I am a classical pianist and want to record chamber music performances
for documentary purposes and the occasional "demo" for promoting
purposes.
I have a Rode NT4 stereo mic and want a combination preamp/A/D
solution for connecting to my laptop (Dell 5160 2.80 gHz pentium 4) for
under 500 euro. The mbox seems to fit the bill, are there other
contenders or is the Mbox not suited to my purposes and set up. I have
access to good rooms and instruments.
I may add other mics at a later date, but the NT4 is what I will start
out with.

Grateful for any advice.

Martin Hellstrom

Martin wrote:
I am a classical pianist and want to record chamber music performances
for documentary purposes and the occasional "demo" for promoting
purposes.
I have a Rode NT4 stereo mic and want a combination preamp/A/D
solution for connecting to my laptop (Dell 5160 2.80 gHz pentium 4) for
under 500 euro. The mbox seems to fit the bill, are there other
contenders or is the Mbox not suited to my purposes and set up. I have
access to good rooms and instruments.
I may add other mics at a later date, but the NT4 is what I will start
out with.

Grateful for any advice.

Martin Hellstrom

The mBox is getting on for 3 years old and the market is growing fast.

I would check out a few others too (if you have firewire):

http://www.presonus.com/firebox.html
http://www.edirol.com/products/info/fa66.html
the edirol does up to 192khz recording and has 6 in and Out (4 I/O at
192) and I am waiting for this to be available to get for my iBook. It
also has a built in limiter that you can switch in which may be useful
for live recording (or may not depending on how well it works!)

if you have USB, this might be the ticket
http://www.edirol.com/products/info/ua25.html

good luck!
David

"Martin" wrote:

I am a classical pianist and want to record chamber music
performances for documentary purposes and the occasional "demo"
for promoting purposes. I have a Rode NT4 stereo mic and want a
combination preamp/A/D solution for connecting to my laptop for
under 500 euro. The mbox seems to fit the bill, are there other
contenders or is the Mbox not suited to my purposes and set up.


Seems like a perfectly good solution to me. The hardware does exactly
what you need and it hits the price point. Plus you get Pro Tools LE
software, which is a very good thing.

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)

Martin wrote:
Grateful for any advice.

Microphones Technology and Technique by John Borwick

this will help understand some of the issues you face with simple
stereo recording.

also Bob Katz' Mastering Audio

then you need to start prcticing the art of recording, and it will
require lots of practice too.

mr doyle's pdf will only confuse the issue with facts on his endeavors
which have no bearing on your beginners status.

dale

Grand Piano

Based on my experiences with, Glenn Gould, Oscar Peterson, Elton John
and Keith Jarrett

The grand piano is one of the most acoustically complex instrument to
record, with its great dynamic range and wide musical range. From
classical, jazz to pop music it lends itself very well to recording.
There are numerous miking and processing techniques you may utilize
depending on the desired effect you are looking for. Grand pianos vary
in size from 7'-9'6" with the larger pianos sounding bigger due
to the size of the resonating sound board. Achieving the precise tonal
characteristics can be challenging yet will prove to be very satisfying
when achieved.

One thing to acknowledge is that the same grand piano with the
same miking set-up will most likely sound very different with another
player even if they are playing the same musical piece. How a player
strikes the keys and uses the sustain pedal are just some of the
personal performing characteristics that define many different styles
and sounds. With hard hammers and close miking you may get transients
that meter too slowly to read and you'll have to use your ears to
identify them. The mechanics of the piano can inhibit a good pick-up
with the extraneous noises from the pedal, hammers and resonating
buzzes. The acoustic ambient characteristics associated with the
recording environment also influence the sound you are striving for.

With pop piano (Alicia Keys, Elton John), we tend to prefer a close
pick-up. This allows for good clarity, minimal ambient influences. As
we move into jazz-pop (Norah Jones, Dianna Krall) we discover that the
grand piano sound starts to play a bigger role in a production and
needs to be treated accordingly and isolation from the live singing is
a factor. With jazz improvisation (Oscar Peterson, Keith Jarrett) the
use of the piano harmonically and sonically are greater and miking
set-ups are more challenging and need to be very accurate. Last but not
least is classical piano where certain rules are applied for achieving
an excellent pick-up that requires the ambient acoustics to play a
major role in the overall sound.

Pop Piano

Pop piano is a situation where the piano plays a contributing role in
the production by defining the chord changes. It needs to be able to be
heard amongst various other instruments yet not overpowering or
attracting too much focus especially if the artist is not known as a
piano player. Close miking is the preferred way to go which allows for
clarity and isolation.

One advantage about close miking is that you can capture the
articulation in the transients which is important in recording a piano
performance that is providing a strong rhythmic idea.

I first ask the player where in the range on the piano they will be
playing. A well disciplined player will play between 3-4 octaves,
shying away from playing too many bass octaves with the left hand;
respecting the bass player, avoid getting in the way of the lead vocals
both harmonically and rhythmically and using the sustain pedal only
when needed. Too much sustain pedal makes the piano sound too
reverberant and muddy.

For mics I prefer pencil condensers for there ability to pick up an
accurate mid-range and high-end. Because the diaphragms are small in
mass, they tend to react faster than large
Diaphragm condensers and therefore pick up higher frequencies more
efficiently. I don't really need a lot of low end from the piano for
with a good arrangement a bass player will cover the fundamentals of
the chord changes. If the player is playing a lot around or slightly
below middle "C" and not to dynamically I'll use large diaphragm
condensers to capture the low end.

I'll position the 2 mics approx 8"-12" above the strings and
approx 12'-18" apart. Try to position them over the same harmonic
points of the strings and slightly angle them between 35 - 45 =B0. If
the mics are positioned on axis (0*), some of the notes will sound
brighter than other notes due to the cardiod pick-up patterns of the
mics. I'll also watch that the mics are not too far apart to avoid
getting "the hole in the middle" sound. If the mics are too close
to the strings the balance of the different notes both musically and
sonically will be affected and I'll not get much of an even resonance
from the soundboard. I'll try to leave the lid open but if isolation
is required I'll slightly lower the mic position and lower the lid to
the half way position and use some type of blanketing to prevent
leakage.

With EQ, pop piano requires harmonic clarity. The music of the piano
needs to come through clearly. I might add a little mid range 3khz-5khz
and/or a little top end 10khz shelving (Wide "Q"). For some
situations I'll just use a top end shelving curve and lower the
activating frequency point anywhere down to 3khz. You need to remember
that if you boost the mids and the highs you will get more clarity but
eventually start to separate the brightness from the music of the
piano. When we listen to a grand piano we tend to prefer to hear the
left hand or low part in the left speaker and the right hand high part
in the right speaker. When EQ is required it must be done to both
tracks equally. As to not create individual sonic characteristics
between the low end (left hand) and the high end (right hand). For
example; if the piano needs to be brighter at 10khz, then boost the
left and right channel the same amount. If you treat each channel
differently in the sonic ranges the ear will tend to focus on the
speaker with the brighter sound source. Applying the same EQ to both
channels keeps the sonic characteristics the same and helps to retain
good stereo imaging. If you need to EQ in the low-mids (music range) to
create some separation, do it subtly if the EQ points are somewhat
different. With low end add a little if you need to get warmth but be
aware of clouding the production. Avoid bottom end boosting and if
anything roll off the bottom end if the piano sounds boomy.

If the player hits the occasional chord too loud you might need to
limit random transients to prevent distortion and/or the piano audibly
jumping out in level. The best way to do this is to treat the
transients in a sonic transparent fashion. That is to have some dynamic
control without affecting the sound of the piano. The goal is to manage
the transient problem without noticing its effect. With transients you
need to limit only the upper part of the transient by using a very fast
attack time; 1msec-10msec and fast release time; 10msec-20msec(link the
channels together). The idea is to get in and out as quickly as
possible, to manage the transient without affecting the intended
dynamics.

If the piano does not define the chord changes enough and the attack
sounds soft you can make it sound punchier and livelier by compression.


The idea here is to get the attack of the sound to come through more.
You do this by using a med-slow attack time 50msec-200msec, and a slow
release time 250msec or greater. This compresses the sustain part of
the chord playing which gives you the sensation that the piano was
played more aggressively.

I would suggest limiting first if necessary, then EQ (high-end) and
then compress. A ratio of 3:1 to 6:1 should get you started. Bruce
Hornsby uses this technique for getting his piano sound.

At certain times you might want to get a sustain sound from the piano.
This is achieved by high comp/limit ratios, fast attack times and very
slow release times. A good example of this can be found at the end of
The Beatles song "A Day In The Life". Here the release times on the
compressor were modified to release very, very slowly.

