"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 May 2005 21:48:25 GMT, "Margaret von B."
wrote:

Your rooms are large but with low ceilings so
they don't have that much volume. Hmm. What kind of floor/foundation do
you
have?

I'm sure that he's on a slab. Most Florida homes are. He's also got
super-duper framing as well.

I've made the same point about his rooms. The dimensions ratio is
substandard. Of course, he's going to trot out Toole, who thinks that
you can use any ole room any ole time.

I find it rather interesting that Howard claims that the Hsu and the other
cheapish sub he has are as good as it gets and yet his rooms are brimming
with all kinds of bass enhancement devices. One simply has to conclude that
something in his setup really precludes him from testing and rendering
opinions on subwoofers altogether. I should probably invite him to my house
so that he can hear what BASS sounds like. :-)

Cheers,

Margaret

dave weil said of Clerkenstein:

I'm sure that he's on a slab.

Already? I had no idea he'd croaked. Shall we put together a sympathy
package for the Widow F., or is it safe to assume she's hugely relieved at
being able to get rid of Harold's huge toy collection?

Margaret von B. wrote:
"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 May 2005 21:48:25 GMT, "Margaret von B."
wrote:

Your rooms are large but with low ceilings so
they don't have that much volume. Hmm. What kind of
floor/foundation do
you
have?

I'm sure that he's on a slab. Most Florida homes are. He's also got
super-duper framing as well.

I've made the same point about his rooms. The dimensions ratio is
substandard. Of course, he's going to trot out Toole, who thinks
that
you can use any ole room any ole time.

I find it rather interesting that Howard claims that the Hsu and the
other
cheapish sub he has are as good as it gets and yet his rooms are
brimming
with all kinds of bass enhancement devices. One simply has to
conclude that
something in his setup really precludes him from testing and
rendering
opinions on subwoofers altogether. I should probably invite him to my
house
so that he can hear what BASS sounds like. :-)

I have a cheapo Hsu VTF-2, I think it does a very nice job down to 30
Hz or so. I'm sure there are more expensive subs that can go deeper
but my 2nd story room doesn't accomodate deep bass well IMO so anything
more is a bit of a waste for me.

ScottW

ScottW wrote:
Margaret von B. wrote:
"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 May 2005 21:48:25 GMT, "Margaret von B."
wrote:

Your rooms are large but with low ceilings so
they don't have that much volume. Hmm. What kind of
floor/foundation do
you
have?

I'm sure that he's on a slab. Most Florida homes are. He's also
got
super-duper framing as well.

I've made the same point about his rooms. The dimensions ratio is
substandard. Of course, he's going to trot out Toole, who thinks
that
you can use any ole room any ole time.

I find it rather interesting that Howard claims that the Hsu and
the
other
cheapish sub he has are as good as it gets and yet his rooms are
brimming
with all kinds of bass enhancement devices. One simply has to
conclude that
something in his setup really precludes him from testing and
rendering
opinions on subwoofers altogether. I should probably invite him to
my
house
so that he can hear what BASS sounds like. :-)

I have a cheapo Hsu VTF-2, I think it does a very nice job down to
30
Hz or so. I'm sure there are more expensive subs that can go deeper
but my 2nd story room doesn't accomodate deep bass well IMO so
anything
more is a bit of a waste for me.

ScottW




Are you using it with the Quads?



Scott Wheeler

"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...


dave weil said of Clerkenstein:

I'm sure that he's on a slab.

Already? I had no idea he'd croaked. Shall we put together a sympathy
package for the Widow F., or is it safe to assume she's hugely relieved at
being able to get rid of Harold's huge toy collection?

Not necessary.
Whispers say she's planning to make Howard himself an "in-wall"
installation.

"Margaret von B." wrote in message
...
I thought it might be a good time for everyone to take a break from the
usual mudslinging and help your fellow RAO members to understand where your
audio opinions come from and what you are all about by detailing your
audio/video setup. Of course it won't answer all the questions but it
should be fun if nothing else. Please feel free to elaborate on the
room/system and your musical preferences as well as the overall place of
the hobby in your life.

Cheers,

Margaret


I would answer thusly:

Amplification: Technics SADX1040, Marantz 1060
Processors: Burwen 1201A, KLH TNE7000, Behringher MDX-1400, TEAC AN-80 (2),
Dbx 224, Technics SH8057,Audio Control 101
Speakers: BIC Venturi DV736 (4) Advent BabyII (2) Centers, DIY 8" 2way
Acoustic Suspension
Wires: #12 Underground 12V lighting cables, Connections are simple banana
plugs from surplus electronics place both at amp and speaker end.
Sub: DIY 15" 400w Dual 3" ported (2)
Tape: Akai GX747dbx, Akai GX646, Akai GX-630DB dolby, Tascam 424 mkIII 4
track Cassette dbx, Sony TCK615S Dolby S, Sony TCWE805S Dolby S (2) TEAC
CX350, TEAC CX351
CD: Sony CDPCE505, Pioneer PDR509
DVD: Polariod D500 (?)
TV: Sony Wega 32
VCR: JVC s-VHS HiFi (2) with black box interface and editor
Digital Tape: Tascam DA20MkII, Sony DTC-700 with synch controller
Digital patch: Hosa RCA cable, except 20' Toslink to extigy soundcard
Patching: Fostex 3010 (4) with TEAC and Hosa Patch
Interconnect: All Hosa pro audio
Turntable: Pioneer PL-L1000 with 60lb granite block supported with 4 gel
type computer arm rests on Stainless Steel DIY stand
Cartridge: Shure M97xE (2) Shure V15 VMR, Audio Technica ML441 (2), Audio
Technica 3482(2), Grado Gold
Headshells: Stanton HS-4
Record clamp: DIY brass billett

