"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 May 2005 21:48:25 GMT, "Margaret von B."
wrote:

Your rooms are large but with low ceilings so
they don't have that much volume. Hmm. What kind of floor/foundation do
you
have?

I'm sure that he's on a slab. Most Florida homes are. He's also got
super-duper framing as well.

I've made the same point about his rooms. The dimensions ratio is
substandard. Of course, he's going to trot out Toole, who thinks that
you can use any ole room any ole time.

I find it rather interesting that Howard claims that the Hsu and the other
cheapish sub he has are as good as it gets and yet his rooms are brimming
with all kinds of bass enhancement devices. One simply has to conclude that
something in his setup really precludes him from testing and rendering
opinions on subwoofers altogether. I should probably invite him to my house
so that he can hear what BASS sounds like. :-)

Cheers,

Margaret

Margaret von B. wrote:
"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 May 2005 21:48:25 GMT, "Margaret von B."
wrote:

Your rooms are large but with low ceilings so
they don't have that much volume. Hmm. What kind of
floor/foundation do
you
have?

I'm sure that he's on a slab. Most Florida homes are. He's also got
super-duper framing as well.

I've made the same point about his rooms. The dimensions ratio is
substandard. Of course, he's going to trot out Toole, who thinks
that
you can use any ole room any ole time.

I find it rather interesting that Howard claims that the Hsu and the
other
cheapish sub he has are as good as it gets and yet his rooms are
brimming
with all kinds of bass enhancement devices. One simply has to
conclude that
something in his setup really precludes him from testing and
rendering
opinions on subwoofers altogether. I should probably invite him to my
house
so that he can hear what BASS sounds like. :-)

I have a cheapo Hsu VTF-2, I think it does a very nice job down to 30
Hz or so. I'm sure there are more expensive subs that can go deeper
but my 2nd story room doesn't accomodate deep bass well IMO so anything
more is a bit of a waste for me.

ScottW

ScottW wrote:
Margaret von B. wrote:
"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 May 2005 21:48:25 GMT, "Margaret von B."
wrote:

Your rooms are large but with low ceilings so
they don't have that much volume. Hmm. What kind of
floor/foundation do
you
have?

I'm sure that he's on a slab. Most Florida homes are. He's also
got
super-duper framing as well.

I've made the same point about his rooms. The dimensions ratio is
substandard. Of course, he's going to trot out Toole, who thinks
that
you can use any ole room any ole time.

I find it rather interesting that Howard claims that the Hsu and
the
other
cheapish sub he has are as good as it gets and yet his rooms are
brimming
with all kinds of bass enhancement devices. One simply has to
conclude that
something in his setup really precludes him from testing and
rendering
opinions on subwoofers altogether. I should probably invite him to
my
house
so that he can hear what BASS sounds like. :-)

I have a cheapo Hsu VTF-2, I think it does a very nice job down to
30
Hz or so. I'm sure there are more expensive subs that can go deeper
but my 2nd story room doesn't accomodate deep bass well IMO so
anything
more is a bit of a waste for me.

ScottW




Are you using it with the Quads?



Scott Wheeler

wrote:
ScottW wrote:
Margaret von B. wrote:
"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 May 2005 21:48:25 GMT, "Margaret von B."
wrote:

Your rooms are large but with low ceilings so
they don't have that much volume. Hmm. What kind of
floor/foundation do
you
have?

I'm sure that he's on a slab. Most Florida homes are. He's also
got
super-duper framing as well.

I've made the same point about his rooms. The dimensions ratio is
substandard. Of course, he's going to trot out Toole, who thinks
that
you can use any ole room any ole time.

I find it rather interesting that Howard claims that the Hsu and
the
other
cheapish sub he has are as good as it gets and yet his rooms are
brimming
with all kinds of bass enhancement devices. One simply has to
conclude that
something in his setup really precludes him from testing and
rendering
opinions on subwoofers altogether. I should probably invite him to
my
house
so that he can hear what BASS sounds like. :-)

I have a cheapo Hsu VTF-2, I think it does a very nice job down to
30
Hz or so. I'm sure there are more expensive subs that can go deeper
but my 2nd story room doesn't accomodate deep bass well IMO so
anything
more is a bit of a waste for me.

ScottW




Are you using it with the Quads?

Yes. Dead center. Quads are still full range and the sub is set low
pass somewhere between 50 and 60 Hz. Sub level is extremely touchy....
I wish it had a 10 turn pot .

ScottW

ScottW wrote:
wrote:
ScottW wrote:
Margaret von B. wrote:
"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 May 2005 21:48:25 GMT, "Margaret von B."
wrote:

Your rooms are large but with low ceilings so
they don't have that much volume. Hmm. What kind of
floor/foundation do
you
have?

I'm sure that he's on a slab. Most Florida homes are. He's also
got
super-duper framing as well.

I've made the same point about his rooms. The dimensions ratio is
substandard. Of course, he's going to trot out Toole, who thinks
that
you can use any ole room any ole time.

I find it rather interesting that Howard claims that the Hsu and
the
other
cheapish sub he has are as good as it gets and yet his rooms are
brimming
with all kinds of bass enhancement devices. One simply has to
conclude that
something in his setup really precludes him from testing and
rendering
opinions on subwoofers altogether. I should probably invite him to
my
house
so that he can hear what BASS sounds like. :-)

I have a cheapo Hsu VTF-2, I think it does a very nice job down to
30
Hz or so. I'm sure there are more expensive subs that can go deeper
but my 2nd story room doesn't accomodate deep bass well IMO so
anything
more is a bit of a waste for me.

ScottW




Are you using it with the Quads?

Yes. Dead center. Quads are still full range and the sub is set low
pass somewhere between 50 and 60 Hz. Sub level is extremely touchy....
I wish it had a 10 turn pot .

ScottW



Get a used Vandersteen 2W for 600 bucks!




Scott Wheeler

wrote in message
oups.com...


ScottW wrote:
wrote:
ScottW wrote:
Margaret von B. wrote:
"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 May 2005 21:48:25 GMT, "Margaret von B."
wrote:

Your rooms are large but with low ceilings so
they don't have that much volume. Hmm. What kind of
floor/foundation do
you
have?

I'm sure that he's on a slab. Most Florida homes are. He's also
got
super-duper framing as well.

I've made the same point about his rooms. The dimensions ratio is
substandard. Of course, he's going to trot out Toole, who thinks
that
you can use any ole room any ole time.

I find it rather interesting that Howard claims that the Hsu and
the
other
cheapish sub he has are as good as it gets and yet his rooms are
brimming
with all kinds of bass enhancement devices. One simply has to
conclude that
something in his setup really precludes him from testing and
rendering
opinions on subwoofers altogether. I should probably invite him to
my
house
so that he can hear what BASS sounds like. :-)

I have a cheapo Hsu VTF-2, I think it does a very nice job down to
30
Hz or so. I'm sure there are more expensive subs that can go deeper
but my 2nd story room doesn't accomodate deep bass well IMO so
anything
more is a bit of a waste for me.

ScottW




Are you using it with the Quads?

Yes. Dead center. Quads are still full range and the sub is set low
pass somewhere between 50 and 60 Hz. Sub level is extremely touchy....
I wish it had a 10 turn pot .

ScottW



Get a used Vandersteen 2W for 600 bucks!




Scott Wheeler


Highly recommended. I brought one over to my friends house
to try with his Quads



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ScottW wrote:

I have a cheapo Hsu VTF-2, I think it does a very nice job down to 30
Hz or so.

Yes. In a head to head against a Velodyne servo FSR-12 that
I use in my living room system the Hsu was able to match the
Velodyne even with clean test tones down to 25 Hz. Below 25
Hz the Hsu rolled off cleanly, while the Velodyne was solid
down to 20 Hz. With music the two simply sounded alike with
all but the most bass-deep pipe-organ material.

