in article 1112218294.2e3e5929ebecfd390118cbbecbce8f66@terane ws, Trevor de
Clercq at wrote on 3/30/05 1:31 PM:

Random question: what happens if you hook the MS16's unbalanced outputs
(which I assume are cal'ed at OVU = 0.316 Volts which is -10dBV) into
the Digi002R inputs? If the Digi002R still has a max headroom of +18dBu
of input even with unbalanced signals, then you'd have more room since
-10dBV equals about -8 dBu...giving you about 26 dB over OVU as headroom
(which is a ton of headroom).

Yeah, that'd work as far as headroom, but as I recall I was uncomfortably
low on the digital meters at that point when I tried it; IE, my 24 bit
recording was not gonna be anywhere close to 24 bit. I'm not obsessed with
every channel being 'full scale" but neither do I want them to be half scale
all the time. I just want to hook stuff up, and have my transients hitting
up near full scale, and my steady-state stuff at a reasonable level, with a
minimum of fuss and NO active electronics in between. I think 9 db should
about do that, and then I have those 6 db cables I built should I need to
pad 15 db.

I did the math to make some 9 db pads and I'm off to buy the resistors and a
patch bay to hack. I don't want to have to put the MRL tape on there and
open the thing up and drop all the repro levels just to do a transfer; my
intent is to dump back and forth from the 16-track to pro tools all the
time. And I like how things sound the way I record; if I AM recording the
kick "too hot", then so be it; for this music ("Doom" is the genre, which is
a little twig off the "stoner rock" twig of the heavy metal branch of the
rock-n-roll tree) it sounds nice and punchy that way and in fact the band
commented on how great the kick sounds (using a Great River NV-series preamp
FWIW). But more to the point, I normally just record stuff so that it is
around 0vu on the tape meters, with no clip light lighting up, and it sounds
good that way and interfaces with all my OTHER gear just fine recorded that
way... so I'm not going to change the way I work to accomodate a PT
transfer, I'll just make a pad bay to accomodate PT's lame POS inputs
instead. It sounds to me like they did this on purpose, lowering the
headroom of the 002 LE system and not giving me any way to trim or adjust
it, and they can make their peace with their God someday for their actions
g but i'm done stressing about it. Just gonna make a fix and move on.

Thank you everyone!!

-jeff

In article .com writes:

I know I'm chiming in a bit late here, but I only just saw this thread
and had a thought: I'm suspicious of your MS-16's output calibration.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't the I/O on that machine RCA
unbalanced? That's the way every Tascam multitrack I've ever
encountered is designed.

You haven't encountered enough TASCAM multitrack recorders, then. The
MS-16 was a fairly serious machine. I can't find a catalog with it,
but now that I think about it, I believe it did have RCA (-10 dBV) RCA
connections as well as XLRs. I'll bet the guy who has it will know for
sure. And if it does, and he doesn't have "unbalanced is bad" fears,
that's the easiest way to get a lower output level from it into his
Digidesign interface.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

in article znr1112214251k@trad, Mike Rivers at wrote on
3/30/05 3:29 PM:

And if it does, and he doesn't have "unbalanced is bad" fears,
that's the easiest way to get a lower output level from it into his
Digidesign interface.

I have no such fears! My Neotek Seriess III has unbalanced inputs, though
they are not of the -10 dbwhateveritis variety. in fact in it's pure
incantation unbalanced should be a more hi-fi, cleaner way to transmit a
signal, if noise is not an issue. Less amplifiers in the signal path.
But the level is TOO low coming out of the -10 unbalanced outputs of the
MS16.

-jeff

I'll look again. I've looked, believe me. There's nothing under "hardware
setups" like others have said there would be. In the manual it seems to say
that there IS that option with the HD or TDM systems but maybe it's one way
they intentionally cheapen the LE software.

Thank you! I do appreciate all of you taking the time with this.

-jeff


Lemme know if you find it. There is a difference between how the 001 and 002
come up on the screen. I have one of each.

Ty Ford



-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:54:16 -0500, Jeff Olsen wrote
(in article ):

in article 1112206290.f36b143adb83f1b8302d17d05497ca6e@terane ws, Trevor de
Clercq at wrote on 3/30/05 10:11 AM:

Oh man, that stinks. I was basing my answer off the fact that the MBox
could handle +24 dBu. Why would Digi make a bigger, more expensive box
that could only handle a lower max input? Oh well....

Well, at least now we know what his Digi002R is cal'ed at: -14 dBFS.
Not a ton of headroom there....but if he unbalances his signal and thus
drops the input 6 dB he'll have an effective input cal of -20 dBFS which
should be plenty of room.