Jazz Pop Piano

These days' female jazz/pop singers and pianists dominate the charts.
Norah Jones and Dianna Krall are 2 of the best. Here we acknowledge
that the lead vocal is the most important element but is immediately
followed by the grand piano. Everything else plays a supportive role.
One thing in common is that these types of artists are highly skilled
pianist and will use the entire piano both musically and dynamically.
These types of artists sometimes record their lead vocals while they
are playing piano, which makes capturing the best performance very
challenging and trade offs are sometimes required. When performing
place a piece of 4' x 4' foam, a foot thick right on top of where
the sheet music tray sits. I actually remove the tray for it usually
produces sympathetic noises. This gives me great isolation between the
vocal mic and the piano mics. Because there playing at times maximizing
the full range of the piano I'll use large diaphragm condensers for
their ability to capture low end. I'll place them about 12"-16"
above the strings so I can get more of the sound board resonance and
16"-24" apart for the range of playing will be wider. Because the
higher strings on a piano do not have dampers they will sustain. If the
top end mic is not positioned to capture this range it will sound
distant and reverb like (basically a little higher and wider pick-up
than pop piano). I will leave the lid fully open for I don't want to
choke the sound. If I need more low end from the piano I'll introduce
a third mic over the lower range in an effort to capture the sonic
fullness of the piano. I will add this mic in to both left and right
channels and use it more for sonic purposes than musical purposes. I
will always rely on the full stereo imaging coming from the other 2
mics. If I have to roll off the mid to high frequency range of the 3rd
mic to achieve accurate stereo imaging I'll do it.
With EQ you will need to make sure the top end of the piano does not
interfere with the presence of the lead vocal. If the piano is to
bright you will invariably have to bring down its overall level. When
you do this you also lower the music element of the piano. All of a
sudden your vocalist sounds barren for they are musically out there
exposed on their own and even though the piano can be heard clearly it
will not contain enough of the harmonic information from the low
mid-range to support the lead vocal. Even though the levels of the
piano and vocalist are close they are quite detached musically. "Be
Aware"

With Compression/limiting and EQ I tend to use it minimally. As with
all piano EQ and dynamic control what you do to one channel you do
exactly to the other.

Jazz Piano

With traditional Jazz pianists like Oscar Peterson and Keith Jarrett
you will get performances that are highly complex in dynamics and
musical content. These types of
pianists are always improvising on the spot where they are literally
are all over the vast range of the keyboard with incredible speed with
dramatic dynamic changes. These random changes in performing are
happening all the time and you need to prepare yourself to capture this
type of performing. Experiment with mic positions and different
condenser mics. Of all pianists, jazz players are the most articulate
when it comes to meeting their needs. They "speak our technical
language". I usually use pencil condensers like the B&K (DAP) 4000
series. They can handle a lot of level without distorting and can
translate the percussive nature of jazz playing. As I said previously
small diaphragm condensers capture very fast transients more accurately
than large diaphragm. I'll often place the 2 mics slightly higher in
the range and factor in a 3rd low end mic assigned to both left and
right. If the room has good ambient characteristics I'll pull the
mics further back and get an overall sound from the piano. With Jazz
it's nice to get the articulation and the resonance of the piano. For
dynamic control I'll get the player to play very loud and I'll
still back off the level to allow for more headroom. With traditional
jazz playing you do not want to be in a position to have to reset
levels to prevent distortion. If any EQ is required it's usually in
the high end just too add a little shimmer to the sound. With dynamic
control, it will be used rarely for the dynamics are often exaggerated
to highlight the performance. If any limiting is required it will be
for getting more level on a CD, but only if it is not that noticeable.

Classical Piano

In recording classical piano factoring in a good recording ambience is
very important to the overall sound. Recordings by the greatest
classical pianist were mostly done in good concert halls and large
studios.

The conventional and traditional way to record piano is to set up 2-3
large diaphragm condensers at different angles approx 8ft-12ft away
facing the piano. The mics are angled similar to the angle of the piano
lid opening and are usually set up high (6ft-12ft). Large diaphragm
condensers are used to capture the low end of the piano and are often
used in an omni pattern to allow the acoustics of the space to be used
and mics used in an omni have a flatter frequency response than mics in
cardioid patterns.

The distance between the mics and the piano dictates the ratio between
the direct sound and the ambient sound. The goal of this type of
recording is to place the piano and the mics in a strategic place for
optimum clarity and room ambience. However I find this type of pick up
limiting.

If the tempo changes dramatically from adagio (slow) to allegro (fast)
the piano sound can vary. If you found a mic position that suited an
overall good pick up, you might discover that the piano sounds detached
and dry with the slower moving pieces and quite muddy at faster tempos.

What is perceived to be happening is that this type of pick up has dead
spots in it, where once the ambience completely decays you hear dead
air between the notes. The opposite happens when the tempo picks up and
is quick. The piano begins to sound muddy and reverberant, for the
decay is hanging over too much into the next note. This can be very
apparent in there are sudden dynamic changes where the piano goes from
a loud dynamic and quick tempo to a softer dynamic and slower tempo in
a short period of time. The piano sound appears to have too much reverb
in amplitude and decay time. Other than taking the time to find
suitable mic positions and piano placement and risking losing a good
basic mic position and piano placement most often the people involved
will settle for a basic good all round position. I find this limiting.

