In absence of any response from Tom, I decided to email him directly, two
days after he posted his offer. I didn't do it before because I felt it was
only appropriate to reply publicly to what looked like a pure and noble
public initiative, crossposted to several newsgroups, just like a rather
constructive discussion that followed my reply. Yes, i was the first to
accept Tom's offer.

It turns out, Tom has already sold the items to somebody else.

I have no reason to doubt that the money will end up helping the victims of
the hurricane. Still, there are questions I must ask.

Was it unreallistic to expect that the person who made such a public offer
would also check within a day or two whether his initiative has generated
any response on any of the newsgroups? My reply/offer was inadvertently
crossposted too.

Was it unreallistic to expect him to at least inform the community of the
outcome of his efforts and that the offer was no longer valid?

Is it reallistic to assume that he really didn't care to do any of it?

This was not a private drop-me-a-line sale. The items offered are ready
available on Ebay at any time so it must have been addressed to and based on
good will and intentions. The price was a non-issue, as it should be in a
case like this.

In times like this we should stick together. Or at least stop building the
invisible walls, for a moment.

Instead, I'm going to bed wondering about why exactly I wasn't welcome to
contribute and, since there's hidden criteria for the contributors, are
there criteria for the recipients of the help too?

--
Predrag

To reply, remove NESPAMU from my email address:

Predrag Trpkov wrote:
In absence of any response from Tom, I decided to email him directly, two
days after he posted his offer. I didn't do it before because I felt it was
only appropriate to reply publicly to what looked like a pure and noble
public initiative, crossposted to several newsgroups, just like a rather
constructive discussion that followed my reply. Yes, i was the first to
accept Tom's offer.

It turns out, Tom has already sold the items to somebody else.

I have no reason to doubt that the money will end up helping the victims of
the hurricane. Still, there are questions I must ask.

Was it unreallistic to expect that the person who made such a public offer
would also check within a day or two whether his initiative has generated
any response on any of the newsgroups? My reply/offer was inadvertently
crossposted too.

Was it unreallistic to expect him to at least inform the community of the
outcome of his efforts and that the offer was no longer valid?

Is it reallistic to assume that he really didn't care to do any of it?

This was not a private drop-me-a-line sale. The items offered are ready
available on Ebay at any time so it must have been addressed to and based on
good will and intentions. The price was a non-issue, as it should be in a
case like this.

In times like this we should stick together. Or at least stop building the
invisible walls, for a moment.

Instead, I'm going to bed wondering about why exactly I wasn't welcome to
contribute and, since there's hidden criteria for the contributors, are
there criteria for the recipients of the help too?

--
Predrag

To reply, remove NESPAMU from my email address:



Ah, don't sweat it. Just make a donation to one of the relief
organizations.

Predrag Trpkov wrote:

In absence of any response from Tom, I decided to email him
directly, two days after he posted his offer. I didn't do it
before because I felt it was only appropriate to reply publicly
to what looked like a pure and noble public initiative,

Indeed it did.

crossposted to several newsgroups, just like a rather
constructive discussion that followed my reply. Yes, i was the
first to accept Tom's offer.

Not to worry, I think you had had a line voltage issue with the external
stuff that I understood some of it to be.

It turns out, Tom has already sold the items to somebody else.

It had indeed come across as more fair if he had announced that when it
happened, please do allow for the possibility that the buyer actually
_was_ first and used a different means of communication.

We all occasionally goof and thus learn to do things better next time.

Predrag


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

Jebabical wrote:

Predrag wrote:

Instead, I'm going to bed wondering about why exactly I
wasn't welcome to contribute and, since there's hidden
criteria for the contributors, are there criteria for the
recipients of the help too?

You have to understand that selling to someone standing next to you with
dollars in hand is always easier, that IS the other side of this. That
said, "This" side of it is that an "overseas" help offer - as yours was
- comes across as having been refused, but you must understand that Tom
probably never saw that angle of it and probably just took the first bid
he got.

Ah, don't sweat it. Just make a donation to one of the relief
organizations.

If one makes a sale offer to a global audience one should be prepared to
sell to anyone in that audience, as I read Predrag his worry is that
such an understanding and intent was not there on the side of the
seller.

I almost bid too, also because the citizens of the U.S. of A. deserves
seeing globality work, but didn't because I worried about mains power
compatibility.
Salvation army will likely get something once their server is not
overloaded ... yet again they come across as not wasting the money they
get.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

"Peter Larsen" wrote in message
...
Jebabical wrote:

Predrag wrote:

Instead, I'm going to bed wondering about why exactly I
wasn't welcome to contribute and, since there's hidden
criteria for the contributors, are there criteria for the
recipients of the help too?