Music: 2400 cataloged CD and Tape approx 50 open reel, 140 cassette (all
oem) approx 1200 LP not yet cataloged (these will be recorded to DAT or CD)
approx 600 LP that are permanent collection cataloged but not yet played or
recorded
Most is classical dating from about 1950 to about 1990. I have stopped
collecting music because I have so much to listen to now that I don't have
time for. I purchase maybe 2 or 3 CD's a month now including my subscription
to BBC MM

Video: Approx 250 Tape, 10 DVD all oem

Computer: Sony VAIO extigy usb, blah blah blah

Room 20x25 combined home office, computer and sound, two black leather
recliners two black couches, wood floor plaster wall 9 foot ceiling. Brick
double construction with 18" thick wall. Is a two storey tudor style built
in 1928. Massive constuction and 3 pane window you can't hear outside even
when running at 115 in the room. Average listening level is however about 85

Weak Link: I am having a problem with the subwoofers rattle the media file
cabinets and the windows. Also computer noise in the room because the VAIO
has two external hard drives. (They can be shut down) I also have a great
deal of elctronic noise in the room possibly from the two 20" monitors, the
ASDL modem and all the other telephone and dictaphone systems i use. It
could be shut down but then it all has to be restarted. The other problem is
heat in the room.

Special Features: 4 ektagraphic slide projectors running off a dedicated
tape machine with full dissolve built into the wall. Has a remote screen
that completely covers the wall at the tv end of the room. This system is to
be augmented witha LCD projection system if i ever get around to getting all
my slides scanned. Audio and video also feed downstairs along with remote
control to a sony 24" wega and a 5.1 system built in to the den on the first
floor. There is also a computer link to the den but multi-media is not
networked yet.

Projects: I am working on conversion of audio to mp3 using itunes, approx
300 cd's so far. I have no plans to convert LP to digital however as it just
takes too much time. I use itunes as a music server when we entertain.

Sorry for the log post but you asked....

Carl Valle

"Margaret von B." wrote:

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...

Conventional speakers (mains, centers, and surrounds):

Allison IC-20, Model Four, and AV-1 loudspeakers (main
system), custom-made, 8-driver center-channel speaker (main
system), Dunlavy Cantata, Allison Model Four, custom-built
surround, and NHT VS-1.2 loudspeakers (second system), NHT
ST4 and SC1 and Atlantic Technology T70 loudspeakers (third
system).

Hmmm. Would this be 5.1, 7.1 and 5.1 systems? Wow!

Actually, the main system has three standard speakers across
the front, plus four surrounds, each located on the side
walls. All four surrounds are Allison Model Fours, with the
front pair acting as front "effects" speakers (Yamaha style)
and the other pair acting as standard side/rear surrounds.
There are also two AV-1 minispeakers on the back wall,
acting as "back" surrounds. This system uses a Velodyne
F1800 for the main and LFE bass, with a modified (by me) SVS
16-46 sub to handle just the center-channel bass. This
system uses the RX-Z1 receiver, but main amplifier power
(for the Allison IC-20 mains) comes from a vintage Carver
M500.

The middle system has much the same thing in terms of
channel layout. There are three speakers up front for L, C,
and R duty (Dunlavy Cantatas, with an NHT VS1.2 handling the
center), with two front "effects" flankers above and
outboard of them. Those are little Radio Shack minimonitors
that I modified by installing Allison tweeters and Allison
two-way crossovers. There are also two more Allison Model
Four systems working as side/rear surrounds. There are no
back surround speakers in this system, which still has seven
channels. This system uses a Hsu TN1220 for the low bass,
and has a Yamaha DSP-A1 processor amp to deal with power and
control issues.

The living room system is the only 5.1 package, mainly
because there is no way to set up front "effects" speakers
in that L-shaped room. The mains are NHT ST4 units, with the
center being a matching SC1. The surrounds are Atlantic
Technology T-70 minispeakers. A vintage Yamaha DSP-A3090
processor amp is in control.

Subwoofers, installed in various systems or as reference
units for reviewing work:

Velodyne F1800RII and FSR-12; Hsu TN1220HO, VTF-2, and
STF-1; SVS 16-46PC (modified by author).

Electronics and accessories (some used for reference work
only:

Yamaha RX-Z1 A/V receiver, Yamaha DSP-A1 and DSP-A3090
processor/amps; Carver M-500, AudioSource Amp One power
amps; Onkyo DV-S939 DVD/DVD-A player, Panasonic DVD-A120
player, cheap JVC player, Pioneer, DVD-700 DVD/LD player and
CLD-D503 combi player; AudioControl Phase Coupled Activator
bass synthesizer (includes Linkwitz-Riley crossover);
Paradigm X-30 electronic crossover; Rane THX-44, THX-22 and
AudioControl C-131 equalizers; dbx 120 subharmonic bass
synthesizer, dbx 3BX expander; Memorex 45-inch rear
projection, Sharp XV-H37 LCD front-projection, and Sony
KV-32T TV monitors; Carol Wire Company 12 AWG and standard
12 AWG outdoor low-voltage wire for speakers; Radio-Shack
"Gold" interconnects (most custom sized to minimum required
lengths).

Room Length/Width/Height:

Main: 18.5 x 22 x 8.5.
Second: 17 x 22 x 8.
Third: 16 x 18 x 12 x 10 x 6 x 6 (L shaped).

You seem to have lots of stuff geared toward synthesizing and managing bass.

Yep. Actually, my crossover situation makes use of the
on-board circuits in the Yamaha processors.

Something like the custom system in my Navigator, AudioControl this and
AudioControl that. :-) Do you constantly tweak it or do you just leave it
where it is?

The dbx and AudioControl synthesizers are rarely used these
days. They are in the analog tape-monitor loops, so they
cannot be used with DVD movies or with DVD-A, SACD, DTS, or
DD audio recordings. They are also no good for classical CD
recordings, or acoustic music recordings of any kind. The
processing makes a mess of things. They do work OK with CD
pop material (at least some of it), and they can be used
with my analog-sound laserdiscs.

