, and amplifiers
that provide low source impedances.

People expect their new amp to work with their existing
speakers, and vice versa. If these speakers present a
difficult load, or do not comply with the recommendations
of IEC/EN/BS EN 60268-5 they may find themselves sadly
disappointed.

Agreed.

SETs can produce the most wonderful small-ensemble music
at lowish levels with full range horns, but try one with
an ELS.

I've heard SETs at lowist levels with full range horns, and
I'm still not charmed.

Do the designing right, and you end up with a speaker
that is no more (or less) resonant.

Few if any of us design our own speakers.

Hence the charm of speakers that are designed to work with
low source impedances, and amplifiers that provide low
source impedances.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain M Churches" wrote in message

SETs can produce the most wonderful small-ensemble music
at lowish levels with full range horns, but try one with
an ELS.

I've heard SETs at lowist levels with full range horns, and I'm still not
charmed.

I have been a recording professional for many years, and for
some reason have never taken SET seriously. Just recently
a friend who is a professional cellist, Russian born, invited
me to listen to some new recordings of the Shostakovich
Quartets. It was an unforgettable musical experience.

Iain

"Iain M Churches" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain M Churches" wrote in message

SETs can produce the most wonderful small-ensemble music
at lowish levels with full range horns, but try one with
an ELS.

I've heard SETs at lowist levels with full range horns,
and I'm still not charmed.

I have been a recording professional for many years, and
for some reason have never taken SET seriously. Just
recently a friend who is a professional cellist, Russian
born,
invited me to listen to some new recordings of the
Shostakovich Quartets. It was an unforgettable musical
experience.

I heard a number of SETs with a number of different speakers
at HE2005 and the experience was as you say, unforgettable.
I almost lost my lunch on the floor of any number of
listening rooms that centerpieced glowing bottles.

Once I was amazed that one room with glowing bottles did not
raise my gorge. Then I noticed that the glowing bottles were
in push-pull pairs. It makes a difference!

"Arny Krueger" said:

Once I was amazed that one room with glowing bottles did not
raise my gorge. Then I noticed that the glowing bottles were
in push-pull pairs. It makes a difference!


"Nothing beats a pair of 2A3s in PP!" ;-)

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" said:

Once I was amazed that one room with glowing bottles did
not raise my gorge. Then I noticed that the glowing
bottles were in push-pull pairs. It makes a difference!


"Nothing beats a pair of 2A3s in PP!" ;-)

That would be the penny-ante consumer version. Real men used
211s. Of course this was all true in 1936, and totally
obsolete by 1950.

"Arny Krueger" said:

Once I was amazed that one room with glowing bottles did
not raise my gorge. Then I noticed that the glowing
bottles were in push-pull pairs. It makes a difference!


"Nothing beats a pair of 2A3s in PP!" ;-)


That would be the penny-ante consumer version. Real men used
211s. Of course this was all true in 1936, and totally
obsolete by 1950.


Crowhurst et al didn't seem to think it was a problem to use 2A3s in
an audio amplifier in the '50s.

Amazing they were able to build such good amplifiers 50 years ago!

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005