I work at a video post production house that has just set up a booth for
vo's. In the past, they've always taken them ISDN or via the
net...occationally a client will want a talent to come in and record here.

That said, no one here is exceptional with setting up the gear. Many have a
good understanding of preamp, compression, eq, etc...but I'm still not
hearing that national agency quality when it's mixed. It's good, we're
striving for excellent. We have a great setup with waves & various plugins
for big in your face promo / trailer type stuff when the vo is already
recorded...now we're trying to get the lighter more natural commercial sound
right when it's in house...but still have the voice pop through well.

We bought great gear after the recommendation of a guy that know what he's
doing. Problem is, he's on the other coast and it's not easy to tweak with
someone 4000 miles away.

Here's what we have:

Great River mp-2nv mic pre
Crane Song Trakker
EL8 Distressor

Mics to choose from: Neumann U87 and TLM103, Sennheiser MKH 416. Other
possible gear: various eq's, some LA4's, TC Electronic Finalizer, some
aphex compellors, and a few RNC's.

A couple quick questions: the U87 sounds similar to the 103. The U87 also
has the low rolloff and different patterns. For commercial vo, would you
use the rolloff on an average male voice? I've seen many of the commercial
houses in LA using the 416. Do you often roll off some bass (how much,
where?), and where should we look to eq for a nice midrange? 6-10 db of
compression seems fine for most projects. Do they boost the heck out of the
highs or just do a mid bump?

I'll take your advice if you think we should just roll the preamp into the
workstation and process it all internally. Waves renaissance channel seems
to get praise...we have it and could use it. I'm sure I could apply the
advice to the plugin.

Thanks for any help.
Marc

"Mix Head" wrote in message
news:cYXZd.6814$mq2.5593@trnddc08...
I work at a video post production house that has just set up a booth for
vo's. In the past, they've always taken them ISDN or via the
net...occationally a client will want a talent to come in and record here.

That said, no one here is exceptional with setting up the gear. Many have
a good understanding of preamp, compression, eq, etc...but I'm still not
hearing that national agency quality when it's mixed. It's good, we're
striving for excellent. We have a great setup with waves & various
plugins for big in your face promo / trailer type stuff when the vo is
already recorded...now we're trying to get the lighter more natural
commercial sound right when it's in house...but still have the voice pop
through well.

We bought great gear after the recommendation of a guy that know what he's
doing. Problem is, he's on the other coast and it's not easy to tweak
with someone 4000 miles away.

Here's what we have:

Great River mp-2nv mic pre
Crane Song Trakker
EL8 Distressor

Mics to choose from: Neumann U87 and TLM103, Sennheiser MKH 416. Other
possible gear: various eq's, some LA4's, TC Electronic Finalizer, some
aphex compellors, and a few RNC's.

A couple quick questions: the U87 sounds similar to the 103. The U87
also has the low rolloff and different patterns. For commercial vo, would
you use the rolloff on an average male voice? I've seen many of the
commercial houses in LA using the 416. Do you often roll off some bass
(how much, where?), and where should we look to eq for a nice midrange?
6-10 db of compression seems fine for most projects. Do they boost the
heck out of the highs or just do a mid bump?

I'll take your advice if you think we should just roll the preamp into the
workstation and process it all internally. Waves renaissance channel
seems to get praise...we have it and could use it. I'm sure I could apply
the advice to the plugin.

Thanks for any help.
Marc


It would be hard to find fault with your equipment. I opt for a little
compression (2 to 4 db) on the way to the workstation. I do any additional
processing including EQ in software. How about the room the talent occupies
while recording. If it is really, really dead, that could be part of the
problem. Why? First, because the talent cannot hear themselves without
using headphones, the way they use their voice and their performance is
affected. Second, many voices benefit from getting the mic backed off a
bit; the bass build-up on cardioid mics, when worked tight, is often not
useful or pleasant. Of course, other voices benefit from tight mic
placement. Next, are the performers of the same caliber as those you are
comparing them with? Finally, how does the vocal sound change once in the
mix? When the music and effects are not properly chosen and placed for a
particular voice, it can be difficult to overcome. In these cases the
tendency is to use more and more aggressive processing to get the voice to
cut through. The better choice is to leave room in the mix for the voice.
In any case, I doubt that your problem lies in the signal path.

Steve King

Opinions are like assholes -- everyone has one. Here are some of mine. Uh,
opinions. Consider them starting points.

Part of what "Mix Head" wrote:

That said, no one here is exceptional with setting up the gear. Many have
a
good understanding of preamp, compression, eq, etc...but I'm still not
hearing that national agency quality when it's mixed. It's good, we're
striving for excellent. We have a great setup with waves & various
plugins
for big in your face promo / trailer type stuff when the vo is already
recorded...now we're trying to get the lighter more natural commercial
sound
right when it's in house...but still have the voice pop through well.

Here's what we have:

Great River mp-2nv mic pre
Crane Song Trakker
EL8 Distressor

Mics to choose from: Neumann U87 and TLM103, Sennheiser MKH 416. Other
possible gear: various eq's, some LA4's, TC Electronic Finalizer, some
aphex compellors, and a few RNC's.

With all that gear you're still not getting a stellar sound? You've got the
tools.

A couple quick questions: the U87 sounds similar to the 103.

Not really. The TLM-103 is brighter, bassier, and has crisper transient
response; so it sounds not only brighter and more open on top, but also
hyped on the bottom. It's much more sensitive to plosives and rumble.

The U87 also
has the low rolloff and different patterns. For commercial vo, would you
use the rolloff on an average male voice?

No. Never. If I do rolloff the bass, I do it in software so it can be
un-done. Bass response has the biggest impact on imaging, and I like to
have my options open when mixing.

I've seen many of the commercial
houses in LA using the 416. Do you often roll off some bass (how much,
where?)

With the 416, never, because I always use it at more than 4", and most often
at 6" - 8". Many prefer it at 18" - 2' for a more natural sound if your
acoustics allow that. Some guys like it closer than 4". It's a matter of
desired imaging and personal taste. In my case, a lot of proximity effect
is not my friend.

...and where should we look to eq for a nice midrange?

On the U-87, I like +4dB @ 4kHz and +6dB @ 12.5kHz. On the TLM-103 and 416,
+4dB @ 3kHz. Using the TLM-103, I almost always apply a software low-cut at
40 - 60Hz. My personal opinion is that Neumann's leaving out an extreme-low
garbage filter on the TLM-103 was a huge mistake.

...6-10 db of
compression seems fine for most projects.

Maybe. It depends on which compressor you're using and the sound you're
going for; you can't really generalize there. Six dB of compression on an
LA-4 sounds different than 6dB on an RNC and different still on a Compellor.

Do they boost the heck out of the highs or just do a mid bump?

Some do, it depends on the mic and your taste. Some boost the everloving
**** out of the highs and then use a de-esser. I personally don't work that
way. You're going for a more "natural" sound arent' you? To me, that means
moderation. For many years I just did a mid-bump -- but I was using a very
bright Beyer MC740 at the time. I'd do (and did do)the same with a 414EB or
TL-II.

I'll take your advice if you think we should just roll the preamp into the
workstation and process it all internally. Waves renaissance channel
seems
to get praise...we have it and could use it. I'm sure I could apply the
advice to the plugin.

That may be a good short-term solution, but obviously you've got a lot of
great hardware and you haven't learned it. You might consider recording
everything flat with no compression for the time being, and doing all
processing in software. Then later when you've got some downtime, run the
dry voice tracks thru your hardware chain and experiment -- while you're not
on clients' time, and while bad choices can still be un-done.

Most guys on here would advocate starting from zero on every project and
tailoring every parameter on a per-project basis. That's fine if one guy
with very consistent ears is controlling the processing. I say -- and many
will disagree -- that if you have *multiple* hands and ears on your audio,
you can achieve more consistency if you:

Choose one "one size fits most" mic,
Choose one compressor and set of compression parameters, and
Choose one *simple* EQ curve that makes nearly everyone sound transparent
yet clear and crisp.

It'll take some learning, some work, and plenty of patience to get there.
And when you do, producers will really appreciate it and come to you for
dependable sound quality. Back when I was in the audio post business
working for someone else, I had limited gear but was able to come up with a
combination that only occasionally needed compensation for an individual
talent. Even so, the national spots I did still sounded great. Of course,
that's all relative, given that some of what passes for network-quality
audio sounds like crap.

You have many more options and your processing gear is far superior to the
tools I was given. Of what you have available, my personal preference would
be to emphasize transparency. And to me, that would mean using the 416 at
6" into the Great River, followed by the Trakker, and your best parametric
EQ set with no more than 2 gentle bumps and no boost or cut greater than
6dB. But it's all a matter of personal taste and your ears. Proper use of
just about any of what you've listed could sound fantastic. It's up to you
to learn the gear. Got good monitors and a quiet room to hear them?

Good luck and happy editing. You can check out some of my work at
http://www.jeffjasper.com. YMMV. Mine did and does.

Jeff Jasper, VO guy
Jeff Jasper Productions, West Funroe, La.

The gear is great, if you can't get a good sound with that gear in a good
iso booth there is something else wrong. The low rolloff is completely
subjective and would depend entirely on the voice and the context of the vo,
that goes the same for any other EQ adjustments, although I don't see any
harm in using a 75hz rolloff....if you're mixing the vo w/ needle drop music
then you should adjust the EQ (or not) to make it sound right with the
music, which will vary for classical, rock, jazz, easy listening, etc.

If you really want the best sounding product money can buy, all the gear in
the world won't makeup for having incredible voice talent. A good one hour
read can easily cost $1000 for the voice talent alone (engineer and producer
not included) but you will get an incredible sounding VO even on mediocre
equipment.....just make sure your producer is experienced with VO's and
knows how to coax the best read out of the talent without ****ing him/her
off. Good luck!

