i am working with a classical quartet in the studio - flute, pedal
harp, violin, and cello. i did a CD with these guys about a year ago
which came out fine. at that time, i pretty much close mic'ed each
instrument at about 2-3 feet out. i was not perfectly happy with the
final mix, as i felt like the instruments were a bit too in your face
(especially the flute, for some reason), but the group liked it.

this time, i started moving the mics out further, to around 5-6 feet,
and it has made a real difference in the way the instruments sit inthe
mix - a little more of the group feel, rather than 4 individual
instruments. i also supplemented the main mics with a stereo pair of
DPA omnis out inthe room some, but while i sort of like them mixed in,
the group prefers just the four individual mics.

couple things - i dont know exactly why i have never tried getting my
mics that far back before, as they really start sounding much more
realistic at a distance than they do at 2-3 feet. i guess just because
almost everything i ever read indicates relatively close micing like
that in studio settings (unless you have a really nice sounding studio,
which i do not). it seems most people that track acoustic guitars use
very close mic techniques. and lots of people jsut dont like distant
mics much, even for applications where that has always been the norm,
like for a grand piano.

i would appreciate some comments from others that have done this kind
of work - is it more common to pull mics that far back, or further, for
classical instrumentation? if i were to use omnis instead of cards,
would i pull them back in some to get the same effect, or is it really
just the actual distance from mic to instrument that is making the
difference i am hearing? if i continue to use more distant micing like
this, should i consider moving from cards to hypers to further reduce
room noises? thanks.

What you should try first, IMO (group acquiescence or not) is to use just
the two Omni's about four feet over their heads. Sit them in a semicircle
and place the two mics somewhat in front (2') and above (4') players 1 and
2, and again 3 and 4. The mics should be perhaps four-six feet apart. Try
it...my guess is they will like it better than what you have done...they'll
get a relatively close up "presence" and at the same time some smoothness
and ambience from using the Omni's. If they don't like it...nothing lost.

wrote in message
oups.com...
i am working with a classical quartet in the studio - flute, pedal
harp, violin, and cello. i did a CD with these guys about a year ago
which came out fine. at that time, i pretty much close mic'ed each
instrument at about 2-3 feet out. i was not perfectly happy with the
final mix, as i felt like the instruments were a bit too in your face
(especially the flute, for some reason), but the group liked it.

this time, i started moving the mics out further, to around 5-6 feet,
and it has made a real difference in the way the instruments sit inthe
mix - a little more of the group feel, rather than 4 individual
instruments. i also supplemented the main mics with a stereo pair of
DPA omnis out inthe room some, but while i sort of like them mixed in,
the group prefers just the four individual mics.

couple things - i dont know exactly why i have never tried getting my
mics that far back before, as they really start sounding much more
realistic at a distance than they do at 2-3 feet. i guess just because
almost everything i ever read indicates relatively close micing like
that in studio settings (unless you have a really nice sounding studio,
which i do not). it seems most people that track acoustic guitars use
very close mic techniques. and lots of people jsut dont like distant
mics much, even for applications where that has always been the norm,
like for a grand piano.

i would appreciate some comments from others that have done this kind
of work - is it more common to pull mics that far back, or further, for
classical instrumentation? if i were to use omnis instead of cards,
would i pull them back in some to get the same effect, or is it really
just the actual distance from mic to instrument that is making the
difference i am hearing? if i continue to use more distant micing like
this, should i consider moving from cards to hypers to further reduce
room noises? thanks.

jnorman34 wrote...
i am working with a classical quartet in the studio - flute, pedal
harp, violin, and cello. i did a CD with these guys about a year ago
which came out fine. at that time, i pretty much close mic'ed each
instrument at about 2-3 feet out. i was not perfectly happy with the
final mix, as i felt like the instruments were a bit too in your face
(especially the flute, for some reason), but the group liked it.

this time, i started moving the mics out further, to around 5-6 feet,
and it has made a real difference in the way the instruments sit inthe
mix - a little more of the group feel, rather than 4 individual
instruments. i also supplemented the main mics with a stereo pair of
DPA omnis out inthe room some, but while i sort of like them mixed in,
the group prefers just the four individual mics.

Sometimes I think they have that preference because of their
own perspective while playing within the group. As contrasted
with the ensemble sound someone in the audience would expect.
Do any of the performers have recordings of similar groups which
they particularly like? What are *those* recordings like? (just to
try to make it a bit more objective.)

writes:

of work - is it more common to pull mics that far back, or further, for
classical instrumentation? if i were to use omnis instead of cards,
would i pull them back in some to get the same effect, or is it really
just the actual distance from mic to instrument that is making the
difference i am hearing? if i continue to use more distant micing like
this, should i consider moving from cards to hypers to further reduce
room noises? thanks.

How noisy is your room?

If I had a reasonable room I'd probably go with close micing (2-3 feet as
you noted) but then do a stereo pair 8-12 feet back, and very possibly a
spaced pair way back to give me another (bigger) picture of the room
character.

I'd then have different characters to mix with, plus the accent/focus of
the close mics as needed. I might also experiment with time slips on some
of the room mics (assuming you have a digital recorder or are mixing in a
DAW).

Exactly how you mic/mix also depends on the material itself, and how it's
played. See if you can educate yourself a little about the music; the
players can probably help you.

You do have to be circumspect with musicians at times -- often they have
extraordinary ears but no overall sense of how best to maintain any given
illusion (and remember, transducers into a storage medium and back out is
all about illusion). So when they say, "gee, that sounds good" it might be
that they mean, "gee, that sounds like I'm right with my instrument." That
might be fine, but it might not reflect what an audience member
might like hear.

It gets trickier still, in that as you add more "close ambience" sound
(say in the 4-6 foot range) you can create more unwanted conflicts in
various listening situations. (Recording room comb filtering interacting
with the typical untreated home listening room comb filtering.)

That's why I usually get a very present close sound, either by individual
close mics or by a close-in pair, but then add in additional room mics to
support the" room and space" illusion on playback.

This approach seems to suffer less damage with suboptimal playback
situations, yet can still sound darn good in most situations.

Best of luck,

Frank Stearns
Mobile Audio

--

wrote:

i would appreciate some comments from others that have done this kind
of work - is it more common to pull mics that far back, or further, for
classical instrumentation? if i were to use omnis instead of cards,
would i pull them back in some to get the same effect, or is it really
just the actual distance from mic to instrument that is making the
difference i am hearing? if i continue to use more distant micing like
this, should i consider moving from cards to hypers to further reduce
room noises? thanks.

I tend to pull back more like twenty or thirty feet for this sort of
thing when using cardioids, to get a sense of ensemble.

Moving to hypercardioids won't help your room noise problems, because
you want the room ambience to give you a sense of space, and if you
use tighter mikes, you'll have to pull them farther back. It might
buy you something in that hypercardioids tend to be flatter off-axis,
but that's a generalization.

You might try a Jecklin disc with a pair of omnis... when it works, it
really is amazing.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."