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#1
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Patchbays/Jackfields.
Hi,
I am looking for a patchbay that does not require plugging patch chords into it's front panel (which is how the traditional patchbay is).**Instead,*I would like a box, at the back of which I plug in cables coming from all my audio source equipment and all my audio destination equipment and which has rows of switches on the front panel to connect any source to any destination.**I*have*not*seen*such*a*patchbay*on*t he*Web.**Does*one*exist and where might I get it? Yours, Gary Hayward. |
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#2
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Yes, there are devices like this. Keep in mind they will usually be larger,
have less I/O and be more expensive than a standard patchbay. I haven't seen a purely mechanical one in a long time ( they were really big and usually used for synthesizers ) but there are a lot of digitally controlled ones out there. The ones with lots of I/O made for large TV studios etc are really expensive and the ones that are at the bottom of the price range are still kind of expensive and only have 8 to 16 I/O. When you do a Google search user the word 'matrix' in your search string, like 'audio matrix switch patchbay' Here's a sample : http://www.sound-music.com/product_info.php?PID=212 Also check out Coleman Audio and Little Labs for their existing products or perhaps they can make you something custom http://www.colemanaudio.com/ http://www.littlelabs.com/ Also, lots of regular patchbays here : http://home.flash.net/~motodata/patchbays/right.html -- John L Rice "Gazza" wrote in message ... Hi, I am looking for a patchbay that does not require plugging patch chords into it's front panel (which is how the traditional patchbay is). Instead, I would like a box, at the back of which I plug in cables coming from all my audio source equipment and all my audio destination equipment and which has rows of switches on the front panel to connect any source to any destination. I have not seen such a patchbay on the Web. Does one exist and where might I get it? Yours, Gary Hayward. |
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#3
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Gazza wrote:
I am looking for a patchbay that does not require plugging patch chords into it's front panel (which is how the traditional patchbay is).**Instead,*I would like a box, at the back of which I plug in cables coming from all my audio source equipment and all my audio destination equipment and which has rows of switches on the front panel to connect any source to any destination.**I*have*not*seen*such*a*patchbay*on* the*Web.**Does*one*exist and where might I get it? This is called a "Matrix Switch." It's substantially more expensive than a simple patchbay, it often does not provide very good multing, and it is generally a pain in the neck. But, it can be set up for computer control which is handy for a lot of things. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#4
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On 18 Apr 2005 22:15:34 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Gazza wrote: I am looking for a patchbay that does not require plugging patch chords into it's front panel (which is how the traditional patchbay is).**Instead,*I would like a box, at the back of which I plug in cables coming from all my audio source equipment and all my audio destination equipment and which has rows of switches on the front panel to connect any source to any destination.**I*have*not*seen*such*a*patchbay*on *the*Web.**Does*one*exist and where might I get it? This is called a "Matrix Switch." It's substantially more expensive than a simple patchbay, it often does not provide very good multing, and it is generally a pain in the neck. But, it can be set up for computer control which is handy for a lot of things. --scott Agilent and others these in instrumentation grade. Might be a good bit more money than you want to spend, but they support all sorts of switching configurations. |
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#5
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Gazza wrote: Hi, I am looking for a patchbay that does not require plugging patch chords into it's front panel (which is how the traditional patchbay is). Instead, I would like a box, at the back of which I plug in cables coming from all my audio source equipment and all my audio destination equipment and which has rows of switches on the front panel to connect any source to any destination. I have not seen such a patchbay on the Web. Does one exist and where might I get it? Yours, Gary Hayward. That's a "Switcher" not a patchbay. They come in various sizes [numbers of inputs x number of outputs ] ie 120 x 80 . Most are designed to chase a video switcher, and work based on some sort of computer automation. Companies that make them are Leitch, Grass-Valley, Sony, Phillips ( sometimes under the names Venus, i forget the name of the audio switcher ) Check in used broadcast equipment. |
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#6
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In article .com,
nmm wrote: Check in used broadcast equipment. In what universe is broadcast equipment retired before it becomes a molten pool? |
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#7