I recommend a Tact as a much more sophisticated alternative.
You should test one some time. Your rooms are large but with low ceilings so
they don't have that much volume.

The main room is 3,400 cubic feet. The middle room has
2,900. The living room is about 2000.

Hmm. What kind of floor/foundation do you
have?

All rooms are on a concrete slab. The main room has very
thick carpeting, as does the middle-system room. The living
room has oak flooring over the slab (most of the rest of the
house has that, too), but there is a large, wool area rug in
there.

Second room is also a gym, computer room, and guest bedroom.

Does your gym turn into a "wind chime" when you *really* play loud?

Not really. The gym set is a Parabody 350 and pretty dense,
and there is also an elliptical trainer. They are at the far
end of the room, away from the AV system, and there is a
double bed between them. The room is surprisingly well
damped. Actually, the area between the listening chairs and
the speakers is carpeted (the whole room is carpeted,
actually), but there is also a thick wool rug on top of the
carpeting. You can watch TV nicely when using the
elliptical.

Third room also contains a grand piano.

Nice. What kind?

Baldwin, 5'2".

Music Preferences:

Baroque and classical. The wife likes big-band jazz and
broadway show material. Occasionally, I will listen to
something as radical as Dire Straits or Enya.

Radical as...Heh! I guess there's still hope even for you. :-)

The Weakest Link:

The TV monitors. Old.

I thought Memorex made tape!?! The new Qualia projector is unbeatable, check
it out!

The Memorex was actually built by Mitsubishi. It is one of
their old 458 models that was rebadged. Memorex contracted
with the company to build scads of sets a decade or more
back. It is actually a pretty good set for something 15
years old, but I really would like to get a wide-screen HDTV
set. Unfortunately, the wife is 100% satisfied with the old
Memorex, and she calls the shots when it comes to spending
big bucks. The damned thing refuses to break.

Howard Ferstler

dave weil wrote:

On Sun, 22 May 2005 21:48:25 GMT, "Margaret von B."
wrote:

Your rooms are large but with low ceilings so
they don't have that much volume. Hmm. What kind of floor/foundation do you
have?

I'm sure that he's on a slab. Most Florida homes are. He's also got
super-duper framing as well.

I've made the same point about his rooms. The dimensions ratio is
substandard. Of course, he's going to trot out Toole, who thinks that
you can use any ole room any ole time.

Within reason. The bottom line is that I have mapped the
standing-wave situation with my RTA and things are not all
that bad. A bit of a peak at 100-125 Hz, and another at 50
Hz. I have written about the 50-Hz lump in some of my
articles. Depending on how the framing that surrounds a room
flexes, standing-wave artifacts may be no big deal.

Howard Ferstler

"Margaret von B." wrote:

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 May 2005 21:48:25 GMT, "Margaret von B."
wrote:

Your rooms are large but with low ceilings so
they don't have that much volume. Hmm. What kind of floor/foundation do
you
have?

I'm sure that he's on a slab. Most Florida homes are. He's also got
super-duper framing as well.

I've made the same point about his rooms. The dimensions ratio is
substandard. Of course, he's going to trot out Toole, who thinks that
you can use any ole room any ole time.

I find it rather interesting that Howard claims that the Hsu and the other
cheapish sub he has are as good as it gets and yet his rooms are brimming
with all kinds of bass enhancement devices.

I rarely use the synthesizers, for reasons that I have
explained elsewhere. As for the Hsu (and SVS) subs being
cheap, I have compared them pretty closely to both of my
servo Velodyne models and they hold up very well with test
tones and are functionally equal with musical and movie
material. I recently compared a $300 Hsu to another brand
that listed for $850 and the Hsu mopped up the floor with it
when comparing tones between 40 and 25 Hz. With musical
sources the differences were less apparent.

One simply has to conclude that
something in his setup really precludes him from testing and rendering
opinions on subwoofers altogether.

Perhaps you should read some of my subwoofer reviews before
jumping to this conclusion.

I should probably invite him to my house
so that he can hear what BASS sounds like. :-)

I doubt if you can surpass the extremely clean bass
performance of that F1800RII of mine, right down to 20 Hz. I
have compared it to some sensational stuff, and while the
musical performance of some of them matched the servo, with
test tones the Velodyne always came out ahead, if only
slightly at times. Actually, my modified (by me) SVS 16-46
can generate wall-rattling (and clean) sound right down to
17 Hz.

Actually, I have done some very close comparing of several
Hsu subs to those Velodynes and the result was that the Hsu
units were a near match, at least down to the point where
the Hsu subs started to roll off. (In this case, I am
referring to the STF-1 and VTF-2 models, both of which I
have reviewed for The Sensible Sound.) I also recently
reviewed an upscale SVS unit that held its own with the best
I had on hand.

Howard Ferstler

ScottW wrote:

I have a cheapo Hsu VTF-2, I think it does a very nice job down to 30
Hz or so.

Yes. In a head to head against a Velodyne servo FSR-12 that
I use in my living room system the Hsu was able to match the
Velodyne even with clean test tones down to 25 Hz. Below 25
Hz the Hsu rolled off cleanly, while the Velodyne was solid
down to 20 Hz. With music the two simply sounded alike with
all but the most bass-deep pipe-organ material.

The VTF-2 (which I reviewed in issue 88 of The Sensible
Sound back in 2001) is a remarkable unit for the price the
company asks. Another good unit is the SVS 25-31. I reviewed
both the standard and extended-bass versions and found them
to be a match for the VTF-2, with the ability to play a bit
louder down low. Of course, the SVS is considerably larger,
with a larger driver, than the Hsu sub. No substitute for
size with ported subwoofers.