You have to understand that selling to someone standing next to you with
dollars in hand is always easier, that IS the other side of this. That
said, "This" side of it is that an "overseas" help offer - as yours was
- comes across as having been refused, but you must understand that Tom
probably never saw that angle of it and probably just took the first bid
he got.



To publicly announce such a caring and noble initiative on several
newsgroups, without specifically asking people to contact him directly, and
then not to care as little as to check whether there's any response, offers
or comments, on any of these newsgroups? No, it doesn't make sense.




Ah, don't sweat it. Just make a donation to one of the relief
organizations.



I'd have to go out and search if any of it is available yet, here where I
live. Relief organizations in distant parts of the world usually need time
to catch up, organize and advertize the accounts and then it takes time for
them to collect donations and transfer the money. The victims need help now.
It's the matter of days, true, but with each day passing, we get used to the
images, we become desensitized and numb and tend to get locked again in our
regular schedule, in our regular frame of mind. It's happened to me before
despite best intentions.




If one makes a sale offer to a global audience one should be prepared to
sell to anyone in that audience, as I read Predrag his worry is that
such an understanding and intent was not there on the side of the
seller.



Exactly. Playing with the good will and intentions of people is
counter-productive on many levels.

Predrag

"Peter Larsen" wrote in message
...
Predrag Trpkov wrote:

In absence of any response from Tom, I decided to email him
directly, two days after he posted his offer. I didn't do it
before because I felt it was only appropriate to reply publicly
to what looked like a pure and noble public initiative,

Indeed it did.

crossposted to several newsgroups, just like a rather
constructive discussion that followed my reply. Yes, i was the
first to accept Tom's offer.

Not to worry, I think you had had a line voltage issue with the external
stuff that I understood some of it to be.



Never even came to think about it. I didn't even need an older system like
that as I have already bought two new 96kHz-capable systems this year. But I
figured I could always sell one of them.




It turns out, Tom has already sold the items to somebody else.

It had indeed come across as more fair if he had announced that when it
happened, please do allow for the possibility that the buyer actually
_was_ first and used a different means of communication.



It's still no excuse for not making it public, just like the offer.

Instead, I had to defend myself here against accusations of scam all day
long on Saturday. As if it weren't unpleasant enough.




We all occasionally goof and thus learn to do things better next time.


Oh yeah, next time I'll know better.

Predrag

You are always welcome to contribute. You don't need to buy something to do so.

As I explained in my email to you, I have a family and don't spend all of my
time
lurking on newgroups or forums. In fact, I'm unable to read netnews from home
(I'm
in my office at work now, so that's why I'm finally following up on your post,
Tues.
morning).

I sold these to the first person who sent me a direct email to buy them. Yes, I
do
read email regularly. They sold quickly. The person is paying with a Money
Order,
so as I do not yet have the MO (they too are out of the US, so it will be an
Intl one),
I have not posted or marked the items as completely "sold" yet, in the event
something
goes wrong.

Sorry chief, you're emails to me (you should have sent me one in the first place
telling
ME you wanted to buy them rather than the rest of the netnews world) and this
posting of yours sound like sour grapes. I'm sure there are plenty more MOTU
units
around for you to buy at a great price. Ebay has them regularly. I don't see
where I've
done anything wrong or dishonest here. Way to go to turn something that was
done as
a positive into a negative.

This sale was for hurricane victims. 100% of the money from this is going to
that cause.
I'm making nothing on this and certainly never set out to screw anyone in this
process.
You sould be happy they sold and that the sale will (hopefully) help some folks.

My apologies to anyone else in a similar situation to Predrags. I got very few
direct
responses to my posts, a couple offering me less for the units, and one that
agreed to buy
for the listed price. My only goal was in selling these units and donating the
money. And
that's what I did (am in the process of doing).

--Tom

Predrag Trpkov wrote:

In absence of any response from Tom, I decided to email him directly, two
days after he posted his offer. I didn't do it before because I felt it was
only appropriate to reply publicly to what looked like a pure and noble
public initiative, crossposted to several newsgroups, just like a rather
constructive discussion that followed my reply. Yes, i was the first to
accept Tom's offer.

It turns out, Tom has already sold the items to somebody else.

I have no reason to doubt that the money will end up helping the victims of
the hurricane. Still, there are questions I must ask.