The VTF-2 (which I reviewed in issue 88 of The Sensible
Sound back in 2001) is a remarkable unit for the price the
company asks. Another good unit is the SVS 25-31. I reviewed
both the standard and extended-bass versions and found them
to be a match for the VTF-2, with the ability to play a bit
louder down low. Of course, the SVS is considerably larger,
with a larger driver, than the Hsu sub. No substitute for
size with ported subwoofers.

I'm sure there are more expensive subs that can go deeper
but my 2nd story room doesn't accomodate deep bass well IMO so anything
more is a bit of a waste for me.

With 95% (or more) of the music and movie materials out
there the VTF-2 will do as well as any other sub, at least
if huge output levels are not required.

Howard Ferstler

ScottW

"Margaret von B." wrote:

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 May 2005 21:48:25 GMT, "Margaret von B."
wrote:

Your rooms are large but with low ceilings so
they don't have that much volume. Hmm. What kind of floor/foundation do
you
have?

I'm sure that he's on a slab. Most Florida homes are. He's also got
super-duper framing as well.

I've made the same point about his rooms. The dimensions ratio is
substandard. Of course, he's going to trot out Toole, who thinks that
you can use any ole room any ole time.

I find it rather interesting that Howard claims that the Hsu and the other
cheapish sub he has are as good as it gets and yet his rooms are brimming
with all kinds of bass enhancement devices.

I rarely use the synthesizers, for reasons that I have
explained elsewhere. As for the Hsu (and SVS) subs being
cheap, I have compared them pretty closely to both of my
servo Velodyne models and they hold up very well with test
tones and are functionally equal with musical and movie
material. I recently compared a $300 Hsu to another brand
that listed for $850 and the Hsu mopped up the floor with it
when comparing tones between 40 and 25 Hz. With musical
sources the differences were less apparent.

One simply has to conclude that
something in his setup really precludes him from testing and rendering
opinions on subwoofers altogether.

Perhaps you should read some of my subwoofer reviews before
jumping to this conclusion.

I should probably invite him to my house
so that he can hear what BASS sounds like. :-)

I doubt if you can surpass the extremely clean bass
performance of that F1800RII of mine, right down to 20 Hz. I
have compared it to some sensational stuff, and while the
musical performance of some of them matched the servo, with
test tones the Velodyne always came out ahead, if only
slightly at times. Actually, my modified (by me) SVS 16-46
can generate wall-rattling (and clean) sound right down to
17 Hz.

Actually, I have done some very close comparing of several
Hsu subs to those Velodynes and the result was that the Hsu
units were a near match, at least down to the point where
the Hsu subs started to roll off. (In this case, I am
referring to the STF-1 and VTF-2 models, both of which I
have reviewed for The Sensible Sound.) I also recently
reviewed an upscale SVS unit that held its own with the best
I had on hand.

Howard Ferstler

On Fri, 27 May 2005 16:39:02 -0400, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

I rarely use the synthesizers, for reasons that I have
explained elsewhere. As for the Hsu (and SVS) subs being
cheap, I have compared them pretty closely to both of my
servo Velodyne models and they hold up very well with test
tones and are functionally equal with musical and movie
material.

Then no need to buy the "overpriced" Velodyne.

I hope that you made that point during reviews.

dave weil wrote:

On Fri, 27 May 2005 16:39:02 -0400, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

I rarely use the synthesizers, for reasons that I have
explained elsewhere. As for the Hsu (and SVS) subs being
cheap, I have compared them pretty closely to both of my
servo Velodyne models and they hold up very well with test
tones and are functionally equal with musical and movie
material.

Then no need to buy the "overpriced" Velodyne.

I hope that you made that point during reviews.

Go read them and see what you think. The F1800RII and FSR-12
reviews appeared in issue 67 of TSS, right along with the
review of the Hsu TN1220. A review of the Velodyne servo
HGS-15 appeared in volume 6, issue 4 of The Audiophile Voice
and a review of the the company's HGS-12 appeared in issue
80 of TSS. Reviews of the Hsu VTF-3 appeared in volume 8,
issue 4 of TAV, a review of the VTF-2 appeared in issue 88
of TSS, and a review of the Hsu STF-1 appeared in issue 100.
A reviews of the SVS 16-46 appeared in issue 88, a review of
the SVS 25-31 appeared in issue 94, and the company's PC
Ultra system appeared in issue 102. For the record, a review
of Paradigm's Servo 15 sub appeared in issue 71 of TSS, a
review of the NHT Evolution sub pair appeared volume 8,
issue 5 of TAV, a review of the Waveform MC sub pair
appeared in issue 84 of TSS, and a review of a B&W Subwoofer
2000 appeared in issue 73.

Those are some of the subs I have reviewed here and there
(there are others, but they are inconsequential in this
case), so all you have to do is read the reports and see
what I say about Velodyne performance in comparison to the
competition. I often compare and mention various points.

Howard Ferstler

On Fri, 27 May 2005 17:14:00 -0400, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

Those are some of the subs I have reviewed here and there
(there are others, but they are inconsequential in this
case), so all you have to do is read the reports and see
what I say about Velodyne performance in comparison to the
competition. I often compare and mention various points.

I've read at least one of your Velodyne reviews in the past I don't
remember yu recommending that someone not buy them because they are
overpriced vis a vis an "identically sounding" sub $500 subwoofer.
Maybe you could quote such a passage.

dave weil wrote:

On Fri, 27 May 2005 17:14:00 -0400, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

Those are some of the subs I have reviewed here and there
(there are others, but they are inconsequential in this
case), so all you have to do is read the reports and see
what I say about Velodyne performance in comparison to the
competition. I often compare and mention various points.

I've read at least one of your Velodyne reviews in the past I don't
remember yu recommending that someone not buy them because they are
overpriced vis a vis an "identically sounding" sub $500 subwoofer.
Maybe you could quote such a passage.

I have also reviewed a few non-servo Velodyne models, two of
which (both bass-reflex jobs) were not even made in the USA.
I found them to be so-so, and not really as good as
comparably priced (or even lower priced) Hsu and SVS models.
I think that all of those Velodynes are now out of
production. I have recently reviewed some subs from
mainstream speaker companies that were clearly inferior to
various Hsu and SVS models that cost the same or less, and I
said so in the reviews.

In any case, I have stated in some of my subwoofer reviews
(both of Velodyne subs and the competition) that while the
Velodyne servo subs had outstandingly low distortion (subtly
audible with test-tone signals), that edge of theirs did not
really matter when musical source material is considered.
However, some purists might just like to have a subwoofer
with distortion levels only a fraction of what some Hsu and
SVS versions exhibit, and lower than just about anything
else, too, at any price. For them, the price of the servo
versions is justified. At least the differences are real and
not imaginary, even if they only show up with test tones.

Howard Ferstler

On Tue, 31 May 2005 13:24:46 -0400, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

In any case, I have stated in some of my subwoofer reviews
(both of Velodyne subs and the competition) that while the
Velodyne servo subs had outstandingly low distortion (subtly
audible with test-tone signals), that edge of theirs did not
really matter when musical source material is considered.
However, some purists might just like to have a subwoofer
with distortion levels only a fraction of what some Hsu and
SVS versions exhibit, and lower than just about anything
else, too, at any price. For them, the price of the servo
versions is justified.

Hmmmm, sounds like someone who might want to spend $50,000 on a pair
of Wilson speakers. After all, it's 100% certain that they sound
"different" than, say a pair of IC-20s, or any other speaker system,
for that matter. Or that a purist might want to spend $10,000 on an
amp because of some differences that might show up on a test sheet? I
guess you're now saying that it's OK to exhibit such behavior.
Congratuations on moving forward, Howard. I think that you're starting
to 'get it".