Pretty funny story there. One of the truly annoying foobars in this was
that I HAVE been running my MS-16 unbalanced for years. I'd floated pin 2
right at the outputs because grounding it instead at the unbalanced inputs
of my Neotek was giving me crosstalk. THe O-pad cables I built the other
day to drop the level 6db seem to only work across a balanced line though,
so then i thought, well screw it I'll do this right and reconnected the pin
2 in the XLR's coming off the tape machine, then pulled the modules all out
of my patch bay and cut the pin 2 trace right were the signal heads off to
the board, so that now I'd be balanced right up to the point where it headed
off to the Neotek, instead of unbalanced coming off the MS16. However I
didn't realize that getting balanced again would pick me up 6 db of
signal... so I effectively ended up negating the 6 db pad cables I'd just
built!! I coulda cried at the end of that fiasco.

-jeff


Thanks for sharing with us Jeff. We all learned something here.

Regards,

Ty Ford



-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:46:32 GMT, Jeff Olsen
wrote:

It sounds to me like they did this on purpose, lowering the
headroom of the 002 LE system and not giving me any way to trim or adjust
it, and they can make their peace with their God someday for their actions
g but i'm done stressing about it. Just gonna make a fix and move on.

It's just an arbitrary number; no biggie. I'm with Hank:
take a screwdriver to the repro level pots and get on with it.
Life's too short.

Or is your DBX level sensitive? I think not, but I'm often wrong.

Chris Hornbeck
6x9=42
"Right, the DBT is for all intents and purposes vastly superior to
casual listening."

In article writes:

I have no such fears! My Neotek Seriess III has unbalanced inputs, though
they are not of the -10 dbwhateveritis variety. in fact in it's pure
incantation unbalanced should be a more hi-fi, cleaner way to transmit a
signal, if noise is not an issue.

Noise, or rather, rejection of it, is the reason why we use balanced
connections. But for short runs (an example or a balanced long run is
a telephone wire) between properly designed units (not always the
case) it's not a problem.

But the level is TOO low coming out of the -10 unbalanced outputs of the
MS16.

OK, so +4 is too high, -10 is too low. I think you have an optimistic
view of how much dynamic range you don't have. But suit yourself.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article , Jeff Olsen
wrote:

in article , WillStG at
wrote on 3/30/05 11:30 AM:

Well as Jedd posted you can lower the 0VU level on the Protools LE
setups page to a minus 14dbFS level.

Not in 002, it seems. At least my manual says nothing and I've tried
looking where folks say it should be (in the setups page) and it's not there
the way it apparantly is in 001 and TDM systems.

Have you tried emailing Digi? You have to fill out their asinine form, and
it will take a couple days for them to get back to you. But they may well
come up with the answer. You might also try calling the dealer you bought
it from.

--
Jedd Haas - Artist
http://www.gallerytungsten.com
http://www.epsno.com

Jeff Olsen wrote:
in article 1112218294.2e3e5929ebecfd390118cbbecbce8f66@terane ws, Trevor de
I recall I was uncomfortably
low on the digital meters at that point when I tried it; IE, my 24 bit
recording was not gonna be anywhere close to 24 bit. I'm not obsessed with
every channel being 'full scale" but neither do I want them to be half scale
all the time.

Dude, first of all, the difference between +4 dBu and -10 dBV is about
12dB which equals about 2 bits of data. And since +4 dBu of output is
apparently, too hot, you are within *1 bit* of you ideal and maximum
input level. The worst case scenario with going unbalanced is that you
may have been able to squeeze one more bit out of your resolution, but
is it really worth it? And since unbalanced is a cleaner signal than
balanced, perhaps you've actually avoided losing quality with going
unbalanced. If you really need that extra bit, you can drop a leg of
the +4 dBu signal which will get you 1 bit less than +4 dBu and 1 bit
more than -10 dBV. But it doesn't really matter because....

Most people seem to rely too heavily on ProTools input meters which are
not very useful, don't reliably show you a relative level, and rarely
should be going into the yellow area on a 24-bit recording. You are not
going to be even close to "half scale" with a -10 dBV output from tape.
At worst, you'll be getting 23-bits of resolution, but you'll probably
be in the ideal zone where dropping the leg is still too hot considering
the descriptions you've already given.

Theoretically, 24-bit has a whopping 144 dB S/N ratio. At 23-bits,
you've got 138 dB S/N. Your MS-16 probably has a S/N ratio of around
115 dB, which is equivalent to about 19-20 bits. So even if you are
recording into the Digi002R with peaks 20 dB below the maximum (!), you
are still exceeding the S/N ratio of the recorder. I mean, no offense,
but get real. You're making a mountain out of a non-existent molehill.

