In nearly every digital recording I make, the background noise is loudest
at the very bottom of the spectrum. 0-40 Hz can contain more signal than
40-20K Hz.

Playing with the rolloff filtering today, I found that starting the rolloff
much higher and using a low filter value yielded a smoother bass.

Whereas I often rolloff below 30 Hz using an 18th order Butterworth filter,
this time I tried from 80 Hz using a 4th order filter. I lost just a touch
of the bass drum, but the remaining sound is more pleasing.

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:55:42 GMT, Carey Carlan
wrote:

Whereas I often rolloff below 30 Hz using an 18th order Butterworth filter,
this time I tried from 80 Hz using a 4th order filter. I lost just a touch
of the bass drum, but the remaining sound is more pleasing.

When I was running a so-so "demo" room (note: I did NOT say studio) I
ended up doing similar stuff.

Of course, you understand that room crap is cumulative... and you have
figured out one way to help 'de-accumulate' it. However, you mention
losing some kick drum in the process, or at the least, some of the
kick's sound you would prefer to keep. If you can apply your filtering
on a per channel basis or, barring that, use subgrouping to _not_
filter the kick (I have no idea what your setup is), you will probably
find that the room garbage is not nearly the issue that it is when all
channels are unfiltered. Sometimes, I would rolloff the kick but not
bass guitar, other times I would rolloff the bass guitar but wouldn't
filter the kick, sometimes I would leave the keyboards untouched...
and various combinations thereof. Experimentation with matching a
tune's feel to the above and other options is key.

I found that, even in an annoying sounding room, some tracks still
work wonderfully if they remain unmodified... as long as the majority
of the stuff is tweaked.

There are certainly other ways to help keep the bad room ju-ju from
accumulating, but those are mostly dependent upon your method of
tracking.


====================
Tracy Wintermute

Rushcreek Ranch
====================

I use a highpass filter on everything I record except the bass, kick
drum and sometimes floor tom. I'm recording in a home basement that's
only slightly treated.

Tracy Wintermute wrote in
:

Of course, you understand that room crap is cumulative... and you have
figured out one way to help 'de-accumulate' it. However, you mention
losing some kick drum in the process, or at the least, some of the
kick's sound you would prefer to keep. If you can apply your filtering
on a per channel basis or, barring that, use subgrouping to _not_
filter the kick (I have no idea what your setup is), you will probably
find that the room garbage is not nearly the issue that it is when all
channels are unfiltered. Sometimes, I would rolloff the kick but not
bass guitar, other times I would rolloff the bass guitar but wouldn't
filter the kick, sometimes I would leave the keyboards untouched...
and various combinations thereof. Experimentation with matching a
tune's feel to the above and other options is key.

Clarification. It was a bass drum (5 feet across) in a wind ensemble live
on stage, not a multitracked drum kit. I don't have to worry about
accumulated room effects when recording live concerts, but your comments
are still valid in that environment.

I did something I don't recommend. I looked at the frequency response of a
quiet moment in the concert and "reversed the curve" in my filtering.

Carey Carlan wrote:
In nearly every digital recording I make, the background noise is loudest
at the very bottom of the spectrum. 0-40 Hz can contain more signal than
40-20K Hz.

And, I bet you can feel it in the room too. Often it's more a matter of
feeling than hearing, and almost always it's an HVAC issue of some kind,
either conducted noise or directly wind. Often you will find some places
in the room are okay and some are terrible.

Playing with the rolloff filtering today, I found that starting the rolloff
much higher and using a low filter value yielded a smoother bass.

Whereas I often rolloff below 30 Hz using an 18th order Butterworth filter,
this time I tried from 80 Hz using a 4th order filter. I lost just a touch
of the bass drum, but the remaining sound is more pleasing.

You gotta do what you gotta do.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Tracy Wintermute wrote in
:

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:48:07 GMT, Carey Carlan
wrote:

Clarification. It was a bass drum (5 feet across) in a wind ensemble
live on stage, not a multitracked drum kit.

Oh..... NEVER MIND!

A 4th order filter rolling off at 80 Hz wouldn't have much effect on the
punch of a kick drum, would it? Most of the energy is right around 80 Hz.

Down 12 dB at 55 Hz, 24 dB at 37 Hz.

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:48:07 GMT, Carey Carlan
wrote:

Clarification. It was a bass drum (5 feet across) in a wind ensemble live
on stage, not a multitracked drum kit.

Oh..... NEVER MIND!


====================
Tracy Wintermute

Rushcreek Ranch
====================

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 00:48:03 GMT, Carey Carlan
wrote:

A 4th order filter rolling off at 80 Hz wouldn't have much effect on the
punch of a kick drum, would it?

You said you "lost just a touch of the bass drum". You mentioned
nothing about 'punch', nor did I. That being said, 'punch' - probably
not; 'just a touch' - it certainly can happen... thus, my post.

Now, maybe it's a regional thing, but I've often heard of kick drum
being referred to as a bass drum (but of course not the other way
around), perhaps you haven't. I did state that I had no idea what your
setup was.. I obviously also didn't know that your source material was
a live ensemble, perhaps on location. My crystal ball is in the shop,
and the parts are on back order. g

Sorry to have wasted your time with my posting of personal experiences
in an attempt to provoke thoughts about experimentation that could
lead to differing results, when you were (I think) explaining the
effects of various _types_ of filtering in a specific situation.
My bad.


====================
Tracy Wintermute

Rushcreek Ranch
====================

Tracy Wintermute wrote in
:

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 00:48:03 GMT, Carey Carlan
wrote:

A 4th order filter rolling off at 80 Hz wouldn't have much effect on
the
punch of a kick drum, would it?

You said you "lost just a touch of the bass drum". You mentioned
nothing about 'punch', nor did I. That being said, 'punch' - probably
not; 'just a touch' - it certainly can happen... thus, my post.

The point was that a concert bass drum has energy 'way down there to 20
Hz or lower. A kick drum really doesn't make much noise down there, does
it?

Sorry to have wasted your time with my posting of personal experiences
in an attempt to provoke thoughts about experimentation that could
lead to differing results, when you were (I think) explaining the
effects of various _types_ of filtering in a specific situation.
My bad.

Nonsense. Don't apologize. The issue is still relevant to the group.
The fact that I gave no background merely widened the topic.

In a bad room with multitracking, do you regularly apply a "negative
curve" to the recording to limit room effects?

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:43:46 GMT, Carey Carlan
wrote:

The point was that a concert bass drum has energy 'way down there to 20
Hz or lower. A kick drum really doesn't make much noise down there, does
it?

Not likely, at least not IME. However, often there is 'something'
between about 45-80 Hz, again, IME. Put a different way; when I've
rolled off at around 80 and below, I can hear a difference from the
unfiltered kick in most situations. Whether or not that 'something' is
useful or even desirable depends, to me, upon how the filtered vs
unfiltered sound fits with the tune/mix.

In a bad room with multitracking, do you regularly apply a "negative
curve" to the recording to limit room effects?

To be honest, I hadn't even thought about that until you brought it
up. In my crap room, I tried all kinds of stuff on a track-by-track
basis to help minimize crap room accumulation, but nothing globally.


====================
Tracy Wintermute

Rushcreek Ranch
====================