I was very fortunate to work with Glenn Gould one of the greatest
classical pianist of the 20th century who was very much into sound
innovation. With his recordings I would find a good position for the
placement of the piano, usually in the center of the room away from any
close walls. Next I would place 3 large diaphragm condensers approx
8ft-12ft from the piano in cardioid pick up patterns. With this
placement I would strive for a sound that would be clear and balanced
if the music was at a quick tempo (Allegro). Next I would place a
stereo mic or 2 matching condensers between 12ft-18ft from the piano in
omni to capture a medium reverb time that would include early
reflections. Next, I would set up another stereo mic or 2 matched
condensers approx 20ft-30ft from the piano for a reverb effect. This
would allow for smooth decay times if the tempo was slow (adagio) and
avoid any dead air.

With this type of pick up I have maximum control over the recording
situation. With 3 different mic setups at various distances I can
change the piano sound from a clear distinct sound to a very warm and
reverberant sound without changing the mic positions and having to
constantly go back into the studio to alter mic and piano positions.
With Glenn I would preview and mark the score where changes would be
required if I was recording to a 2 track final mix or record to a
multi-track and have control when I was mixing.



Microphones
B&K 4000 series, Neumann M149, 87, U-67, U-47, Akg stereo C-24
Excellent transient response, quiet, flat frequency response



Pre-amps
GML, Millenia, Neve, --any high quality pre that is quiet and good
transient response


EQ
Neve, GML, API, Manly; --4 band, quiet, no colouration effect; more
edge around 3khz-5khz bell curve wide "Q"; presence 10khz and up
shelving; low end fullness 80hz-150hz


Limiting
Very little, not perceivable when inserted, fast attack and fast
release times


Compression
Usually for pop; level control, creating more attack to the sound
Med attack-medium release

To the original poster:

If you are wondering why this makes no obvious sense as an answer to the
question, it's because Kevin Doyle has the unfortunate habit of answering
questions not by answering the question, but by posting a long handout from
one of his college classes that may, or may not, have anything to do with
the question at hand. It's just one of life's small annoyances. Ignore it.

Peace,
Paul

"Matrixmusic" wrote in message
ps.com...
Grand Piano

Based on my experiences with, Glenn Gould, Oscar Peterson, Elton John
and Keith Jarrett Blah Blah Blah

Oh, and if you go over to the thread on The Greatest News Ever, you'll find
Mr. Doyle's views on the Resurrection of Christ.

Peace,
Paul

From classical, jazz to pop music

Pop Piano

Jazz Pop Piano

can one ask where the references to "Chamber Music Recordings" is????
(must be in another pdf)

see what we mean !!!

the man feels that his **** does not stink

Hello Martin,

I got an MBox Factory to get ProTools LE, not a bad little rascal for
what it is. :-)

One thing that may(not) bug you is that you'll always have to have the
MBox (or other Digidesign gadgets) plugged in to listen to and work
with your material.

Another thing is the two-channels worth of inputs which may(not) give
you room for growth.

You may want to peruse the Digidesign website ahead of time to see if
the Mbox setup is "qualified" for the laptop you've got.

Been mixing down a room full of Sopranos... Chamber music sounds nice!
vbg

Just trading notes...

Best,
Andy

"dale" wrote in message
oups.com...
From classical, jazz to pop music

Pop Piano

Jazz Pop Piano

can one ask where the references to "Chamber Music Recordings" is????
(must be in another pdf)

I've always classified piano solo as "chamber music". As it happens, it's
such a large segment of chamber music that it's frequently placed in its own
category. But it IS chamber music.

Norm Strong

I actually did a lot of work on The Passion"

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.
I got the Mbox last friday, and recorded some songs with a
mezzosoprano on saturday. The results are promising, and despite some
problems I feel that this will be a setup I can use for some time and
learn. I will look up the texts you mentioned, dale, I really need to
get some theoretical knowledge as well as hands on experience.
My laptop turns out (of course) to be less than optimal for Mbox (
hyperthreading that has to be turned off, an internal fan that works
overtime with the Mbox connected..) but will be ok for the learning
process at least. Why is Mbox so picky with the hardware?

One problem that turned up was that most songs would have one or two
notes that would be significantly higher and louder than the rest of
the song. While this is just a question of setting the levels
according to these, it seems a pity to record 98% of a performance on
a very low level, effectively lowering the resolution for that part of
the performance, just to allow for one peak.

Martin

"Martin Hellstrom" wrote in message
...

One problem that turned up was that most songs would have one or two
notes that would be significantly higher and louder than the rest of
the song. While this is just a question of setting the levels
according to these, it seems a pity to record 98% of a performance on
a very low level, effectively lowering the resolution for that part of
the performance, just to allow for one peak.

Well, if you're recording in 24 bits, and most of the recording peaks at
around -12dBFS, you're still using 22 bits, and that's 132dB of theoretical
dynamic range, way more than the dynamic range of the microphone and preamp.
Don't worry about it.

Peace,
Paul