Cheers,
Trevor de Clercq

In article 1112292263.d0288c21a576130b35f5ce962c5d6a10@teran ews writes:

If you really need that extra bit, you can drop a leg of
the +4 dBu signal which will get you 1 bit less than +4 dBu and 1 bit
more than -10 dBV.

Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. I don't know how the balanced
outputs of the TASCAM MS16 are configured. Chances are pretty good
that they're two op-amps so taking an unbalanced output between pins
2-1 will give you 6 dB less signal than taking a balanced output
between pins 2-3. I don't think that it used transformers, and the
single ended balanced outputs (a la Mackie) weren't in vogue yet.

Most people seem to rely too heavily on ProTools input meters which are
not very useful

And the rest look at the waveform, say "it's only taking up half the
space between the lines" and decide that they're not recoring hot
enough. Too bad they don't scale the graphic waveform display on those
things logrithmically, but this doesn't seem to have occurred to
anyone who builds 'em. (anybody know why they don't?)

Your MS-16 probably has a S/N ratio of around
115 dB, which is equivalent to about 19-20 bits.

Maybe 95 on a good day, with dbx noise reduction.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

in article 1112292263.d0288c21a576130b35f5ce962c5d6a10@terane ws, Trevor de
Clercq at wrote on 3/31/05 10:04 AM:

Theoretically, 24-bit has a whopping 144 dB S/N ratio. At 23-bits,
you've got 138 dB S/N. Your MS-16 probably has a S/N ratio of around
115 dB, which is equivalent to about 19-20 bits. So even if you are
recording into the Digi002R with peaks 20 dB below the maximum (!), you
are still exceeding the S/N ratio of the recorder. I mean, no offense,
but get real. You're making a mountain out of a non-existent molehill.

Thank you for the reality check!

Well, the 12db "pad bay" is built and works fine, so the problem is solved
in my own way, albiet crazy or wrong g! I guess those input meters really
did fool me; I was correlating the visual scale of the meter with bit depth
and obviously that ain't right. I just sort of ass-umed that if a -10
signal was hovering around half-scale that I was nowhere near full bit
depth.

What it really comes down to is that over the last 10 years I've built a
clientele in this area with my sound, and the foundation of that sound is my
MS16 and my Neotek. They like each other, play well together. Dropping the
levels of my MS16 outputs to below the normal alignment spec was not going
to happen just to accomodate a POS Pro Tools LE newcomer g! If recording
a little hot and then trimming it back at the 'tek inputs is part of how I
work then so be it; my clients stand there, tell me they like it, and keep
paying me. So within that context, I think it made the most sense to just
build the pad bay.

As a somewhat amusing side note to those who have followed this saga,
tonight I did an alternate transfer of the project I'm working on right now,
the doom band YOB. I SMPTE-locked back up and dumped the 14 rhythm tracks
over on top of the "original" transferred tracks (to join the vocals we'd
already done on the PT session). Out of necessity, I'd done the first xfer
through the Neotek, switching out the EQ's and setting levels with the
faders. It sounds dang good. Tonight after my session I xferrred a song
the "new way", through the 12db pad bay, as described above and I'm gonna
blind test the client and have him choose the sound he wants. 10 bucks says
it's the one transferred through the board!!! It's silkier and gnarlier and
more fun. Fuuuuuckkkkk....

-jeff

in article znr1112300998k@trad, Mike Rivers at wrote on
3/31/05 3:27 PM:

Your MS-16 probably has a S/N ratio of around
115 dB, which is equivalent to about 19-20 bits.

Maybe 95 on a good day, with dbx noise reduction.

Yeah, but noise is not an issue on this project g!

But i hear you....

-jeff

Last annoying caveat: Pads typically add noise to the signal, even if
it's just a resistor. I'd rather *not* run through a pad than run
through a pad.....But it's probably not a big deal.

Cheers,
Trevor de Clercq

Jeff Olsen wrote:
in article 1112292263.d0288c21a576130b35f5ce962c5d6a10@terane ws, Trevor de
Clercq at wrote on 3/31/05 10:04 AM:


Theoretically, 24-bit has a whopping 144 dB S/N ratio. At 23-bits,
you've got 138 dB S/N. Your MS-16 probably has a S/N ratio of around
115 dB, which is equivalent to about 19-20 bits. So even if you are
recording into the Digi002R with peaks 20 dB below the maximum (!), you
are still exceeding the S/N ratio of the recorder. I mean, no offense,
but get real. You're making a mountain out of a non-existent molehill.


Thank you for the reality check!

