Looking to upgrade a very old LP12 (c. 1975; original SME 3009 II
tonearm; no upgrades at all). Was considering Cirkus kit alone. I'm
interested in getting back in to my vinyl collection and am looking
for simply a good sound; nothing too extravagant.

How would this upgrade strategy compare to say the purchase of a new
or (better?) used TT? Given the limited Cirkus upgrade, new cartridge
and proper setup, would an upgrade to another TT require a
considerably higher outlay of cash for the same quality of sound? I
see some mint used Rega's kicking about for $1200 - $1500 Cdn. I
suspect that Cirkus + cartrdige + labour will taken me to about the
$1200 region.

Thanks for any and all.
--

Monroe

"Monroe" wrote in message
...
Looking to upgrade a very old LP12 (c. 1975; original SME 3009 II
tonearm; no upgrades at all). Was considering Cirkus kit alone. I'm
interested in getting back in to my vinyl collection and am looking
for simply a good sound; nothing too extravagant.

How would this upgrade strategy compare to say the purchase of a new
or (better?) used TT? Given the limited Cirkus upgrade, new cartridge
and proper setup, would an upgrade to another TT require a
considerably higher outlay of cash for the same quality of sound? I
see some mint used Rega's kicking about for $1200 - $1500 Cdn. I
suspect that Cirkus + cartrdige + labour will taken me to about the
$1200 region.

Thanks for any and all.

I'd recommend just the Valhalla power supply upgrade...biggest bang for the
buck...and some like the Cirkus, some not...so it's expensive and chancy.
Don't know anybody who felt the Valhalla was not a big step forward.

Arm is still good if you can get a cartridge to match..medium mass low
output moving coils should mate fairly well.

Harry Lavo wrote:
"Monroe" wrote in message
...

Looking to upgrade a very old LP12 (c. 1975; original SME 3009 II
tonearm; no upgrades at all).

I'd recommend just the Valhalla power supply upgrade...biggest bang for the
buck...

I own an LP12 that's even older than yours (c. 1971). I picked it up
in 1987 and did the Valhalla upgrade at that time, put a Rega RB300
arm on it and have used Rega cartridges ever since. You've got a
top notch tone arm in your SME 3009 II, so just get a good cartridge
to go with it.

The LP12, if properly maintained, will last longer than you will.
Heck, there will likely be LP12 tables still running 100 years from
now. Good stuff. Can't go wrong.

Russ

"Russ Button" wrote

The LP12, if properly maintained, will last longer than you will.
Heck, there will likely be LP12 tables still running 100 years from
now. Good stuff. Can't go wrong.


What do you consider as proper maintenance, other than seeing to it that the
springs are properly adjusted, the belt is tight enough, and there is
sufficient oil in the bearing well? My original LP-12 developed a failed
on/off switch and a dead motor. Did you ever have to go in and under the
table to replace the motor? I had to, and restoring all to its original
configuration getting the TT to run at exact speed, is a near impossibility.
The only solution are the "upgrades" many of which equal the cost of a brand
new TT. I'd junk the LP-12. I have an older Thorens TD-125 and it still runs
perfectly, never having to replace anything but the belt; and the speed is
and can be adjusted to perfection, regardless of seasonal variation in
current demand. To get a Linn LP-12 to do this via the upgrade route costs
more than the proverbial arm and a leg and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if
the thing goes to pot in some other way. It appears if you do all the
upgrades you will be left with nothing but the original plinth. Since I
haven't kept up with those upgrades, nor do I need to do so, for all I know
one might not even be left with the original plinth.

"Norman M. Schwartz" wrote in message
...
"Russ Button" wrote

The LP12, if properly maintained, will last longer than you will.
Heck, there will likely be LP12 tables still running 100 years from
now. Good stuff. Can't go wrong.


What do you consider as proper maintenance, other than seeing to it that
the
springs are properly adjusted, the belt is tight enough, and there is
sufficient oil in the bearing well? My original LP-12 developed a failed
on/off switch and a dead motor. Did you ever have to go in and under the
table to replace the motor? I had to, and restoring all to its original
configuration getting the TT to run at exact speed, is a near
impossibility.
The only solution are the "upgrades" many of which equal the cost of a
brand
new TT. I'd junk the LP-12. I have an older Thorens TD-125 and it still
runs
perfectly, never having to replace anything but the belt; and the speed is
and can be adjusted to perfection, regardless of seasonal variation in
current demand. To get a Linn LP-12 to do this via the upgrade route costs
more than the proverbial arm and a leg and I wouldn't be a bit surprised
if
the thing goes to pot in some other way. It appears if you do all the
upgrades you will be left with nothing but the original plinth. Since I
haven't kept up with those upgrades, nor do I need to do so, for all I
know
one might not even be left with the original plinth.

I had an early Linn with the 50hz Valhalla supply and motor. Valhalla died,
and it was cheaper to pick up another used, but it was 60hz, so I also
picked up a 60hz motor. Installing them was no problem at all.

On 15 Aug 2005 23:26:22 GMT, "Norman M. Schwartz"
wrote:

"Russ Button" wrote

The LP12, if properly maintained, will last longer than you will.
Heck, there will likely be LP12 tables still running 100 years from
now. Good stuff. Can't go wrong.


What do you consider as proper maintenance, other than seeing to it that the
springs are properly adjusted, the belt is tight enough, and there is
sufficient oil in the bearing well? My original LP-12 developed a failed
on/off switch and a dead motor. Did you ever have to go in and under the
table to replace the motor? I had to, and restoring all to its original
configuration getting the TT to run at exact speed, is a near impossibility.
The only solution are the "upgrades" many of which equal the cost of a brand
new TT. I'd junk the LP-12. I have an older Thorens TD-125 and it still runs
perfectly, never having to replace anything but the belt; and the speed is
and can be adjusted to perfection, regardless of seasonal variation in
current demand. To get a Linn LP-12 to do this via the upgrade route costs
more than the proverbial arm and a leg and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if
the thing goes to pot in some other way. It appears if you do all the
upgrades you will be left with nothing but the original plinth. Since I
haven't kept up with those upgrades, nor do I need to do so, for all I know
one might not even be left with the original plinth.

Certainly not, on an older model, as the original Afrormosia plinth
was made with an oily wood which rejects glue over time. As a result,
many of the original plinths literally fell apart!

As others have noted, the best 'upgrade' for a Linn is to dump it on
ebay and buy a properly engineered table, such as a Michell or Rega
(Origin Live is the best modern equivalent of the old Regas).

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Norman M. Schwartz wrote:
"Russ Button" wrote

The LP12, if properly maintained, will last longer than you will.
Heck, there will likely be LP12 tables still running 100 years from
now. Good stuff. Can't go wrong.


What do you consider as proper maintenance, other than seeing to it that the
springs are properly adjusted, the belt is tight enough, and there is
sufficient oil in the bearing well?

Well I've only owned my LP12 for 18 years. I have to admit that it's
going to take another 82 years to make good on my 100 year claim.

My original LP-12 developed a failed
on/off switch and a dead motor. Did you ever have to go in and under the
table to replace the motor?

That's what Linn dealers are for. I bought my table without an arm,
cartridge or dust cover for $300. After I took it to the Linn dealer (in 1987)
who installed the Valhalla upgrade, put a new Rega RB300 arm on it,
a Rega cartridge and sold me a dust cover and hinges, I'd spent another
$800 on top of my original $300. All I ever did was to take it home,
plug it in and play records. Best $1100 audio investment I ever
made. It has worked flawlessly ever since.

Maybe you just have bad audio equipment karma and just need
to turn off the sound system for a while and spend a little time
in contemplation listening to the cosmic dial tone.

Coolness.

Russ

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On 15 Aug 2005 23:26:22 GMT, "Norman M. Schwartz"
wrote:

"Russ Button" wrote

The LP12, if properly maintained, will last longer than you will.
Heck, there will likely be LP12 tables still running 100 years from
now. Good stuff. Can't go wrong.


What do you consider as proper maintenance, other than seeing to it that
the
springs are properly adjusted, the belt is tight enough, and there is
sufficient oil in the bearing well? My original LP-12 developed a failed
on/off switch and a dead motor. Did you ever have to go in and under the
table to replace the motor? I had to, and restoring all to its original
configuration getting the TT to run at exact speed, is a near
impossibility.
The only solution are the "upgrades" many of which equal the cost of a
brand
new TT. I'd junk the LP-12. I have an older Thorens TD-125 and it still
runs
perfectly, never having to replace anything but the belt; and the speed
is
and can be adjusted to perfection, regardless of seasonal variation in
current demand. To get a Linn LP-12 to do this via the upgrade route
costs
more than the proverbial arm and a leg and I wouldn't be a bit surprised
if
the thing goes to pot in some other way. It appears if you do all the
upgrades you will be left with nothing but the original plinth. Since I
haven't kept up with those upgrades, nor do I need to do so, for all I
know
one might not even be left with the original plinth.

Certainly not, on an older model, as the original Afrormosia plinth
was made with an oily wood which rejects glue over time. As a result,
many of the original plinths literally fell apart!

As others have noted, the best 'upgrade' for a Linn is to dump it on
ebay and buy a properly engineered table, such as a Michell or Rega
(Origin Live is the best modern equivalent of the old Regas).


Note: mine had Afrormosia plinth and never a sign of a problem with Plinth
glue. Don't say it didn't happen; just that Stewart may be overstating the
case. He is hardly impartial on the subject of Linn.

"Russ Button" wrote in message
...
Norman M. Schwartz wrote:
"Russ Button" wrote

The LP12, if properly maintained, will last longer than you will.
Heck, there will likely be LP12 tables still running 100 years from
now. Good stuff. Can't go wrong.


What do you consider as proper maintenance, other than seeing to it that
the springs are properly adjusted, the belt is tight enough, and there is
sufficient oil in the bearing well?

Well I've only owned my LP12 for 18 years. I have to admit that it's
going to take another 82 years to make good on my 100 year claim.

My original LP-12 developed a failed on/off switch and a dead motor. Did
you ever have to go in and under the table to replace the motor?

That's what Linn dealers are for. I bought my table without an arm,
cartridge or dust cover for $300. After I took it to the Linn dealer (in
1987)
who installed the Valhalla upgrade, put a new Rega RB300 arm on it,
a Rega cartridge and sold me a dust cover and hinges, I'd spent another
$800 on top of my original $300. All I ever did was to take it home,
plug it in and play records. Best $1100 audio investment I ever
made. It has worked flawlessly ever since.

A highly regarded high end emporium and Linn dealer where I bought my LP-12
in 1976 did even bother to fill the well with oil. I didn't take it home,
but he delivered it to my house along with many thousands of dollars of
additional audio equipment. The Linn manual is very clear. With a little bit
of manual dexterity and some time one can do a better and more precise
set-up than any dealer is willing or able to do. (The proximity of the motor
to the base plate determines where the belt rides within the ] shaped
bracket beneath the platter. This in turn effects the relative speed
accuracy. The whole contraption stinks.)

Maybe you just have bad audio equipment karma and just need
to turn off the sound system for a while and spend a little time
in contemplation listening to the cosmic dial tone.

No, good equipment (and Thorens TD125) karma, but lousy audio dealer and yet
lousier Linn construction. My TD-125 is about 6 years older than the LP-12
and works perfectly well to this day surviving a move from my previous
residence in tact and as good as new. My LP-12 is the worst audio purchase I
ever made.

On 17 Aug 2005 23:25:47 GMT, "Harry Lavo" wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On 15 Aug 2005 23:26:22 GMT, "Norman M. Schwartz"
wrote:

It appears if you do all the
upgrades you will be left with nothing but the original plinth. Since I
haven't kept up with those upgrades, nor do I need to do so, for all I know
one might not even be left with the original plinth.

Certainly not, on an older model, as the original Afrormosia plinth
was made with an oily wood which rejects glue over time. As a result,
many of the original plinths literally fell apart!

As others have noted, the best 'upgrade' for a Linn is to dump it on
ebay and buy a properly engineered table, such as a Michell or Rega
(Origin Live is the best modern equivalent of the old Regas).

Note: mine had Afrormosia plinth and never a sign of a problem with Plinth
glue. Don't say it didn't happen; just that Stewart may be overstating the
case. He is hardly impartial on the subject of Linn.

Actually not Linn per se (I have quite a few of their CDs), but Ivor
personally. This is why I am especially careful to be factual about
Linn. It's true that I have no respect for that overhyped, poorly
engineered and notoriously warm-sounding turntable, but it's a known
fact that many (not *all* of course) of the original plinths came
apart. Perhaps Harry had a later one with different glue, perhaps it
was pinned and glued, I have no way of knowing.

As noted by others, long-time Linn owners have typically owned the
equivalent of a vintage yard broom - "it's a great broom, I've had it
for sixty years and it's never failed me. Had ten new heads and five
new shafts, but it's never failed me."

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"Norman M. Schwartz" wrote in message
...
"Russ Button" wrote in message
...
Norman M. Schwartz wrote:
"Russ Button" wrote

The LP12, if properly maintained, will last longer than you will.
Heck, there will likely be LP12 tables still running 100 years from
now. Good stuff. Can't go wrong.


What do you consider as proper maintenance, other than seeing to it
that
the springs are properly adjusted, the belt is tight enough, and there
is
sufficient oil in the bearing well?

Well I've only owned my LP12 for 18 years. I have to admit that it's
going to take another 82 years to make good on my 100 year claim.

My original LP-12 developed a failed on/off switch and a dead motor.
Did
you ever have to go in and under the table to replace the motor?

That's what Linn dealers are for. I bought my table without an arm,
cartridge or dust cover for $300. After I took it to the Linn dealer
(in
1987)
who installed the Valhalla upgrade, put a new Rega RB300 arm on it,
a Rega cartridge and sold me a dust cover and hinges, I'd spent another
$800 on top of my original $300. All I ever did was to take it home,
plug it in and play records. Best $1100 audio investment I ever
made. It has worked flawlessly ever since.

A highly regarded high end emporium and Linn dealer where I bought my
LP-12
in 1976 did even bother to fill the well with oil. I didn't take it home,
but he delivered it to my house along with many thousands of dollars of
additional audio equipment. The Linn manual is very clear. With a little
bit
of manual dexterity and some time one can do a better and more precise
set-up than any dealer is willing or able to do. (The proximity of the
motor
to the base plate determines where the belt rides within the ] shaped
bracket beneath the platter. This in turn effects the relative speed
accuracy. The whole contraption stinks.)

Maybe you just have bad audio equipment karma and just need
to turn off the sound system for a while and spend a little time
in contemplation listening to the cosmic dial tone.

No, good equipment (and Thorens TD125) karma, but lousy audio dealer and
yet
lousier Linn construction. My TD-125 is about 6 years older than the LP-12
and works perfectly well to this day surviving a move from my previous
residence in tact and as good as new. My LP-12 is the worst audio purchase
I
ever made.

I bought my Linn in 1980. Used it until last fall, when I sold it as a
downsizing move. Had the setup manual, but only ever had to do it
twice..once after upgrading the Syrinx arm to a later model, and once after
installing a new motor / valhalla card. The much "ballyhooed" setup is
actually quite straight forward and simple if you have any degree of
desterity for such things at all...and once setup, it stayed...through a
total of seven moves. Of course, you have to be smart enough to remove the
platter and cartridge counterweights and not abuse it ... I usually let it
ride along somewhere in the car rather than in the moving truck, but once I
did pack and ship it in the truck).

I really think it is more a matter of the user than the turntable when it
comes to the Linn. If you are strictly an out-of-the-box, push "play"
person you won't be happy. If you are the kind of person who is
mechanically adept, and *likes* to get inside things enough to understand
how to maintain them, it is a piece of cake.

And, for what it's worth, while never up for an AB with the Thorens 125, it
did dust in transparency a Thorens 160 Super which resided in my second
system for many years.

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
...


And, for what it's worth, while never up for an AB with the Thorens 125,
it
did dust in transparency a Thorens 160 Super which resided in my second
system for many years.


I think it's that felt mat which accumulates all that dust which is
responsible for what you heard. I hated that mat having to use double sided
"Scotch" to tape it to the platter or else it would get electrostatically
attracted to LPs and providing a very effective method destroy cantilivers.
Did you use a felt mat on your Thorens (and do Linnies still use felt mats
exclusively)?
I have a presently unused spare dusty one should anyone care for it, and it
should do wonders for the audio.

Seeing a split on yeah/nay, what current turntables would be
contenders to replace this Linn (within a budget of let's say max
$1500 Cdn; this to cover table/arm/cartrdige)?