At least the differences are real and
not imaginary, even if they only show up with test tones.

If they only show up with test tones, what does it matter? Isn't your
point that someone shouldn't spend a grand for differences that "don't
matter"? Shouldn't they be spending their money on CDs or something?
Or are you excusing paying for "overkill" products because YOU likely
didn't spend an "overkill" price on them? Would you give, say Audio
Note, a pass if they sold you an amp for $300?

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...
"Margaret von B." wrote:

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 May 2005 21:48:25 GMT, "Margaret von B."
wrote:


snipped


One simply has to conclude that
something in his setup really precludes him from testing and rendering
opinions on subwoofers altogether.

Perhaps you should read some of my subwoofer reviews before
jumping to this conclusion.


I have.

I should probably invite him to my house
so that he can hear what BASS sounds like. :-)

I doubt if you can surpass the extremely clean bass
performance of that F1800RII of mine, right down to 20 Hz. I
have compared it to some sensational stuff, and while the
musical performance of some of them matched the servo, with
test tones the Velodyne always came out ahead, if only
slightly at times. Actually, my modified (by me) SVS 16-46
can generate wall-rattling (and clean) sound right down to
17 Hz.


I don't have the model you have, but I have a HGS (?) - 18 outdoors in my
loggia/pool area that we could drag in (120 lbs ?) for comparison. :-)
In its present location, Hsu need not apply...

Enjoy your "break"!


Cheers,

Margaret

"Margaret von B." wrote:

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...

I doubt if you can surpass the extremely clean bass
performance of that F1800RII of mine, right down to 20 Hz. I
have compared it to some sensational stuff, and while the
musical performance of some of them matched the servo, with
test tones the Velodyne always came out ahead, if only
slightly at times. Actually, my modified (by me) SVS 16-46
can generate wall-rattling (and clean) sound right down to
17 Hz.

I don't have the model you have, but I have a HGS (?) - 18 outdoors in my
loggia/pool area that we could drag in (120 lbs ?) for comparison. :-)
In its present location, Hsu need not apply...

I am not sure what those question marks mean, but the first
HGS-18 was similar in design to the F1800RII. The HGS
version had a different cone and a different (probably more
durable) surround, and it also had a more powerful amp. (I
am not sure what the later HGS-18 Series 2 had, but the
latest Digital Drive, DD-18 version incorporates a built-in
parametric equalizer.) The amp power increase was
unimportant, because the servo would not let the sub play
significantly louder than the lower-powered F1800 version.
The bigger amp was just part of a "more horsepower" PR
campaign, probably against Sunfire.

I reviewed an HGS-15 a while back and did a close AB
comparison between it and the F1800. With either test tones
or music there was no difference up to fairly high levels. I
also compared the F1800 to the FSR-12, which is also a servo
unit, but with an older-design driver, and they sounded the
same. An HGS-12 I also reviewed was in the same performance
league, at least up to its max-output point.

OK, I also did comparisons between the Hsu TN1220 and the
SVS 20-39 Ultra and found them to be essentially equal
performers down to 20 Hz. Below that, both were bettered by
my own extensively modified SVS 16-46 unit. (A beta-tested,
mega-driver and some enclosure modifications that I
documented in a TSS article a while back.) Against the
F1800RII, those subs fell a tad behind with test-tone
inputs, but only at really high levels. As far as smooth
output is concerned, all three of the unmodified units had
similar extension, with my modified 16-46 outpointing them
all below 20 Hz and down to 17 Hz. (I consider this to be an
insignificant advantage.) A Hsu VTF-3 I reviewed a while
back was in the same category as these other subs at
moderate levels, but it did exhibit more port noise than I
would like at higher levels. It was the equal of the
unmodified SVS 16-46 before I worked the latter unit over,
however.