Well, the 12db "pad bay" is built and works fine, so the problem is solved
in my own way, albiet crazy or wrong g! I guess those input meters really
did fool me; I was correlating the visual scale of the meter with bit depth
and obviously that ain't right. I just sort of ass-umed that if a -10
signal was hovering around half-scale that I was nowhere near full bit
depth.

What it really comes down to is that over the last 10 years I've built a
clientele in this area with my sound, and the foundation of that sound is my
MS16 and my Neotek. They like each other, play well together. Dropping the
levels of my MS16 outputs to below the normal alignment spec was not going
to happen just to accomodate a POS Pro Tools LE newcomer g! If recording
a little hot and then trimming it back at the 'tek inputs is part of how I
work then so be it; my clients stand there, tell me they like it, and keep
paying me. So within that context, I think it made the most sense to just
build the pad bay.

As a somewhat amusing side note to those who have followed this saga,
tonight I did an alternate transfer of the project I'm working on right now,
the doom band YOB. I SMPTE-locked back up and dumped the 14 rhythm tracks
over on top of the "original" transferred tracks (to join the vocals we'd
already done on the PT session). Out of necessity, I'd done the first xfer
through the Neotek, switching out the EQ's and setting levels with the
faders. It sounds dang good. Tonight after my session I xferrred a song
the "new way", through the 12db pad bay, as described above and I'm gonna
blind test the client and have him choose the sound he wants. 10 bucks says
it's the one transferred through the board!!! It's silkier and gnarlier and
more fun. Fuuuuuckkkkk....

-jeff

Jeff Olsen wrote:

Well, the 12db "pad bay" is built and works fine, so the problem is
solved
in my own way, albiet crazy or wrong g! I guess those input meters
really
did fool me; I was correlating the visual scale of the meter with
bit depth
and obviously that ain't right. I just sort of ass-umed that if a
-10
signal was hovering around half-scale that I was nowhere near full
bit
depth.

What it really comes down to is that over the last 10 years I've
built a
clientele in this area with my sound, and the foundation of that
sound is my
MS16 and my Neotek. They like each other, play well together.
Dropping the
levels of my MS16 outputs to below the normal alignment spec was not
going
to happen just to accomodate a POS Pro Tools LE newcomer g! If
recording
a little hot and then trimming it back at the 'tek inputs is part of
how I
work then so be it; my clients stand there, tell me they like it, and
keep
paying me. So within that context, I think it made the most sense to
just
build the pad bay.

Well if you are happy with a 12db pad, why not just use the -10
I/O since you have a small room and it would be a short cable run? In
the early ADAT days many user found that the -10 analog I/O worked
better with their analog desks than balanced I/O, because they needed
lower levels coming back.

Anyway just out of curiosity, when you send a 0VU level into the
Digi 002 *without* the pads, what dbFS level does that show up at?
Because according to Digi all the ADC noise specs on the 002 anyway,
were measured this way;

"ADC measured -60 dbFS method with a gain setting such that +24 dBu = 0
dBFS at spdif output." (and umm - I don't know what the "-60dbFS
method" is, but at +4 wouldn't that 0VU = -20dBFS?)

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Staff Audio / Fox News / M_AES
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

Jeff Olsen wrote:

Well, the 12db "pad bay" is built and works fine, so the problem is
solved
in my own way, albiet crazy or wrong g! I guess those input meters
really
did fool me; I was correlating the visual scale of the meter with
bit depth
and obviously that ain't right. I just sort of ass-umed that if a
-10
signal was hovering around half-scale that I was nowhere near full
bit
depth.

What it really comes down to is that over the last 10 years I've
built a
clientele in this area with my sound, and the foundation of that
sound is my
MS16 and my Neotek. They like each other, play well together.
Dropping the
levels of my MS16 outputs to below the normal alignment spec was not
going
to happen just to accomodate a POS Pro Tools LE newcomer g! If
recording
a little hot and then trimming it back at the 'tek inputs is part of
how I
work then so be it; my clients stand there, tell me they like it, and
keep
paying me. So within that context, I think it made the most sense to
just
build the pad bay.

Well if you are happy with a 12db pad, why not just use the -10
I/O since you have a small room and it would be a short cable run? In
the early ADAT days many user found that the -10 analog I/O worked
better with their analog desks than balanced I/O, because they needed
lower levels coming back.

Anyway just out of curiosity, when you send a 0VU level into the
Digi 002 *without* the pads, what dbFS level does that show up at?
Because according to Digi all the ADC noise specs on the 002 anyway,
were measured this way;

"ADC measured -60 dbFS method with a gain setting such that +24 dBu = 0
dBFS at spdif output." (and umm - I don't know what the "-60dbFS
method" is, but at +4 wouldn't that 0VU = -20dBFS?)

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Staff Audio / Fox News / M_AES
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits