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#1
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Recording Techniques used on King's Choir
Can anybody please help me. I am interested in the techniques used to
capture the amaising sound of King's college Choir. In particular the Mic selection and placement, Analoque/digital recording and anyting els that has to do with the recording of the choir. Thankyou. |
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#2
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"Kathryn" wrote in message
om... Can anybody please help me. I am interested in the techniques used to capture the amaising sound of King's college Choir. In particular the Mic selection and placement, Analoque/digital recording and anyting els that has to do with the recording of the choir. Which recordings? They've made quite a lot, for various record companies, and I would bet the various companies used different mic selection and placement. Peace, Paul |
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#3
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"Kathryn" wrote in message
om... Can anybody please help me. I am interested in the techniques used to capture the amaising sound of King's college Choir. In particular the Mic selection and placement, Analoque/digital recording and anyting els that has to do with the recording of the choir. Thankyou. Surely if you start off in Kings College Chapel much of the sound quality follows from being in that location ? -- M Stewart Milton Keynes, UK http://www.megalith.freeserve.co.uk/oddimage.htm |
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#4
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Malcolm Stewart wrote:
"Kathryn" wrote in message om... Can anybody please help me. I am interested in the techniques used to capture the amaising sound of King's college Choir. In particular the Mic selection and placement, Analoque/digital recording and anyting els that has to do with the recording of the choir. Thankyou. Surely if you start off in Kings College Chapel much of the sound quality follows from being in that location ? It also has a lot to do with the quality of the musicianship of the choir itself. Good musicians are somehow easier to record and have sound good. |
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#5
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Kathryn wrote:
Can anybody please help me. I am interested in the techniques used to capture the amaising sound of King's college Choir. In particular the Mic selection and placement, Analoque/digital recording and anyting els that has to do with the recording of the choir. On which recordings? These guys have been recording since the acoustic 78 days of the 1920s, and have continued recording through many generations of recording technology. For the most part, the secret is that they are very good singers in a good room, though. But if you have a particular recording, there are folks you can ask about it. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#6
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Scott Dorsey wrote:
For the most part, the secret is that they are very good singers in a good room, though. And that changes through the years too. Not only an annual turnover of singers, but David Wilcox was famous in the '60's/70's for the particular ethereal sound he got from the choir, so the way they were trained is part of the sound. The BBC once had a strange problem with their broadcast of the famous Christmas "Festival of Nine Lessons and Carols" - a deep rumbling sound from some overhead mics that wasn't there during the rehearsal, traced eventually to the upward air currents from dozen of candles lit for the service. Anahata (posting from Cambridge, UK, and many years ago a student at the same college) |
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#7
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A lot depends on the space in which the choir is singing.
I recorded the King's College choir in the Sydney Opera House a few years ago. It was a live recording with an audience so I placed the mics (AKG 414's as a stereo pair) on the winches about 3 metres above and 2 metre behind the conductor. This gave a sound that is quite different from the recordings I have heard. Much less reverberation, and a lot more detail of the voices in the choir is apparent, rather than the very blended sound on the recordings. I have never tried to make my recording sound like the commercial recording, but I suspect it could be done using some "large room" reverberation, for a start. Peter. Kathryn wrote: Can anybody please help me. I am interested in the techniques used to capture the amaising sound of King's college Choir. In particular the Mic selection and placement, Analoque/digital recording and anyting els that has to do with the recording of the choir. Thankyou. |
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#8
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#9
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#10
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Kathryn wrote:
(Scott Dorsey) wrote in message ... Kathryn wrote: Can anybody please help me. I am interested in the techniques used to capture the amaising sound of King's college Choir. In particular the Mic selection and placement, Analoque/digital recording and anyting els that has to do with the recording of the choir. On which recordings? These guys have been recording since the acoustic 78 days of the 1920s, and have continued recording through many generations of recording technology. For the most part, the secret is that they are very good singers in a good room, though. But if you have a particular recording, there are folks you can ask about it. Thankyou, I am really interested in the Palestria Mass'Tu es Petrus', any information would be fantastic. That's an EMI recording from 1965, at least my LP with Sir David Willcocks conducting is. The problem with EMI stuff is that back then EMI was conglomerating all of these different companies together into one big empire so they didn't have standard procedures down to the point that most of folks like Decca did. Sounds to me like it was done with a single ribbon mike, probably to one of the wacky EMI tape machines. The pressing I have was definitely cut with a Westrex mono head by someone who signed the lacquer "L.B." A letter to EMI will probably get you a lot more information. Sorry, if it were a Decca recording of that era or a Columbia recording of that era, it would be a lot easier to track down the exact procedures, since they were pretty well standardized throughout the label. EMI didn't have such an advantage. But to be honest, listening to the recording what I hear is a decent mono rendition of a really wonderful hall. If you can get that hall, everything else is gravy. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#11
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Carey Carlan wrote:
It takes a pair of omnis well placed in the right room. Distance from the group is the most crucial modifier. So, what are typical distances in highly reverberant rooms like this? Lars -- lars farm // http://www.farm.se lars is also a mail-account on the server farm.se aim: |
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#12
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On 4/27/05 1:54 PM, in article
, "Lars Farm" wrote: Carey Carlan wrote: It takes a pair of omnis well placed in the right room. Distance from the group is the most crucial modifier. So, what are typical distances in highly reverberant rooms like this? EASY: Tell me the mic, tell me the artist/instrument, tell me what result you want...? |
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#13
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SSJVCmag wrote:
On 4/27/05 1:54 PM, in article , "Lars Farm" wrote: Carey Carlan wrote: It takes a pair of omnis well placed in the right room. Distance from the group is the most crucial modifier. So, what are typical distances in highly reverberant rooms like this? EASY: Tell me the mic, tell me the artist/instrument, tell me what result you want...? The expected answer in this group, but ... well, that's avoiding the question a bit don't you think? Why not answer with the type of mics you prefer in a situation like this and the kind of result that you want? Actually the mics were already half specified - a pair of omnis. The artist/instrument is given - a good, small a capella choir. Boys trebles and male altos if you want to narrow it down a bit. The room is given and can easily be extrapolated to similar rooms. I'm fully aware that there is no absolute right or wrong. I ask for opinion expressed in a distance. sincerely Lars -- lars farm // http://www.farm.se lars is also a mail-account on the server farm.se aim: |
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#14
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On 4/27/05 5:39 PM, in article
, "Lars Farm" wrote: SSJVCmag wrote: So, what are typical distances in highly reverberant rooms like this? EASY: Tell me the mic, tell me the artist/instrument, tell me what result you want...? The expected answer in this group, but ... "but.."? You ask for a result and complain when you;re asked what that desired result should be? I guess you;re right, it IS the expected result from anyone who can Do this sort of job when asked a blunderbuss of a question, well, that's avoiding the question a bit don't you think? much like getting peeved when you ask the mechanic "what's wrong with my car?" and he responds "Well, what are the symptoms?" or "I haven;t driven it yet..." Expected... Fine We'll stick with spaces SIGNIFICANTLY larger and harder than your average suburban good-sized church. Desired result: What I find Works, for me. Clarity, hall, some sense of distance without losing emotional touch with the performance. -------------------- Pair of Ck22 omni's 12' off the floor 80' out from the massive organ loft (huge cubic Dc Shrine Of The Immaculate Conception) ------------ SASS in the mathematical center of a full-horsehoe arc of the chorus right in front of the director's music stand (Annapolis Naval Academy men in the Navy Academy 'chapel'... In which you can fit several decent-sized full churches) ------------------- XY cards with 8' wing omni's 22'in the air with delayed spot mics along the 700 member choir spread across an ungodly 90' radius, percussion and horn ensemble within 15' of the array. (PG County 250 anniversary commisioned choral works in a huge arena) ----------------------- MS-blumlien in the air suspended over the DsC trap kit (in the null) at about head height for the highest row of the 300 singers (KenCen Concert Hall massed gospel choirs) --------------- Decca-esque 3-Schoepps (model escapes me, marvelous classic tube mics... 221b?) slightly