I'm sure there are more expensive subs that can go deeper
but my 2nd story room doesn't accomodate deep bass well IMO so anything
more is a bit of a waste for me.

With 95% (or more) of the music and movie materials out
there the VTF-2 will do as well as any other sub, at least
if huge output levels are not required.

Howard Ferstler

ScottW

"George M. Middius" wrote:

dave weil said of Clerkenstein:

I'm sure that he's on a slab.

Already? I had no idea he'd croaked. Shall we put together a sympathy
package for the Widow F., or is it safe to assume she's hugely relieved at
being able to get rid of Harold's huge toy collection?

George, this one was funny.

Howard (Still Alive) Ferstler

On Fri, 27 May 2005 16:32:06 -0400, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

The bottom line is that I have mapped the
standing-wave situation with my RTA and things are not all
that bad.

Nothing wrong with "not all that bad".

On Fri, 27 May 2005 16:39:02 -0400, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

I rarely use the synthesizers, for reasons that I have
explained elsewhere. As for the Hsu (and SVS) subs being
cheap, I have compared them pretty closely to both of my
servo Velodyne models and they hold up very well with test
tones and are functionally equal with musical and movie
material.

Then no need to buy the "overpriced" Velodyne.

I hope that you made that point during reviews.

On Fri, 27 May 2005 16:46:16 -0400, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

"George M. Middius" wrote:

dave weil said of Clerkenstein:

I'm sure that he's on a slab.

Already? I had no idea he'd croaked. Shall we put together a sympathy
package for the Widow F., or is it safe to assume she's hugely relieved at
being able to get rid of Harold's huge toy collection?

George, this one was funny.

Howard (Still Alive) Ferstler

Congrats! (seriously)

I'm pleased that my PSA was normal a few months back and that the
colonoscopy that I had this week only showed a couple of small polyps,
whcih were immediately excised. Looks like my colon is good for a
while, which is convenient for me.

BTW, to those who are anticipating THEIR colonoscopies, let me say
that it's absolutely no big deal. At all. Very benign all in all.
Well, that's assuming that you don't get any bad news, but there's
nothing gained by avoidance, right?

dave weil wrote:

On Fri, 27 May 2005 16:39:02 -0400, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

I rarely use the synthesizers, for reasons that I have
explained elsewhere. As for the Hsu (and SVS) subs being
cheap, I have compared them pretty closely to both of my
servo Velodyne models and they hold up very well with test
tones and are functionally equal with musical and movie
material.

Then no need to buy the "overpriced" Velodyne.

I hope that you made that point during reviews.

Go read them and see what you think. The F1800RII and FSR-12
reviews appeared in issue 67 of TSS, right along with the
review of the Hsu TN1220. A review of the Velodyne servo
HGS-15 appeared in volume 6, issue 4 of The Audiophile Voice
and a review of the the company's HGS-12 appeared in issue
80 of TSS. Reviews of the Hsu VTF-3 appeared in volume 8,
issue 4 of TAV, a review of the VTF-2 appeared in issue 88
of TSS, and a review of the Hsu STF-1 appeared in issue 100.
A reviews of the SVS 16-46 appeared in issue 88, a review of
the SVS 25-31 appeared in issue 94, and the company's PC
Ultra system appeared in issue 102. For the record, a review
of Paradigm's Servo 15 sub appeared in issue 71 of TSS, a
review of the NHT Evolution sub pair appeared volume 8,
issue 5 of TAV, a review of the Waveform MC sub pair
appeared in issue 84 of TSS, and a review of a B&W Subwoofer
2000 appeared in issue 73.

Those are some of the subs I have reviewed here and there
(there are others, but they are inconsequential in this
case), so all you have to do is read the reports and see
what I say about Velodyne performance in comparison to the
competition. I often compare and mention various points.

Howard Ferstler

dave weil wrote:

On Fri, 27 May 2005 16:46:16 -0400, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

"George M. Middius" wrote:

dave weil said of Clerkenstein:

I'm sure that he's on a slab.

Already? I had no idea he'd croaked. Shall we put together a sympathy
package for the Widow F., or is it safe to assume she's hugely relieved at
being able to get rid of Harold's huge toy collection?

George, this one was funny.

Howard (Still Alive) Ferstler

Congrats! (seriously)

I'm pleased that my PSA was normal a few months back and that the
colonoscopy that I had this week only showed a couple of small polyps,
whcih were immediately excised. Looks like my colon is good for a
while, which is convenient for me.

BTW, to those who are anticipating THEIR colonoscopies, let me say
that it's absolutely no big deal. At all. Very benign all in all.
Well, that's assuming that you don't get any bad news, but there's
nothing gained by avoidance, right?

I have had three of them. No big deal, as you stated,
although the discomfort has been different with each. Mostly
like gas cramps.

Congrats on the PSA score.

Howard Ferstler

Brother Horace the Wistfully Persistent said:

I'm sure that he's on a slab.

Already? I had no idea he'd croaked. Shall we put together a sympathy
package for the Widow F., or is it safe to assume she's hugely relieved at
being able to get rid of Harold's huge toy collection?

George, this one was funny.

So the account was greatly exaggerated. Well, there's still a place for you
in the nether regions, Harold.

"George M. Middius" wrote in message

So the account was greatly exaggerated. Well, there's still a place for
you
in the nether regions, Harold.

Twisted his mind has become. Deep in him does the Dark Side run.

Btw, you never told us what your snake oil setup is. ;-)

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...
"Margaret von B." wrote:

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 May 2005 21:48:25 GMT, "Margaret von B."
wrote:


snipped


One simply has to conclude that
something in his setup really precludes him from testing and rendering
opinions on subwoofers altogether.

Perhaps you should read some of my subwoofer reviews before
jumping to this conclusion.


I have.

