Hey All,

I am a total newb to this audio stuff. I am more into computers.
Anyways, every year the school I work for puts on a play and I am the
audio director. I want to know what kind of audio equipment I should be
using. We need a new mixer with at least 12 channels. 16 would be
better. Also, we would like a new equilizer.

Here is how it is setup right now...We have 6 hanging mics that go to a
box on the wall where they plug into. (I don't know the technical name
for the box.) That box has one fat cable coming out of it and travels
along the wall to the back of the gym. Then you can take that cable and
plug the cords from that cable into the mixer. We use one CD player for
the songs also that connects to the mixer, and the amp goes to the 4
speaker we use.

Questions: Is this a good setup? For a mixer, what are buses, and do I
need them? A mackie mixer has 4 buses, what is that? Should I have a
preamp on those mics I have? I don't think I have preamps right now.
Also, what kind of mics should I have?

Right now the audio of the plays just sound very BAD!! I want the
audience to be able to understand the actors.

PLEASE HELP!!!!!!

Thanks

jimover wrote ...
I am a total newb to this audio stuff. I am more into computers.
Anyways, every year the school I work for puts on a play and I am the
audio director. I want to know what kind of audio equipment I should be
using. We need a new mixer with at least 12 channels. 16 would be
better.

What are your 16 sources that require a 16-input mixer? Bigger isn't
necessarily better.

Also, we would like a new equilizer.

How does CD playback sound on the system? The speakers and the
room are almost a separate issue from microphone pickup, etc.

Here is how it is setup right now...We have 6 hanging mics that go to a
box on the wall where they plug into. (I don't know the technical name
for the box.) That box has one fat cable coming out of it and travels
along the wall to the back of the gym. Then you can take that cable and
plug the cords from that cable into the mixer. We use one CD player for
the songs also that connects to the mixer, and the amp goes to the 4
speaker we use.

Questions: Is this a good setup?

How does it sound when playing back music from a CD?

For a mixer, what are buses, and do I need them?

Busses are a way to control a group of microphones with a single
knob/slider. Much easier to fade the entire dialogue collection of
mics with a subgroup than try to handle 6-8-12 individual faders, etc.

A mackie mixer has 4 buses, what is that?

Several models of Mackie mixers have 4 buses, some have only 2,
some have 8, etc. etc.

Should I have a preamp on those mics I have? I don't think I have
preamps right now.

If you have a Mackie mixer, it almost certainly has mic preamps
built-in. The system would not work at all without them.

(HINT: Citing specific MODEL NUMBERS is extraordinarily
helpful. It converts this from a simplistic generic discussion into
something that might actually be helpful in your parcicular
circumstances.)

Also, what kind of mics should I have?

That is likely your main issue. The professionals put wireless clip-
on ("lav") mics on each actor. But you likely don't have the $$$
to do that.

Right now the audio of the plays just sound very BAD!! I want the
audience to be able to understand the actors.

How do the actors sound without the mics? Are they mumbling or
have they been taught how to project for the audience? That is one
of the major issues with amateur productions (and note that it has
nothing to do with technology).

HINT: Try to be more specific about what is wrong with the sound.
"sound very BAD" is like taking your car to the mechanic and saying
"fix it" without disclosing any symptoms, or going to the doctor and
saying "I feel ill. Cure me."

Note that this newsgroup is chartered more for recording than for
live reinforcement. There is another newsgroup with the specific
charter for your question... news:alt.audio.pro.live-sound But they
also likely won't like someone just coming along and whining without
more specific descriptions of equipment, production, symptoms, etc.

I am a total newb to this audio stuff. I am more into computers.
Anyways, every year the school I work for puts on a play and
I am the audio director.

I can't believe there isn't at least one student at your school who has at least
a basic understanding of audio and would be willing to do this. Find him, and
turn the job over to him.

On 4/29/05 5:34 PM, in article
, "
wrote:

Hey All,

I am a total newb to this audio stuff. I am more into computers.
Anyways, every year the school I work for puts on a play and I am the
audio director. I want to know what kind of audio equipment I should be
using. We need a new mixer with at least 12 channels. 16 would be
better. Also, we would like a new equilizer.