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james wrote: In article .com, nmm wrote: Check in used broadcast equipment. In what universe is broadcast equipment retired before it becomes a molten pool? You must work at PBS or something. I've seen all sorts of things get retired that still have many good years left on them. Switchers, especially analog audio switchers, are being retired to make room for AES/EBU switchers. Analog Video DAs that were only a few years old were replaced with SDI Video DAs, and are now being replaced with HD-SDI video DAs. I forget the exact FCC rule, and what date it is effective by, but all broadcast is going digital. That means that all sorts of things that were in the broadcast chain are being dumped, and replaced by HD compatible digital equipment. That means a lot of the big broadcasters are refurbishing, and a lot of used gear that is not a "Molten pool" is showing up on the market. I can see an Analog audio switcher as something that will get retired. Now if the FCC would grant some LPTV licences to anyone other than religious nuts, maybe some of this equipment could get put to good use. |
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#8
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In article .com,
nmm wrote: You must work at PBS or something. Well spotted! :-) All my broadcast experience has been in college radio and community radio. Well, I had a certain amount of involvement in a small TV station, but they had the most amazing digital patching system I've ever seen; cooler than anything I saw touring NASA Mission Control, actually. On the other hand, that TV station had a basement full of stuff that looked like it went back to 1954. Didn't look like they ever threw anything away, or even had a yard sale. I forget the exact FCC rule, and what date it is effective by, but all broadcast is going digital. Yeah, and all power plants are going solar. And the Easter Bunny hides eggs in every kid's yard, and Santa Claus brings them toys, too ;-) |
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#9
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james wrote: In article .com, nmm wrote: You must work at PBS or something. Well spotted! :-) It's funny comparing the American public broadcasting system with the rest of the world. At the CBC broadcast centre they bought 3 Neve capricorns when they came out, and ending up pulling one and demanding Neve build them an Analog board ( which Neve weren't doing at the time). All the PBS facilties I've seen are starving for equipment. I've never worked on any CBC project that was "underengineered" in any way. Straight out overkill on everything. Need a tape deck; buy a Studer. Need a Distribution Amp; we should have 2 spares, with redundent power supplies. All my broadcast experience has been in college radio and community radio. Well, I had a certain amount of involvement in a small TV station, but they had the most amazing digital patching system I've ever seen; cooler than anything I saw touring NASA Mission Control, actually. The cool thing i say at Cape Canavril were those hugh Amphenol connectors that break away between the multi-stage boosters. On the other hand, that TV station had a basement full of stuff that looked like it went back to 1954. Didn't look like they ever threw anything away, or even had a yard sale. It seems that a lot of station engineers are packrats, hoarding away equipment for rainy days. At one CBC transmitter site they were storing old satelitte recievers, all completely useless. they are decomisioning all their microwave STLs, but that stuff will sit for years before any of it gets sold. Something to do with paperwork and budgets; if they make money by selling things one year that money will be cut from their budget the next. I forget the exact FCC rule, and what date it is effective by, but all broadcast is going digital. Yeah, and all power plants are going solar. And the Easter Bunny hides eggs in every kid's yard, and Santa Claus brings them toys, too ;-) NO this is real.. no joke. It has been pushed back from the original date they set, but soon the FCC has mandates All Broadcasts Must be available Digital. |
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#10
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On 4/18/05 9:42 PM, in article ,
"Gazza" wrote: Hi, I am looking for a patchbay that does not require plugging patch chords into it's front panel (which is how the traditional patchbay is).**Instead,*I would like a box, at the back of which I plug in cables coming from all my audio source equipment and all my audio destination equipment and which has rows of switches on the front panel to connect any source to any destination.**I*have*not*seen*such*a*patchbay*on*t he*Web.**Does*one*exist and where might I get it? I have the remains of the one built for Mutual Radio in the 50's It's a 12" rack panel mounting 18 6-pos 2-gang rotary switches and a WHOLE buncha 2-pair. You can build this easily as long as you first make a list and cross-refernce of what has to connect with what. |
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#11
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In article .com,
nmm wrote: NO this is real.. no joke. It has been pushed back from the original date they set, but soon the FCC has mandates All Broadcasts Must be available Digital. No, they will get around it. It's too easy. They can appeal to the voters, who will rain fury on their congresspeople. You must understand how firmly attached to television little old ladies are. And that's who drives politics in the US, believe it. |
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#12
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John L Rice wrote:
Yes, there are devices like this. Keep in mind they will usually be larger, have less I/O and be more expensive than a standard patchbay. I haven't seen a purely mechanical one in a long time ( they were really big and usually used for synthesizers ) but there are a lot of digitally controlled ones out there. The ones with lots of I/O made for large TV studios etc are really expensive and the ones that are at the bottom of the price range are still kind of expensive and only have 8 to 16 I/O. When you do a Google search user the word 'matrix' in your search string, like 'audio matrix switch patchbay' Here's a sample : http://www.sound-music.com/product_info.php?PID=212 Also check out Coleman Audio and Little Labs for their existing products or perhaps they can make you something custom http://www.colemanaudio.com/ http://www.littlelabs.com/ Also, lots of regular patchbays here : http://home.flash.net/~motodata/patchbays/right.html Hi, I've decided to make my own. I have done a diagram that shows how I will do it: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gary.ha...ox_Page_1.html. Any comments are welcome. Yours, Gary Hayward. |
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#13
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I'm guessing you're looking for a typical electrically controlled or
pushbutton router/switcher/matrix. This type of stuff is common in the video world, and most companies make "audio only" versions: www.kramerelectronics.com www.extronelectronics.com www.knoxvideo.com Also check out Ocean Matrix and TecNec stuff, although it's usually repackaged Kramer equipment. Cheers, Trevor de Clercq Gazza wrote: Hi, I am looking for a patchbay that does not require plugging patch chords into it's front panel (which is how the traditional patchbay is). Instead, I would like a box, at the back of which I plug in cables coming from all my audio source equipment and all my audio destination equipment and which has rows of switches on the front panel to connect any source to any destination. I have not seen such a patchbay on the Web. Does one exist and where might I get it? Yours, Gary Hayward. |
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#14
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"nmm" wrote:
[...] I've never worked on any CBC project that was "underengineered" in any way. Straight out overkill on everything. My tax dollars at work. Funding my competition, no less. Only in Canada... -- "It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!" - Lorin David Schultz in the control room making even bad news sound good (Remove spamblock to reply) |
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#15
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james wrote:
In article .com, nmm wrote: NO this is real.. no joke. It has been pushed back from the original date they set, but soon the FCC has mandates All Broadcasts Must be available Digital. No, they will get around it. It's too easy. They can appeal to the voters, who will rain fury on their congresspeople. You must understand how firmly attached to television little old ladies are. And that's who drives politics in the US, believe it. Also, I think the actual over-the-air broadcast television is dead for the most part. Market penetration of satellite and cable is so high that I don't think it really matters what local stations do with their broadcast signals, because so few people are receiving them directly anyway. And the satellite and cable providers are _not_ required to go digital, although most of them are headed in that direction if they aren't already there, because they can control bandwidth use that way. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#16
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Lorin David Schultz wrote: "nmm" wrote: [...] I've never worked on any CBC project that was "underengineered" in any way. Straight out overkill on everything. My tax dollars at work. Funding my competition, no less. Only in Canada... Are you really Lenny Asper? CBC has a mandate to reach every Canadian, and Not make a profit. IF it was a "For Profit" broadcaster, it would be competing against Global, CTV, and CHUM. But as it is CBC isn't stealing advertisers. I don't love all the CBC policies, but it's a good thing that someone is putting up transmitter towers in "Pickle Lake Ontario" and providing a National service. Look at what has become of the American Media without the anchor of a strong national broadcaster. |
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#17
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Gazza wrote:
Hi, I've decided to make my own. I have done a diagram that shows how I will do it: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gary.ha...ox_Page_1.html. Any comments are welcome. What you propose is called a "passive matrix" and is subject to several problems. The greatest of these problems is the lack of input and output buffering. This means that the loads presented to devices connected to the matrix inputs and the source impedances seen at the outputs vary depending on the number of outputs to which they are routed and on the devices connected to the matrix outputs. The inability to control these loads may lead to level, distortion, and crosstalk problems. Other problems result from the one-switch-per-crosspoint "control system". At 8 by 8 (64 switches) you are probably right at the limit of practicality. Consider that, if you're building this in a rack mount box, you'll need 4 or 5 rack units (1 RU = 1.75") to accomodate the switches while the I/O connectors would fit in 1 RU. Another control system issue is that there is nothing to prevent you from routing more than one input to an output. This results in attempting to mix inputs without the benefit of a mix bus which also leads to level and distortion problems. The bottom line is that at 8 by 8 you may achieve accetable performance but it depends more on luck than on engineering. -- ================================================== ====================== Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make | two, one and one make one." | - The Who, Bargain |