I should probably invite him to my house
so that he can hear what BASS sounds like. :-)

I doubt if you can surpass the extremely clean bass
performance of that F1800RII of mine, right down to 20 Hz. I
have compared it to some sensational stuff, and while the
musical performance of some of them matched the servo, with
test tones the Velodyne always came out ahead, if only
slightly at times. Actually, my modified (by me) SVS 16-46
can generate wall-rattling (and clean) sound right down to
17 Hz.


I don't have the model you have, but I have a HGS (?) - 18 outdoors in my
loggia/pool area that we could drag in (120 lbs ?) for comparison. :-)
In its present location, Hsu need not apply...

Enjoy your "break"!


Cheers,

Margaret

On Fri, 27 May 2005 17:14:00 -0400, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

Those are some of the subs I have reviewed here and there
(there are others, but they are inconsequential in this
case), so all you have to do is read the reports and see
what I say about Velodyne performance in comparison to the
competition. I often compare and mention various points.

I've read at least one of your Velodyne reviews in the past I don't
remember yu recommending that someone not buy them because they are
overpriced vis a vis an "identically sounding" sub $500 subwoofer.
Maybe you could quote such a passage.

On Fri, 27 May 2005 17:16:38 -0400, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:

I'm pleased that my PSA was normal a few months back and that the
colonoscopy that I had this week only showed a couple of small polyps,
whcih were immediately excised. Looks like my colon is good for a
while, which is convenient for me.

BTW, to those who are anticipating THEIR colonoscopies, let me say
that it's absolutely no big deal. At all. Very benign all in all.
Well, that's assuming that you don't get any bad news, but there's
nothing gained by avoidance, right?

I have had three of them. No big deal, as you stated,
although the discomfort has been different with each. Mostly
like gas cramps.

I had absolutely nothing like that. The hardest part was the liquid
diet for the prior 2 days and the session with the Go-lightly the day
before, although it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be.

I got real fond of apple juice, I'll tell you.

Congrats on the PSA score.

Thanks. I don't even know what I scored, but apparently it was cool.

dave weil wrote:

On Fri, 27 May 2005 17:16:38 -0400, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:

I have had three of them. No big deal, as you stated,
although the discomfort has been different with each. Mostly
like gas cramps.

I had absolutely nothing like that. The hardest part was the liquid
diet for the prior 2 days and the session with the Go-lightly the day
before, although it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be.

Yeah, the Go-Litely is the worst part. Yuk. Now they have
something called Nu-Litely, and basically that is flavored
Go-Litely. Still yuk.

Actually, for my first session (over 15 years ago) there was
little discomfort, other than some gas pressure at times. (A
word to the doctor and he would back off the pressure or
ramp up the anti-spasm medication being fed into the arm.)
They need to build up that pressure somewhat, so that the
colon expands enough for them to examine with the camera
probe. The second session was more uncomfortable, possibly
because I was older. The third had some serious discomfort
at times. Still, it was preferable to getting a dental
crown.

I know of people who had problems to the extent with their
first session that they opted to be anesthetized completely
for the next one. They said it hurt like hell. My take on
this is that going completely under is risky, because one
way you can tell the doctor that he is generating too much
potentially damaging pressure is to be awake when the test
is taking place. You are his best damage-prevention tool.

Congrats on the PSA score.

Thanks. I don't even know what I scored, but apparently it was cool.

Find out. Sometimes the info slips into a folder and is not
acted upon. Mistakes happen. Once you have the score, check
some of the prostate-cancer web sites to see if your score
means anything.

Mine was 4.3, and at that time anything above 4 should have
resulted in a trip to a urologist for an expert "digital"
exam (they do a better job of the finger work than your
typical GP) and possibly a biopsy. That is exactly what
happened in my case. Note that my PSA number was borderline
(some readings go as high as 20, or even considerably
higher), and yet the biopsy showed me to have a Gleason
reading that put me into the middle of the cancer-is-there
pack and not in serious trouble. Note also that a high PSA
score does not mean you have cancer. It only means that you
need to get some followup checking done.

Any PSA score above 1 should require retesting at frequent
intervals, by the way. Note that my last test resulted in a
reading of .001 (the residual lower limit of the test
system), which is what it should be after surgery or
radiation.

With prostate cancer, there are a number of treatment
options, with surgery and radiation being the two given to
me. Another is watchful waiting, to see if the PSA and
Gleason numbers go upward, but that is really risky business
in my opinion. Nip the disease in the bud.

I opted for surgery, simply because it has a longer cure
record than radiation, and surgery also allows for biopsies
to be performed on the lymph nodes. (Mine were clean.) Also,
if radiation fails you cannot then opt for surgery, with
chemotherapy being the only other choice. The gland is too
disfigured to extract. However, if surgery fails you can
then opt for both radiation and chemotherapy.

Well, hopefully you are clean and the above discussion is
all academic.

Howard Ferstler

dave weil wrote:

On Fri, 27 May 2005 17:14:00 -0400, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

Those are some of the subs I have reviewed here and there
(there are others, but they are inconsequential in this
case), so all you have to do is read the reports and see
what I say about Velodyne performance in comparison to the
competition. I often compare and mention various points.

I've read at least one of your Velodyne reviews in the past I don't
remember yu recommending that someone not buy them because they are
overpriced vis a vis an "identically sounding" sub $500 subwoofer.
Maybe you could quote such a passage.

I have also reviewed a few non-servo Velodyne models, two of
which (both bass-reflex jobs) were not even made in the USA.
I found them to be so-so, and not really as good as
comparably priced (or even lower priced) Hsu and SVS models.
I think that all of those Velodynes are now out of
production. I have recently reviewed some subs from
mainstream speaker companies that were clearly inferior to
various Hsu and SVS models that cost the same or less, and I
said so in the reviews.

In any case, I have stated in some of my subwoofer reviews
(both of Velodyne subs and the competition) that while the
Velodyne servo subs had outstandingly low distortion (subtly
audible with test-tone signals), that edge of theirs did not
really matter when musical source material is considered.
However, some purists might just like to have a subwoofer
with distortion levels only a fraction of what some Hsu and
SVS versions exhibit, and lower than just about anything
else, too, at any price. For them, the price of the servo
versions is justified. At least the differences are real and
not imaginary, even if they only show up with test tones.

Howard Ferstler

"Margaret von B." wrote:

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...

I doubt if you can surpass the extremely clean bass
performance of that F1800RII of mine, right down to 20 Hz. I
have compared it to some sensational stuff, and while the
musical performance of some of them matched the servo, with
test tones the Velodyne always came out ahead, if only
slightly at times. Actually, my modified (by me) SVS 16-46
can generate wall-rattling (and clean) sound right down to
17 Hz.

I don't have the model you have, but I have a HGS (?) - 18 outdoors in my
loggia/pool area that we could drag in (120 lbs ?) for comparison. :-)
In its present location, Hsu need not apply...

I am not sure what those question marks mean, but the first
HGS-18 was similar in design to the F1800RII. The HGS
version had a different cone and a different (probably more
durable) surround, and it also had a more powerful amp. (I
am not sure what the later HGS-18 Series 2 had, but the
latest Digital Drive, DD-18 version incorporates a built-in
parametric equalizer.) The amp power increase was
unimportant, because the servo would not let the sub play
significantly louder than the lower-powered F1800 version.
The bigger amp was just part of a "more horsepower" PR
campaign, probably against Sunfire.

I reviewed an HGS-15 a while back and did a close AB
comparison between it and the F1800. With either test tones
or music there was no difference up to fairly high levels. I
also compared the F1800 to the FSR-12, which is also a servo
unit, but with an older-design driver, and they sounded the
same. An HGS-12 I also reviewed was in the same performance
league, at least up to its max-output point.

OK, I also did comparisons between the Hsu TN1220 and the
SVS 20-39 Ultra and found them to be essentially equal
performers down to 20 Hz. Below that, both were bettered by
my own extensively modified SVS 16-46 unit. (A beta-tested,
mega-driver and some enclosure modifications that I
documented in a TSS article a while back.) Against the
F1800RII, those subs fell a tad behind with test-tone
inputs, but only at really high levels. As far as smooth
output is concerned, all three of the unmodified units had
similar extension, with my modified 16-46 outpointing them
all below 20 Hz and down to 17 Hz. (I consider this to be an
insignificant advantage.) A Hsu VTF-3 I reviewed a while
back was in the same category as these other subs at
moderate levels, but it did exhibit more port noise than I
would like at higher levels. It was the equal of the
unmodified SVS 16-46 before I worked the latter unit over,
however.

In a direct face off between that $1300 FSR-12 Velodyne and
a $500 Hsu VTF-2 I reviewed a while back, they were equal at
reasonable levels even with test tones down to 25 Hz, with
the Velodyne pulling ahead below that frequency. The Hsu did
not distort significantly, but its output fell off below 25
Hz. The Velodyne's did not. Recently, I reviewed a Hsu $300
STF-1 sub for TSS (his smallest model) and it held its own
against the VTF-2 down to 30 Hz. I will assume that it could
hold its own down to that frequency against any of the other
subs I have discussed, at least up to reasonable output
levels. Actually, the little Hsu sub has mopped up the floor
with several $500-$600 class subs I have been fooling with
lately.

The fact is that you can get killer bass response these days
from subs that cost less than a grand or maybe a tad more.
Yes, the Velodynes are very nice and they do have audibly
cleaner outputs at fairly high levels with test tones. But
with music this is nearly always just no big deal. Guys like
you (and maybe even me) will want the Velodyne edge, just
because it is nice to know that the reproduction is so
clean, but we could get along just a well with subs that
cost considerably less.

I will admit that the DD Velodynes do have those built-in
equalizers, and those could be of use. Ironically, the SVS
20-39 Ultra sub I reviewed a while back for TSS also had a
parametric equalizer built in, although it was only a
single-band job. Properly used, such equalization can come
in handy. I rated the SVS highly because of this, although
if you have an outboard equalizer that can also handle a sub
(I have a Rane THX-44), the need for one attached to the sub
is eliminated.

Howard Ferstler

On Tue, 31 May 2005 13:24:46 -0400, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

In any case, I have stated in some of my subwoofer reviews
(both of Velodyne subs and the competition) that while the
Velodyne servo subs had outstandingly low distortion (subtly
audible with test-tone signals), that edge of theirs did not
really matter when musical source material is considered.
However, some purists might just like to have a subwoofer
with distortion levels only a fraction of what some Hsu and
SVS versions exhibit, and lower than just about anything
else, too, at any price. For them, the price of the servo
versions is justified.

Hmmmm, sounds like someone who might want to spend $50,000 on a pair
of Wilson speakers. After all, it's 100% certain that they sound
"different" than, say a pair of IC-20s, or any other speaker system,
for that matter. Or that a purist might want to spend $10,000 on an
amp because of some differences that might show up on a test sheet? I
guess you're now saying that it's OK to exhibit such behavior.
Congratuations on moving forward, Howard. I think that you're starting
to 'get it".

At least the differences are real and
not imaginary, even if they only show up with test tones.

If they only show up with test tones, what does it matter? Isn't your
point that someone shouldn't spend a grand for differences that "don't
matter"? Shouldn't they be spending their money on CDs or something?
Or are you excusing paying for "overkill" products because YOU likely
didn't spend an "overkill" price on them? Would you give, say Audio
Note, a pass if they sold you an amp for $300?

On Tue, 31 May 2005 13:47:50 -0400, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

Ironically, the SVS
20-39 Ultra sub I reviewed a while back for TSS also had a
parametric equalizer built in, although it was only a
single-band job.

Wouldn't a single band cover the entire low bass range? If so, why
would you need another band?

dave weil wrote:

On Tue, 31 May 2005 13:24:46 -0400, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

In any case, I have stated in some of my subwoofer reviews
(both of Velodyne subs and the competition) that while the
Velodyne servo subs had outstandingly low distortion (subtly
audible with test-tone signals), that edge of theirs did not
really matter when musical source material is considered.
However, some purists might just like to have a subwoofer
with distortion levels only a fraction of what some Hsu and
SVS versions exhibit, and lower than just about anything
else, too, at any price. For them, the price of the servo
versions is justified.

Hmmmm, sounds like someone who might want to spend $50,000 on a pair
of Wilson speakers. After all, it's 100% certain that they sound
"different" than, say a pair of IC-20s, or any other speaker system,
for that matter.

Well, they certainly should sound different, although that
does not mean they would sound better. I believe that a pair
of Wilson WATT speakers were once evaluated via the
facilities at the Canadian NRC, and they generated a rather
poor response curve. Now, those curves are not everything,
but one would think that a speaker as expensive and
supposedly as superior as the WATT could at least produce a
respectable curve, its other supposedly superior attributes
notwithstanding.

Or that a purist might want to spend $10,000 on an
amp because of some differences that might show up on a test sheet?

In this case, the only differences I could see happening
would be that the ten-grand amp would measure inferior to
something costing a lot less. Even with decent performance
from the upscale job, we are talking about differences that
are a lot smaller than what we have with those various
subwoofers - even servo jobs. Remember, in the latter case
we might hear differences with test tones (might, remember),
but not with music, whereas with the amp situation no
differences would be audible even with test tones.

I
guess you're now saying that it's OK to exhibit such behavior.
Congratuations on moving forward, Howard. I think that you're starting
to 'get it".

Far be it for me to condemn people for being stupid. (That's
a joke.) However, my point as it relates to audio is that
the attitude has resulted in the hobby turning into a
pastime for true-believing nitwits. The entire enterprise
has been damaged.

At least the differences are real and
not imaginary, even if they only show up with test tones.

If they only show up with test tones, what does it matter?

Not to me, it doesn't. However, it might to some people. I
point that out in my subwoofer reviews. I do head-to-head
comparisons with those as a matter of policy, and the
conclusions are made very clear.

Isn't your
point that someone shouldn't spend a grand for differences that "don't
matter"?

Well, with subwoofers we are at best hair splitting. With
amps we are entering the realm of goofyland.

Shouldn't they be spending their money on CDs or something?

Given the money they would save by not purchasing one of
those overhyped Wilson systems (remember, some models cost
more than a hundred grand), they could purchase a new,
upscale car, or even a cheap house.

Or are you excusing paying for "overkill" products because YOU likely
didn't spend an "overkill" price on them?

Sure. If you can get an upscale product by means of a real
deal, then go for it. However, if you can get something as
good for considerably less I would go for that instead. I
did get a hell of a deal with that F1800RII sub (and the
FSR-12, too) after I did the reviewing work, but at that
time I had no subwoofer at all and wanted one. Later on
(only a week later, actually) I encountered that Hsu TN1220
and quickly realized that I would have been as happy with it
as I was with the Velodyne, and could have gotten it for
considerably less. If you read my review of the Hsu unit you
will see that I lauded it as a practical-performance equal
of the big Velodyne.

Regarding me purchasing something so upscale, it is a good
idea for a product reviewer to have some reference standards
to go by (not in every category, but at least in some), and
so the Velodyne models have served well in that context.

Would you give, say Audio
Note, a pass if they sold you an amp for $300?

I have no idea, since I am not familiar with the product.

Howard Ferstler

dave weil wrote:

On Tue, 31 May 2005 13:47:50 -0400, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

Ironically, the SVS
20-39 Ultra sub I reviewed a while back for TSS also had a
parametric equalizer built in, although it was only a
single-band job.

Wouldn't a single band cover the entire low bass range? If so, why
would you need another band?

The SVS unit's single-band equalizer was fully adjustable as
to center frequency (anywhere from 20 to 80 Hz), degree of
cut (it could only cut, not boost), and Q (width of
corrected range). It was designed to flatten out the primary
resonant peak. The Velodyne DD models have multi-band
parametric equalizers built in, for serious fine tuning the
response curve. The outboard Rane THX-44 equalizer that I
use (and which I have also reviewed) has a two-band
parametric for the subwoofer channel between 20 and 80 Hz,
in addition to combination graphic and parametric
equalization for the three front channels above 80 Hz.

Howard Ferstler

On Tue, 31 May 2005 14:37:38 -0400, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

dave weil wrote:

On Tue, 31 May 2005 13:47:50 -0400, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

Ironically, the SVS
20-39 Ultra sub I reviewed a while back for TSS also had a
parametric equalizer built in, although it was only a
single-band job.

Wouldn't a single band cover the entire low bass range? If so, why
would you need another band?

The SVS unit's single-band equalizer was fully adjustable as
to center frequency (anywhere from 20 to 80 Hz), degree of
cut (it could only cut, not boost), and Q (width of
corrected range). It was designed to flatten out the primary
resonant peak. The Velodyne DD models have multi-band
parametric equalizers built in, for serious fine tuning the
response curve. The outboard Rane THX-44 equalizer that I
use (and which I have also reviewed) has a two-band
parametric for the subwoofer channel between 20 and 80 Hz,
in addition to combination graphic and parametric
equalization for the three front channels above 80 Hz.

That wasn't really responsive to my question.

Why on earth would you need multi-band parametrics for such a narrow
frequency band? Wouldn't that be "overkill"?

dave weil wrote:
On Tue, 31 May 2005 14:37:38 -0400, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

dave weil wrote:

On Tue, 31 May 2005 13:47:50 -0400, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

Ironically, the SVS
20-39 Ultra sub I reviewed a while back for TSS also had a
parametric equalizer built in, although it was only a
single-band job.