Here is how it is setup right now...We have 6 hanging mics that go to a
box on the wall where they plug into. (I don't know the technical name
for the box.)
STAGE BOX,
Audio Connector Panel
Etc

That box has one fat cable coming out of it and travels
along the wall to the back of the gym.
SNAKE

Then you can take that cable and
plug the cords from that cable into the mixer. We use one CD player for
the songs also that connects to the mixer, and the amp goes to the 4
speaker we use.

Questions: Is this a good setup?

Except for the mic positions, probably

For a mixer, what are buses, and do I
need them?

Audio Funnels, if you will... A different way to control levels:
Some mic inputs can be assigned to a sub-mixer (a BUSS) that allows
group-control over their level:
say you have musicians
and you get a proper blend of flute, cello and classical guitar...
AND you only want to have them ON -only- at certain parts of the play...
(you want them OFF in case the guitarist sneezes or something during a
scene)
Well if you have to turn all 3 faders up and down each time -AND- have to
be sure they are UP at the right relative levels, it's extra work you don;t
need...
SO you ASSIGN those 3 mics to, say, BUSS #1 which then functions as a
MASTER LEVEL CONTROL for those 3 mics only... You can leave the 3 mics up
and turn the whole GROUP of them up and down with the one fader for Buss#1.


A mackie mixer has 4 buses, what is that?

4 possible groups of mics that you can set up whatever way makes them easier
to control in bunches.

Right now the audio of the plays just sound very BAD!! I want the
audience to be able to understand the actors.
Should I have a
preamp on those mics I have?

Yes, it's usually built into the mixer... Each channel has one.

I don't think I have preamps right now.
Also, what kind of mics should I have?

You really want mics ON the stage floor at the front edge of the stage.
These would be something like the ubquitous CROWN PCC-160. 3 or 5 should do.


You should really never have more than ONE of them on at once if you can
help it. You follow the action around the stage with the faders.

On 4/29/05 5:34 PM, in article
, "
wrote:


There's a good rule-of-thumb...
The director (and/or Musical Director) MUST do their job, the actors MUSt at
a MINIMUM be able to make themselves heard clearly at all times to the first
row. As a sound designer I expect that the actors/musicians can and DO
deliver -[unassisted- sound, diction and good balance clearly to the
first-row-center seats. If they can do that, I can work the system and make
it heard (with system tweaks) anywhere in the audience. If they WILL NOT do
that, then you can never make this work.

wrote in message
ups.com...

I am a total newb to this audio stuff. I am more into computers.
Anyways, every year the school I work for puts on a play and I am the
audio director. I want to know what kind of audio equipment I should be
using. We need a new mixer with at least 12 channels. 16 would be
better. Also, we would like a new equilizer.

Given your current setup, why do you think you need 12-16 channels? Are you
planning to do individual wireless mics on the performers?

Why do you think you need a new equalizer?

Here is how it is setup right now...We have 6 hanging mics that go to a
box on the wall where they plug into. (I don't know the technical name
for the box.) That box has one fat cable coming out of it and travels
along the wall to the back of the gym. Then you can take that cable and
plug the cords from that cable into the mixer.

The whole assembly is called a snake. The box part is called a stage box or
snake box. The end that plugs into the mixer is sometimes called a fan-out.

We use one CD player for
the songs also that connects to the mixer, and the amp goes to the 4
speaker we use.

Questions: Is this a good setup?

It's pretty standard, anyway. If properly operated, it has the possibility
of sounding decent. But see below.

For a mixer, what are buses, and do I
need them?

A bus (sometimes spelled "buss") is best described as a little mixer within
the mixer. If you assign several mics to a particular buss rather than to
the main output of the mixer, you can then use the fader on the bus
(sometimes called a submaster) to control the volume of all those mics at
once, without disturbing their relative levels. So, for example, if you put
all of your stage mics onto a single bus, you could bring them in and out
simultaneously with a single fader move, without their relative levels
changing.

A mackie mixer has 4 buses, what is that?

See above.

Should I have a
preamp on those mics I have? I don't think I have preamps right now.

Yes, you do; they're built into the mixer. Each microphone input jack goes
into a preamp inside the mixer; how much that preamp amplifies is (probably)
controlled by the knob at the top of that channel's strip called "Gain" or
"Trim" or someting like that.

Also, what kind of mics should I have?

That's a tough question; see below.

Right now the audio of the plays just sound very BAD!! I want the
audience to be able to understand the actors.

Read the rec.audio.pro FAQ, with particular attention to something called
the RULE OF THREES. One of the problems with the sort of hanging-mic setup
you have, especially with as many microphones as you're using, is that
typically a perfomer is picked up by two microphones at once, but they're
different distances away. Thus the sound arrives at the two mics at
different times, and without going into a lot of details at the moment,
intelligibility can suffer greatly. That's probably the source of your worst
problems. Another problem, depending on the hall, may be that because you
can't turn the gain up very much on the mics (feedback problems), the
amplified signal isn't that much louder than the unamplified signal the
audience hears acoustically from the stage. That's another case of hearing
two signals at once, but at different times, and again intelligibility will
suffer. So you may have to use a very different setup.

Peace,
Paul

William Sommerwerck wrote:
I am a total newb to this audio stuff. I am more into computers.
Anyways, every year the school I work for puts on a play and
I am the audio director.

I can't believe there isn't at least one student at your school who
has at least
a basic understanding of audio and would be willing to do this. Find
him, and
turn the job over to him.

that is a great suggestion!
Mark

wrote:

Right now the audio of the plays just sound very BAD!! I want the
audience to be able to understand the actors.

PA systems don't make things sound better. They make things sound
louder. If you have bad sound, PA systems give you louder bad sound.

Ultimately, the real solution is getting performers to project better.

Also, realize that if this is like a typical multipurpose room, it is
very hollow and echoey sounding. It'll get better when it's full, but
using PA will just make it louder and echoey.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

We don't use 16 channels right now, but I want to expand so we could
use them. Right now we use 6 channels for hanging mics, 3 for
lavaliers, and a few more for portable mics. I want more lavaiers
though.

The CD player sounds great. But its hard to here the kids singing with
the volume on the CD player. I have to have the CD music down very low
and the mics almost all the way up.

I don't have a mackie mixer right now, I have a brand name that isn't
made any more. I forget the name of it.I am thinking about if I should
get a mackie, and if so what model. Also, if I should get mackie, or
something else.

We use lav mics and would like to get more. But we can only affored VHF
kind, UHF we could probally get, but not a lot of.

Thanks

It is an elementary school. There is no one!! I have to learn it by
myself. I am a fast learner though. Is there any magazins or books you
would suggest for my situation?

thanks for the help. as for a stage floor mic, is that a good one? is
there any cheaper ones? Right now I am not using any floor mics. Is
crown a good kind? thanks.

thanks for the help. I never thought about the mics pick up the sound
at different times. I turn the mics all on at the same time. So all 6
hanging mics are on. I do get a lot of feedback problems when I turn up
the mics, that it why i thought I should get a new equilizer with a
feedback destroyer to fix that. Know any good models that would work
for me?

Thanks

On 5/3/05 5:51 PM, in article
, "
wrote:

We don't use 16 channels right now, but I want to expand so we could
use them. Right now we use 6 channels for hanging mics, 3 for
lavaliers, and a few more for portable mics. I want more lavaiers
though.

Start with foot mics...
Get the best you can
Add whatever lavs ONLY to match what you can do with the foot mics


The CD player sounds great. But its hard to here the kids singing with
the volume on the CD player. I have to have the CD music down very low
and the mics almost all the way up.

The music playback should be coming ONLY from speakers placed UPSTAGE so
that they're like a band behind the actors playing out towards the audience.
This will let the performers hear AND result in a natural mix of
music/performers to the audience

On 5/3/05 5:59 PM, in article
, "
wrote:

thanks for the help. as for a stage floor mic, is that a good one? is
there any cheaper ones? Right now I am not using any floor mics. Is
crown a good kind? thanks.

Ideally the CROWN PCC-160.

In a pinch what you CAN do is place ANY unidirectional mic (like a SHURE 57
or 58) lieing down on the stage deck pointing at the actors. You'll need to
lay it on a sheet of cusiony foam so it doesn;t touch the floor and pick up
bumps. You need 3 or 5 of them

On 5/3/05 6:05 PM, in article
, "
wrote:

thanks for the help. I never thought about the mics pick up the sound
at different times. I turn the mics all on at the same time. So all 6
hanging mics are on.

ONLY turn on a mic when a speaking actor is near it. It makes for very busy
fader-work but it IS the skill.

I do get a lot of feedback problems when I turn up
the mics, that it why i thought I should get a new equilizer with a
feedback destroyer to fix that. Know any good models that would work
for me?

"SSJVCmag" wrote in message
...
On 5/3/05 5:51 PM, in article
,
"
wrote:

We don't use 16 channels right now, but I want to expand so we could
use them. Right now we use 6 channels for hanging mics, 3 for
lavaliers, and a few more for portable mics. I want more lavaiers
though.

Start with foot mics...
Get the best you can
Add whatever lavs ONLY to match what you can do with the foot mics

But if the kids/actors are not projecting properly, give up now,
save yourself a lot of grief, and arrange to be out of town. I am
not kidding. It is a thankless job and has enormous potential for
disaster which, of course, will be blamed on you.

A friend of mine told me about a brilliant solution he tried back
when he was teaching middle school. He brought all the kids
into a studio and recorded the entire production "radio drama"
style. Repeat the lines as many times as it takes to get them right,
edit all together with music cues, etc. (Almost trivial to do today
on a computer)

Then he played the tape back a dozen times and had the kids practice
"lip-syncing" to themselves saying/singing the parts until they could
do it convincingly. Everyone was amazed with the quality of the sound.

wrote in message
ups.com...
thanks for the help. I never thought about the mics pick up the sound
at different times. I turn the mics all on at the same time. So all 6
hanging mics are on. I do get a lot of feedback problems when I turn up
the mics, that it why i thought I should get a new equilizer with a
feedback destroyer to fix that. Know any good models that would work
for me?

That's not what you need. You need to get rid of the hanging mics. Floor
mikes will work a whole lot better. Teaching the kids to project will help a
lot too.

Adding more processing to an inherently bad setup will not give you better
results.

Peace,
Paul

On 5/3/05 11:17 PM, in article , "Richard
Crowley" wrote:

But if the kids/actors are not projecting properly, give up now,
save yourself a lot of grief, and arrange to be out of town. I am
not kidding. It is a thankless job and has enormous potential for
disaster which, of course, will be blamed on you.

Bingo...


A friend of mine told me about a brilliant solution he tried back
when he was teaching middle school. He brought all the kids
into a studio and recorded the entire production "radio drama"
style. Repeat the lines as many times as it takes to get them right,
edit all together with music cues, etc. (Almost trivial to do today
on a computer)

Then he played the tape back a dozen times and had the kids practice
"lip-syncing" to themselves saying/singing the parts until they could
do it convincingly. Everyone was amazed with the quality of the sound.


Now That's Just Plain Scary....

On Wed, 04 May 2005 00:46:31 GMT, SSJVCmag
wrote:

The CD player sounds great. But its hard to here the kids singing with
the volume on the CD player. I have to have the CD music down very low
and the mics almost all the way up.

The music playback should be coming ONLY from speakers placed UPSTAGE so
that they're like a band behind the actors playing out towards the audience.
This will let the performers hear AND result in a natural mix of
music/performers to the audience

If you do that, you'll have the same problem that an on-stage band
would give. The music will get into the mics that should be picking
up the singers.

The biggest mistake you can make is to sit at a mixing desk in the
auditorium, get the music sounding good in the front speakers. Then
try to bring up the stage mics to match it.

Set up floor mics and any other general-cover mics you want to use.
Get as good a sound in the auditorium as possible from the performers
who will have only this coverage. Now, maybe you have wireless body
mics for solo performers. Set these to a level that doesn't
overbalance everyone else. Not "as loud as possible" :-) Now you
can add the music. Just in the stage monitor speakers for now.
These need to be placed as close as possible to the performers, while
not feeding into the floor mics. Set a level that doesn't drown the
voices.

Now, think about the audience. They are already getting as much of
the singers as possible. Maybe they are getting enough music already
from the stage monitors. Maybe you need to put just a LITTLE of the
music into the auditorium speakers. Remember, the voices are already
amplified as far as they will go. They can't come up to the music.
It has to come down to them.

If you play music before the show (Why? Does this INCREASE the impact
of the real show?) make sure it isn't so loud that the show sounds
small in comparison.


Maybe forget about mics altogether. An audience is quite capable of
shutting up and listening. What it finds hard is to constantly
adjust to differing levels.

On Tue, 3 May 2005 20:17:18 -0700, "Richard Crowley"
wrote:

A friend of mine told me about a brilliant solution he tried back
when he was teaching middle school. He brought all the kids
into a studio and recorded the entire production "radio drama"
style. Repeat the lines as many times as it takes to get them right,
edit all together with music cues, etc. (Almost trivial to do today
on a computer)

Oh God! Karaoke theatre! What FOR?

On 5/4/05 4:12 PM, in article ,
"Laurence Payne" wrote:

On Wed, 04 May 2005 00:46:31 GMT, SSJVCmag
wrote:

The CD player sounds great. But its hard to here the kids singing with
the volume on the CD player. I have to have the CD music down very low
and the mics almost all the way up.

The music playback should be coming ONLY from speakers placed UPSTAGE so
that they're like a band behind the actors playing out towards the audience.
This will let the performers hear AND result in a natural mix of
music/performers to the audience

If you do that, you'll have the same problem that an on-stage band
would give. The music will get into the mics that should be picking
up the singers.

And that can be FINE... If the levels are right (and with kids, the music
will be necessarily REAl quiet...) then all it mewans is the audience hears
a good mix and has to listen instead of experieinceing something they can
blab overtop of throughout like they was sittin in the den wtatchin the
teevee

If you read what you wrote here, it's EXACTLY right except that I'm placing
the music-only stage monitors UPSTAGE facing forwards. This does a NUMBEr of
Real Good Things:

ELIMINATES the usual stage-monitors-blowing-backwards-messing-up-the-sound
issue.

Makes it nearly impossible to mis-balance the show.

Gives an inherently natural sense to the performance withteh performers
being sensed as up-front due to the time delay inherent in where the music
comes from.

Again, you;re pretty much detailing what I merely sketched overall in what
you write below:


The biggest mistake you can make is to sit at a mixing desk in the
auditorium, get the music sounding good in the front speakers. Then
try to bring up the stage mics to match it.

Set up floor mics and any other general-cover mics you want to use.
Get as good a sound in the auditorium as possible from the performers
who will have only this coverage. Now, maybe you have wireless body
mics for solo performers. Set these to a level that doesn't
overbalance everyone else. Not "as loud as possible" :-) Now you
can add the music. Just in the stage monitor speakers for now.
These need to be placed as close as possible to the performers, while
not feeding into the floor mics. Set a level that doesn't drown the
voices.

Now, think about the audience. They are already getting as much of
the singers as possible. Maybe they are getting enough music already
from the stage monitors. Maybe you need to put just a LITTLE of the
music into the auditorium speakers. Remember, the voices are already
amplified as far as they will go. They can't come up to the music.
It has to come down to them.

If you play music before the show (Why? Does this INCREASE the impact
of the real show?) make sure it isn't so loud that the show sounds
small in comparison.


Maybe forget about mics altogether. An audience is quite capable of
shutting up and listening. What it finds hard is to constantly
adjust to differing levels.

Only here, with KIDS it is indeed IMPOESSIBLE to hear in auditoriums with
real HVAC rumbling.

"SSJVCmag" wrote in message
...
On 5/3/05 11:17 PM, in article ,
"Richard
Crowley" wrote:

But if the kids/actors are not projecting properly, give up now,
save yourself a lot of grief, and arrange to be out of town. I am
not kidding. It is a thankless job and has enormous potential for
disaster which, of course, will be blamed on you.

Bingo...


A friend of mine told me about a brilliant solution he tried back
when he was teaching middle school. He brought all the kids
into a studio and recorded the entire production "radio drama"
style. Repeat the lines as many times as it takes to get them right,
edit all together with music cues, etc. (Almost trivial to do today
on a computer)

Then he played the tape back a dozen times and had the kids practice
"lip-syncing" to themselves saying/singing the parts until they could
do it convincingly. Everyone was amazed with the quality of the
sound.


Now That's Just Plain Scary....

It worked for Mili Vanili (and more recently for what's-her-name
on SNL :-)