above and out from the organ loft for small chorus and string ensemble. (Mid-sized stone church in DC) ------------------ These very different situations and rigs all grabbed a nice, similar space-vs-source thing that pleased me and the various producers. There are many many more options, all valid until you choose the one you like from listening. The artist/instrument is given - a good, small a capella choir. Boys trebles and male altos if you want to narrow it down a bit. The room is given and can easily be extrapolated to similar rooms. I'm fully aware that there is no absolute right or wrong. I ask for opinion expressed in a distance. Why not answer with the type of mics you prefer in a situation like this and the kind of result that you want? Actually the mics were already half specified - a pair of omnis. The answer is Where They Sound Right. Go ahead, hit me for another 'typical expected avoidance' response, I'm happy to be holding up the Grand Tradition and Good Name of the place... Again The answer is Where They Sound Right. Nothing else anyone can tell you will work. This job is a indeed SIMPLE, if not easy, Few tools needed, only one rule: All You Need Is Ears (Sir Martin). Fail to use them at your peril. -YOU- get to choose. POSITION LISTEN CHOOSE REPEAT: POSITION the performers where they sound good in the room LISTEN till you like what you hear CHOOSE that place POSITION each performer relative to the other so they balance right (DISREGARD -any- previous 'official' juxtaposition of the group) LISTEN for balance and feel CHOOSE that setup POSITION the microphone(s) LISTEN to what comes down the wire CHOOSE what you like RECORD LISTEN START AT TOP That's really all there is to it. ONLY you, the person with the ears THERE, THEN, can answer any of the questions you've asked. Truth is truth, You can;t have opinions about truth (Prof P.Schickele) |
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#16
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SSJVCmag wrote:
We'll stick with spaces SIGNIFICANTLY larger and harder than your average suburban good-sized church. I'm not from Cambridge, not even from England, but I've been to Cambridge several times. I do know Kings College Chapell. I've listened to Kings College Choir in that room. I've even had a former choir member (Robert Chilcott) as choir leader for brief period. Desired result: What I find Works, for me. Clarity, hall, some sense of distance without losing emotional touch with the performance. I find that when I'm as close as I want to get the voices I get to little room. When I get as much room as I want I loose the voices and the choir fades into something I don't like. The balance point you talk about is elusive. That's why I ask - what works for you? -------------------- Pair of Ck22 omni's 12' off the floor 80' out from the massive organ loft (huge cubic Dc Shrine Of The Immaculate Conception) 24m out? wow... In a significantly smaller church where the room was about that size I placed the mics about 6m out from the organs great division this past sunday and I was pleased with the result, but that was organ in a small church, not choir in a big church. These very different situations and rigs all grabbed a nice, similar space-vs-source thing that pleased me and the various producers. POSITION LISTEN CHOOSE REPEAT: No doubt, but I knew that already. Thanks for sharing your experiences. That's what I asked for. L -- lars farm // http://www.farm.se lars is also a mail-account on the server farm.se aim: |
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#17
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Carey Carlan wrote:
Too close and you hear individual voices and a smooth but faint reverb. Too far and you lose the clarity in the wash of room sound. I've been in perhaps 3-4m, but then I lose the room. If I move out a couple of meters I loose the choir and it all turns to mush. This is a capella, worse with instruments. I want it where I just can distinguish individual voices (small choir) and still have a nice sense of the room... For a group as well trained and rehearsed as those at King's College you can get quite close without voices sticking out or undue noise from movement or breathing, yet I wouldn't, because the blended sound is so very pleasant. I'd say that both close and far requires good technique from the singers. Articulation is lost at distance without good technique. They have to be together. Perhaps closer exagerates bad technique and far hides both good and bad technique. Assuming [...] I'd start about 15 feet away and move as necessary. Thanks for sharing. L -- lars farm // http://www.farm.se lars is also a mail-account on the server farm.se aim: |
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#18
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#19
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Lars Farm wrote:
The expected answer in this group, but ... well, that's avoiding the question a bit don't you think? Why not answer with the type of mics you prefer in a situation like this and the kind of result that you want? Actually the mics were already half specified - a pair of omnis. The artist/instrument is given - a good, small a capella choir. Boys trebles and male altos if you want to narrow it down a bit. The room is given and can easily be extrapolated to similar rooms. I'm fully aware that there is no absolute right or wrong. I ask for opinion expressed in a distance. Depends a lot on the music and how bright the room reverberation is. With a pair of baffled omnis in a big stone-walled room, I can sometimes be as close as five feet for a solo vocal piece, and as much as fifty feet for plainsong where you don't want to hear individual singers and you don't necessarily need good intelligibility. If the room is brighter, I'm going to be closer-in than I would be in a room with the same RT60 but with a balance more slanted toward midrange and low end reverberation. If there's percussion accompaniment, I might move the percussion so it is a lot farther away from the mikes than the soloists. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#20
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On 4/28/05 6:59 AM, in article
, "Lars Farm" wrote: SSJVCmag wrote: Desired result: What I find Works, for me. Clarity, hall, some sense of distance without losing emotional touch with the performance. I find that when I'm as close as I want to get the voices I get too little room. When I get as much room as I want I loose the voices and the choir fades into something I don't like. And again, I have no idea what different mics you tried. The balance point you talk about is elusive. Yep. Welcome to The Job. You are apparently listening well and have Expectations. It's hell from here on out but worth it in the end. Like Edison, you'll try 100 different tweaks to everything and end up learning 99 ways NOT to do it... THIS time, next time it's all different. That's why I ask - what works for you? -------------------- Pair of Ck22 omni's 12' off the floor 80' out from the massive organ loft (huge cubic Dc Shrine Of The Immaculate Conception) 24m out? wow... Gigantic space, gigantic instrument (there's another whole smaller instrument installed near the altar that's electrically tied into the main console at the back if you want a REAL mess...) we'd placed mics about 8' out from the organ loft rail (which is some 30' up IIRR) but they were WAY too close to really use. In a significantly smaller church where the room was about that size I placed the mics about 6m out from the organs great division this past sunday and I was pleased with the result, but that was organ in a small church, not choir in a big church. Yep. These very different situations and rigs all grabbed a nice, similar space-vs-source thing that pleased me and the various producers. POSITION LISTEN CHOOSE REPEAT: No doubt, but I knew that already. Thanks for sharing your experiences. That's what I asked for. The only Magic Bullet that I know that takes the madness off your shoulders is Hire Someone Else to do it. But then it's no fun... |
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#21
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One more idea to throw into the pot: Tony Faulkner's "phased array" setup.
Two Figure-8 mics, both pointed forward, separated by a small distance -- 12"? 18"? I don't remember exactly. He claimed that it gave better "reach" and focus from greater distances. That first, famous Hildegard of Bingen recording ("A Feather on the Breath of God", on Hyperion) used this technique. I must say I liked the sound. Peace, Paul |
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#22
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On 4/28/05 1:35 PM, in article
, "Paul Stamler" wrote: One more idea to throw into the pot: Tony Faulkner's "phased array" setup. Two Figure-8 mics, both pointed forward, separated by a small distance -- 12"? 18"? I don't remember exactly. He claimed that it gave better "reach" and focus from greater distances. That first, famous Hildegard of Bingen recording ("A Feather on the Breath of God", on Hyperion) used this technique. I must say I liked the sound. 'phased array' ? Was there some sort of odd matrix/combining thing going on or just 'a coupla mics in the air"? I can certainly see a pair of 8's if you really diin't like the room and needed the reach, but the spacing-vs-distance-vs-source-width would be pretty dang important. |
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#23
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With Choral music I use close mics for articulation and distant mics
for reverb. then balance to my taste, with tempo often dictating the balnce between the two different positionings. kevin doyle |
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#24
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"SSJVCmag" wrote in message ... On 4/28/05 1:35 PM, in article , "Paul Stamler" wrote: One more idea to throw into the pot: Tony Faulkner's "phased array" setup. Two Figure-8 mics, both pointed forward, separated by a small distance -- 12"? 18"? I don't remember exactly. He claimed that it gave better "reach" and focus from greater distances. That first, famous Hildegard of Bingen recording ("A Feather on the Breath of God", on Hyperion) used this technique. I must say I liked the sound. 'phased array' ? Was there some sort of odd matrix/combining thing going on or just 'a coupla mics in the air"? Just a coupla mics in the air, aimed parallel to one another. I wouldn't expect the technique to sound good, really, but Tony's recordings sure do. I can certainly see a pair of 8's if you really diin't like the room and needed the reach, but the spacing-vs-distance-vs-source-width would be pretty dang important. Yup. Peace, Paul |
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