Wouldn't a single band cover the entire low bass range? If so, why
would you need another band?

The SVS unit's single-band equalizer was fully adjustable as
to center frequency (anywhere from 20 to 80 Hz), degree of
cut (it could only cut, not boost), and Q (width of
corrected range). It was designed to flatten out the primary
resonant peak. The Velodyne DD models have multi-band
parametric equalizers built in, for serious fine tuning the
response curve. The outboard Rane THX-44 equalizer that I
use (and which I have also reviewed) has a two-band
parametric for the subwoofer channel between 20 and 80 Hz,
in addition to combination graphic and parametric
equalization for the three front channels above 80 Hz.

That wasn't really responsive to my question.

Why on earth would you need multi-band parametrics for such a narrow
frequency band? Wouldn't that be "overkill"?

For the sake of example...lets say you have a suckout at 60 Hz and a
big boom at 40Hz. How would you propose to correct this with a single
band equalizer?

ScottW

ScottW wrote:
dave weil wrote:

On Tue, 31 May 2005 14:37:38 -0400, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

dave weil wrote:

Why on earth would you need multi-band parametrics for
such a narrow
frequency band? Wouldn't that be "overkill"?

For the sake of example...lets say you have a suckout at
60 Hz and a
big boom at 40Hz. How would you propose to correct this
with a
single band equalizer?

Good shot Scott, right over Weil's head. So, you can fire
that low, after all!

On 31 May 2005 19:08:35 -0700, "ScottW" wrote:

Why on earth would you need multi-band parametrics for such a narrow
frequency band? Wouldn't that be "overkill"?

For the sake of example...lets say you have a suckout at 60 Hz and a
big boom at 40Hz. How would you propose to correct this with a single
band equalizer?

That's a good point.

Of course, personally, I would use my graphic to control the 40 hz and
let the parametric to take care of the 60hz (since my EQ would only
catch 63). But not everyone would want to introduce another component.
I COULD also use the parametric on an SAE preamp that I have as well
g.

I guess that the ideal solution is simply using one of the Rane 10
band parametrics. Now THAT'S an overkill situation chuckle.

On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:42:46 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

ScottW wrote:
dave weil wrote:

On Tue, 31 May 2005 14:37:38 -0400, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

dave weil wrote:

Why on earth would you need multi-band parametrics for
such a narrow
frequency band? Wouldn't that be "overkill"?

For the sake of example...lets say you have a suckout at
60 Hz and a
big boom at 40Hz. How would you propose to correct this
with a
single band equalizer?

Good shot Scott, right over Weil's head. So, you can fire
that low, after all!

See, THIS is precisely the reason why you're so despised here on RAO.
Even an exchange of information isn't immune from cheap shots from
you. Is it any wonder why there's so little on the group? You proclaim
that George is primarily responsible for the dire state of the group,
but this shows that it's YOU.

You are basically hell-bent on making RAO unusable. You've done a
pretty good job of advancing your agenda, THAT'S for sure.

Arny Krueger wrote:
ScottW wrote:
dave weil wrote:

On Tue, 31 May 2005 14:37:38 -0400, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

dave weil wrote:

Why on earth would you need multi-band parametrics for
such a narrow
frequency band? Wouldn't that be "overkill"?

For the sake of example...lets say you have a suckout at
60 Hz and a
big boom at 40Hz. How would you propose to correct this
with a
single band equalizer?

Good shot Scott, right over Weil's head. So, you can fire
that low, after all!


You need some serious psychotherapy. I understand the Smith & Wesson
clinic in your neighborhood can help.

ScottW

dave weil wrote:
On 31 May 2005 19:08:35 -0700, "ScottW" wrote:

Why on earth would you need multi-band parametrics for such a narrow
frequency band? Wouldn't that be "overkill"?

For the sake of example...lets say you have a suckout at 60 Hz and a
big boom at 40Hz. How would you propose to correct this with a single
band equalizer?

That's a good point.

Of course, personally, I would use my graphic to control the 40 hz and
let the parametric to take care of the 60hz (since my EQ would only
catch 63). But not everyone would want to introduce another component.
I COULD also use the parametric on an SAE preamp that I have as well
g.

I guess that the ideal solution is simply using one of the Rane 10
band parametrics. Now THAT'S an overkill situation chuckle.

10 band would be overkill but I can easily see someone using 3 or 4
bands if they really wanted the deepest flattest bass response they
could get.

One to handle LF cutoff. Most subs have one built in. Driving a sub
below what it can handle is just gonna yield distortion. Another to
boost bass and extend useful output. Another to quelch the inevitable
bloom, and a fourth to address the inevitable suckout. Parametrics are
easily tailored to address the frequency ranges needing a tweak while
others would be a lot more difficult to prevent more harm than good.

This post specifically intended to show Arny Kreuger how humans use
usenet.

ScottW

"ScottW" wrote in message
oups.com...


You need some serious psychotherapy. I understand the Smith & Wesson
clinic in your neighborhood can help.


He can always 'take the bus'.



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ScottW wrote:

This post specifically intended to show Arny Kreuger how
humans use
usenet.

Been there, done that tens of thousands of times.

"Arny Krueger" wrote ...

ScottW wrote:

This post specifically intended to show Arny Kreuger how
humans use usenet.

Been there, done that tens of thousands of times.


how come you're still such an asshole then?

Surf wrote:

how come you're still such an asshole then?

An insightful reader will read this post and know the
answer.

Surf said to Mr. ****:

how come you're still such an asshole then?

Arnii just explained that. He thinks monkeys are the height of sophistication
and classiness. One day, when Arnii stops eating his you-know-whats, the monkeys
will consider him a potential playmate. Until then, even the monkeys will shun
his company.