Was it unreallistic to expect that the person who made such a public offer
would also check within a day or two whether his initiative has generated
any response on any of the newsgroups? My reply/offer was inadvertently
crossposted too.

Was it unreallistic to expect him to at least inform the community of the
outcome of his efforts and that the offer was no longer valid?

Is it reallistic to assume that he really didn't care to do any of it?

This was not a private drop-me-a-line sale. The items offered are ready
available on Ebay at any time so it must have been addressed to and based on
good will and intentions. The price was a non-issue, as it should be in a
case like this.

In times like this we should stick together. Or at least stop building the
invisible walls, for a moment.

Instead, I'm going to bed wondering about why exactly I wasn't welcome to
contribute and, since there's hidden criteria for the contributors, are
there criteria for the recipients of the help too?

--
Predrag

To reply, remove NESPAMU from my email address:

"Tom Sullivan" wrote in message
...

You are always welcome to contribute. You don't need to buy something to
do so.


I don't think this patronizing is appropriate or productive, especially not
now.



Sorry chief, you're emails to me (you should have sent me one in the first
place
telling
ME you wanted to buy them rather than the rest of the netnews world) and
this
posting of yours sound like sour grapes.



You crossposted your offer to the netnews world and didn't ask to be
contacted directly. Furthermore, the public nature of your initiative, the
good cause as well as the urgency and scope of the problem implied certain
level of responsability and care on your part, the minimum of which would be
to announce it to the same audience as soon as you've accepted a
counter-offer.

Maybe it's just me, but if my country was hit by a disaster and I was in a
position to make such a call to the world, I'd be sitting in front of the
computer around the clock.



I'm sure there are plenty more MOTU
units
around for you to buy at a great price. Ebay has them regularly. I don't
see
where I've
done anything wrong or dishonest here.



This wasn't just an ordinary sale. This was a charity initiative. And as far
as I'm concerned, it wasn't about the sale at all. Such an initiative
adresses people's sincere emotions and generates a different kind of
feedback, a wider, more spontaneous response. I'm sorry you still don't
understand that.



Way to go to turn something that was
done as
a positive into a negative.

This sale was for hurricane victims. 100% of the money from this is going
to
that cause.
I'm making nothing on this and certainly never set out to screw anyone in
this
process.
You sould be happy they sold and that the sale will (hopefully) help some
folks.

My apologies to anyone else in a similar situation to Predrags.



You're apologizing to the rest of the world while calling me chief and
saying I should be happy?

Maybe I should. This was a splendid learning experience.

Predrag

Tom Sullivan wrote:

Sorry chief, you're emails to me (you should have sent me one
in the first place ....

You didn't explain the need for an email response so the general
principle of ask in a group read in a group would be expected to apply.

around for you to buy at a great price. Ebay has them regularly.
I don't see where I've done anything wrong or dishonest here.

You post an offer in a newsgroup and by the interested people answering
with a newsgroup post the time sequence of who was interested first is
objectively clear. That openness generally makes such trade a lot
simpler and eliminates hard feelings.

Way to go to turn something that was done as
a positive into a negative.

You did that Tom by causing an interested buyer to get the impression
that you would not sell overseas. It is clear to everybody that so was
not the intention, but it was you who should have explained up front
that you were not able to follow this newsgroup with such a reguarity
that an email response would not also be relevant.

My apologies to anyone else in a similar situation to Predrags.

By that wording you exclude the one person whom you have disappointed
from your apology, you might want to rephrase it as I assume it to be
unintentional.

I got very few direct responses to my posts,

Of course, that is the neatness of newsgroup openness. Two interested
parties, Predrag and someone else, followed up within short time, and it
was obvious that Predrag was first, so all other interested parties
folded in silent aknowledgemewnt thereof. It was not because other
people were parhaps not interested, but because one interested partee
had shown up and seemed certain to make the deal. You seem to have been
ignorant about that it is the way such an open newsgroup sales works in
a well behaved newsgroup.

a couple offering me less for the units, and one that agreed to
buy for the listed price. My only goal was in selling these
units and donating the money. And
that's what I did (am in the process of doing).

Tom, please understand that I for one would like to see this concluded
in a more amicable tone. It is sometimes unavoidable to end up offending
or disappointing osmeone on these international networks, and if it
happens it is very wise to simply apologize and explain, you explain,
but you really should try typing something like: "Predrag, I am sorry
that I unintentionally disappointed you."

--Tom


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************