In a direct face off between that $1300 FSR-12 Velodyne and
a $500 Hsu VTF-2 I reviewed a while back, they were equal at
reasonable levels even with test tones down to 25 Hz, with
the Velodyne pulling ahead below that frequency. The Hsu did
not distort significantly, but its output fell off below 25
Hz. The Velodyne's did not. Recently, I reviewed a Hsu $300
STF-1 sub for TSS (his smallest model) and it held its own
against the VTF-2 down to 30 Hz. I will assume that it could
hold its own down to that frequency against any of the other
subs I have discussed, at least up to reasonable output
levels. Actually, the little Hsu sub has mopped up the floor
with several $500-$600 class subs I have been fooling with
lately.

The fact is that you can get killer bass response these days
from subs that cost less than a grand or maybe a tad more.
Yes, the Velodynes are very nice and they do have audibly
cleaner outputs at fairly high levels with test tones. But
with music this is nearly always just no big deal. Guys like
you (and maybe even me) will want the Velodyne edge, just
because it is nice to know that the reproduction is so
clean, but we could get along just a well with subs that
cost considerably less.

I will admit that the DD Velodynes do have those built-in
equalizers, and those could be of use. Ironically, the SVS
20-39 Ultra sub I reviewed a while back for TSS also had a
parametric equalizer built in, although it was only a
single-band job. Properly used, such equalization can come
in handy. I rated the SVS highly because of this, although
if you have an outboard equalizer that can also handle a sub
(I have a Rane THX-44), the need for one attached to the sub
is eliminated.

Howard Ferstler

On Tue, 31 May 2005 13:47:50 -0400, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

Ironically, the SVS
20-39 Ultra sub I reviewed a while back for TSS also had a
parametric equalizer built in, although it was only a
single-band job.

Wouldn't a single band cover the entire low bass range? If so, why
would you need another band?

dave weil wrote:

On Tue, 31 May 2005 13:47:50 -0400, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

Ironically, the SVS
20-39 Ultra sub I reviewed a while back for TSS also had a
parametric equalizer built in, although it was only a
single-band job.

Wouldn't a single band cover the entire low bass range? If so, why
would you need another band?

The SVS unit's single-band equalizer was fully adjustable as
to center frequency (anywhere from 20 to 80 Hz), degree of
cut (it could only cut, not boost), and Q (width of
corrected range). It was designed to flatten out the primary
resonant peak. The Velodyne DD models have multi-band
parametric equalizers built in, for serious fine tuning the
response curve. The outboard Rane THX-44 equalizer that I
use (and which I have also reviewed) has a two-band
parametric for the subwoofer channel between 20 and 80 Hz,
in addition to combination graphic and parametric
equalization for the three front channels above 80 Hz.

Howard Ferstler

On Tue, 31 May 2005 14:37:38 -0400, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

dave weil wrote:

On Tue, 31 May 2005 13:47:50 -0400, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

Ironically, the SVS
20-39 Ultra sub I reviewed a while back for TSS also had a
parametric equalizer built in, although it was only a
single-band job.

Wouldn't a single band cover the entire low bass range? If so, why
would you need another band?

The SVS unit's single-band equalizer was fully adjustable as
to center frequency (anywhere from 20 to 80 Hz), degree of
cut (it could only cut, not boost), and Q (width of
corrected range). It was designed to flatten out the primary
resonant peak. The Velodyne DD models have multi-band
parametric equalizers built in, for serious fine tuning the
response curve. The outboard Rane THX-44 equalizer that I
use (and which I have also reviewed) has a two-band
parametric for the subwoofer channel between 20 and 80 Hz,
in addition to combination graphic and parametric
equalization for the three front channels above 80 Hz.

That wasn't really responsive to my question.

Why on earth would you need multi-band parametrics for such a narrow
frequency band? Wouldn't that be "overkill"?