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#18
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Already sent this to uk.rec.audio NG
Gary a / Is it just for audio connections? b / How many sources and how many destinations are you catering for? Count stereo ones as 2. c / Are the lines unbal, or a mixture of both? d / Are the lines roughly at same operating level? You are advised not to route mic level! e / Will you be "sending" to several preferred destins from one source often? f / Do you have any DAs? Stereo or mono. g / Will some sources be normalled to their receiving destins almost permanently? h / Are there any long tielines to/from your central bay? j / Is input muting/shorting sometimes involved? k / Is there a default (failsafe) set-up? l / Will monitoring /metering be expected? These are the sort of questions, problems and reliefs encountered before designing a *matrix* of a certain size. Jim "Gazza" wrote in message ... Hi, I am looking for a patchbay that does not require plugging patch chords into it's front panel (which is how the traditional patchbay is). Instead, I would like a box, at the back of which I plug in cables coming from all my audio source equipment and all my audio destination equipment and which has rows of switches on the front panel to connect any source to any destination. I have not seen such a patchbay on the Web. Does one exist and where might I get it? Yours, Gary Hayward. "Gazza" wrote in message ... Hi, I am looking for a patchbay that does not require plugging patch chords into it's front panel (which is how the traditional patchbay is). Instead, I would like a box, at the back of which I plug in cables coming from all my audio source equipment and all my audio destination equipment and which has rows of switches on the front panel to connect any source to any destination. I have not seen such a patchbay on the Web. Does one exist and where might I get it? Yours, Gary Hayward. |
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#19
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Michael R. Kesti wrote:
Gazza wrote: Hi, I've decided to make my own. I have done a diagram that shows how I will do it: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gary.ha...ox_Page_1.html. Any comments are welcome. What you propose is called a "passive matrix" and is subject to several problems. The greatest of these problems is the lack of input and output buffering. This means that the loads presented to devices connected to the matrix inputs and the source impedances seen at the outputs vary depending on the number of outputs to which they are routed and on the devices connected to the matrix outputs. The inability to control these loads may lead to level, distortion, and crosstalk problems. Other problems result from the one-switch-per-crosspoint "control system". At 8 by 8 (64 switches) you are probably right at the limit of practicality. Consider that, if you're building this in a rack mount box, you'll need 4 or 5 rack units (1 RU = 1.75") to accomodate the switches while the I/O connectors would fit in 1 RU. Another control system issue is that there is nothing to prevent you from routing more than one input to an output. This results in attempting to mix inputs without the benefit of a mix bus which also leads to level and distortion problems. The bottom line is that at 8 by 8 you may achieve accetable performance but it depends more on luck than on engineering. Hi, I could use trim pots and level meters but I'd have to have loads of them and I'd be making a mixer. The only other option would be automatic balancing which would require clever electronics. Hmmm. I'll see if I can find a ready-made product or else I'll just have to get another mixer with lots of buses. Yours, Gary Hayward. |
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#20
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In article writes: I am looking for a patchbay that does not require plugging patch chords into it's front panel (which is how the traditional patchbay is).**Instead,*I would like a box, at the back of which I plug in cables coming from all my audio source equipment and all my audio destination equipment and which has rows of switches on the front panel to connect any source to any destination. 360 Systems made a few of these, and probably still do. eBay is your friend here. Some of them have buttons, others are controlled by a computer. CM Labs also has one and I'm pretty sure they still make it. -- I'm really Mike Rivers - ) However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over, lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo |
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#22
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On 4/18/05 8:42 PM, in article ,
"Gazza" wrote: Does one exist and where might I get it? Sure, here's a really great one: http://crookwood.com/products/iRou-A1.htm Mastering-grade switching, expandable, computer controlled. Allen -- Allen Corneau Mastering Engineer Essential Sound Mastering Houston, TX |
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#23
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"Allen Corneau" wrote in message ... On 4/18/05 8:42 PM, in article , "Gazza" wrote: Does one exist and where might I get it? Sure, here's a really great one: http://crookwood.com/products/iRou-A1.htm It is really great, but expensive! $4,000 - $8,000 US depending on model. The original post asked for a patch panel with switches not using patch cords. Neutrix makes a 2 row 24 input all TRS patch bay for $100. I would ask original poster if he wants patch-cable-free that badly to pay 40 times as much? Julian |
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