On 13 Aug 2005 19:10:19 GMT, Monroe wrote:

Looking to upgrade a very old LP12 (c. 1975; original SME 3009 II
tonearm; no upgrades at all). Was considering Cirkus kit alone. I'm
interested in getting back in to my vinyl collection and am looking
for simply a good sound; nothing too extravagant.

How would this upgrade strategy compare to say the purchase of a new
or (better?) used TT? Given the limited Cirkus upgrade, new cartridge
and proper setup, would an upgrade to another TT require a
considerably higher outlay of cash for the same quality of sound? I
see some mint used Rega's kicking about for $1200 - $1500 Cdn. I
suspect that Cirkus + cartrdige + labour will taken me to about the
$1200 region.

Thanks for any and all.

--

Monroe

On 18 Aug 2005 23:28:26 GMT, "Norman M. Schwartz"
wrote:

"Russ Button" wrote in message
...

A highly regarded high end emporium and Linn dealer where I bought my LP-12
in 1976 did even bother to fill the well with oil. I didn't take it home,
but he delivered it to my house along with many thousands of dollars of
additional audio equipment. The Linn manual is very clear. With a little bit
of manual dexterity and some time one can do a better and more precise
set-up than any dealer is willing or able to do. (The proximity of the motor
to the base plate determines where the belt rides within the ] shaped
bracket beneath the platter. This in turn effects the relative speed
accuracy. The whole contraption stinks.)

Maybe you just have bad audio equipment karma and just need
to turn off the sound system for a while and spend a little time
in contemplation listening to the cosmic dial tone.

No, good equipment (and Thorens TD125) karma, but lousy audio dealer and yet
lousier Linn construction. My TD-125 is about 6 years older than the LP-12
and works perfectly well to this day surviving a move from my previous
residence in tact and as good as new. My LP-12 is the worst audio purchase I
ever made.

Agreed about the LP12, and not to rain on your parade, but the biggest
jump in audio performance I ever had was when I traded up my TD125/SME
3009 for a Michell GyroDec with RB300 arm. I'd say it was mostly the
platter/mat that made the difference in the table.

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"Norman M. Schwartz" wrote in message
...
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
...


And, for what it's worth, while never up for an AB with the Thorens 125,
it
did dust in transparency a Thorens 160 Super which resided in my second
system for many years.


I think it's that felt mat which accumulates all that dust which is
responsible for what you heard. I hated that mat having to use double
sided
"Scotch" to tape it to the platter or else it would get electrostatically
attracted to LPs and providing a very effective method destroy
cantilivers.
Did you use a felt mat on your Thorens (and do Linnies still use felt mats
exclusively)?
I have a presently unused spare dusty one should anyone care for it, and
it
should do wonders for the audio.

I also taped my Linn felt mat. I would vacuum it periodically, but it
rarely transferred dust to the records.

On the TD160 Super, I replaced the rubber mat with a Marcoff Glassmat, which
was a thick tempered glass platter with a bonded felt mat on top. The
Marcoff largely eliminated "ringing" that the Thorens was prone to, and
resulted in a "flatter" (in frequency spectrum) sound.

Thought I would query again. No suggestions on a replacement for the
old Linn.

On 19 Aug 2005 22:22:36 GMT, Monroe wrote:

Seeing a split on yeah/nay, what current turntables would be
contenders to replace this Linn (within a budget of let's say max
$1500 Cdn; this to cover table/arm/cartrdige)?

On 13 Aug 2005 19:10:19 GMT, Monroe wrote:

Looking to upgrade a very old LP12 (c. 1975; original SME 3009 II
tonearm; no upgrades at all). Was considering Cirkus kit alone. I'm
interested in getting back in to my vinyl collection and am looking
for simply a good sound; nothing too extravagant.

How would this upgrade strategy compare to say the purchase of a new
or (better?) used TT? Given the limited Cirkus upgrade, new cartridge
and proper setup, would an upgrade to another TT require a
considerably higher outlay of cash for the same quality of sound? I
see some mint used Rega's kicking about for $1200 - $1500 Cdn. I
suspect that Cirkus + cartrdige + labour will taken me to about the
$1200 region.

Thanks for any and all.

--

Monroe