--

Jonny Durango

"Patrick was a saint. I ain't."

http://www.jdurango.com



"Mix Head" wrote in message
news:cYXZd.6814$mq2.5593@trnddc08...
I work at a video post production house that has just set up a booth for
vo's. In the past, they've always taken them ISDN or via the
net...occationally a client will want a talent to come in and record here.

That said, no one here is exceptional with setting up the gear. Many have
a
good understanding of preamp, compression, eq, etc...but I'm still not
hearing that national agency quality when it's mixed. It's good, we're
striving for excellent. We have a great setup with waves & various
plugins
for big in your face promo / trailer type stuff when the vo is already
recorded...now we're trying to get the lighter more natural commercial
sound
right when it's in house...but still have the voice pop through well.

We bought great gear after the recommendation of a guy that know what he's
doing. Problem is, he's on the other coast and it's not easy to tweak
with
someone 4000 miles away.

Here's what we have:

Great River mp-2nv mic pre
Crane Song Trakker
EL8 Distressor

Mics to choose from: Neumann U87 and TLM103, Sennheiser MKH 416. Other
possible gear: various eq's, some LA4's, TC Electronic Finalizer, some
aphex compellors, and a few RNC's.

A couple quick questions: the U87 sounds similar to the 103. The U87
also
has the low rolloff and different patterns. For commercial vo, would you
use the rolloff on an average male voice? I've seen many of the
commercial
houses in LA using the 416. Do you often roll off some bass (how much,
where?), and where should we look to eq for a nice midrange? 6-10 db of
compression seems fine for most projects. Do they boost the heck out of
the
highs or just do a mid bump?

I'll take your advice if you think we should just roll the preamp into the
workstation and process it all internally. Waves renaissance channel
seems
to get praise...we have it and could use it. I'm sure I could apply the
advice to the plugin.

Thanks for any help.
Marc

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 20:00:22 -0800, "Jonny Durango"
wrote:


If you really want the best sounding product money can buy, all the gear in
the world won't makeup for having incredible voice talent. A good one hour
read can easily cost $1000 for the voice talent alone

That sounds a little excessive unless you are hiring a really famous
actor. I doubt the average audio book recording budgets $12,000 just
for the vocal talent.

Al

That sounds a little excessive unless you are hiring a really famous
actor. I doubt the average audio book recording budgets $12,000 just
for the vocal talent.

True, but I don't think the original poster was asking about audio books...

"for big in your face promo / trailer type stuff when the vo is already
recorded...now we're trying to get the lighter more natural commercial sound
right when it's in house...but still have the voice pop through well."

Sounds to me like he's going for a high-quality commercial sound, which can
definately cost $1000 for a one-hour read

--

Jonny Durango

"Patrick was a saint. I ain't."

http://www.jdurango.com



"play on" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 20:00:22 -0800, "Jonny Durango"
wrote:


If you really want the best sounding product money can buy, all the gear
in
the world won't makeup for having incredible voice talent. A good one
hour
read can easily cost $1000 for the voice talent alone

That sounds a little excessive unless you are hiring a really famous
actor. I doubt the average audio book recording budgets $12,000 just
for the vocal talent.

Al

"Jonny Durango" wrote in message
...
That sounds a little excessive unless you are hiring a really famous
actor. I doubt the average audio book recording budgets $12,000 just
for the vocal talent.

True, but I don't think the original poster was asking about audio
books...

"for big in your face promo / trailer type stuff when the vo is already
recorded...now we're trying to get the lighter more natural commercial
sound
right when it's in house...but still have the voice pop through well."

Sounds to me like he's going for a high-quality commercial sound, which
can
definately cost $1000 for a one-hour read


The going rate for a one hour studio session doing what's commonly called
industrial video narration ranges from $450 to $650 in Chicago. I have
booked talent in both NYC and LA at those rates as well. I'm talking
experienced, near top of the food chain, AFTRA/SAG performers, but the very
large non-union talent pool doesn't charge much less these days. Ty could
jump in here and provide rates for Baltimore/Wash. DC. Of course, there are
performers who either by celebrity or by a really, really exceptional voice
command higher prices, just as there are performers in every market who will
work for far less. I once had to pay $4,000 for Burgess Meredith to narrate
a high-end corporate image video plus a limo to pick him up and return him
to his Malibu home. (He was worth it.) On the other hand, a producer, who
cringed at my rate for some radio spots for a tertiary market, said that he
regularly hired local station announcers for $25 per hour to do everything
he could throw at them.

Steve King

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:57:55 -0500, Steve King wrote
(in article ):

"Jonny Durango" wrote in message
...
That sounds a little excessive unless you are hiring a really famous
actor. I doubt the average audio book recording budgets $12,000 just
for the vocal talent.

True, but I don't think the original poster was asking about audio
books...

"for big in your face promo / trailer type stuff when the vo is already
recorded...now we're trying to get the lighter more natural commercial
sound
right when it's in house...but still have the voice pop through well."

Sounds to me like he's going for a high-quality commercial sound, which
can
definately cost $1000 for a one-hour read


The going rate for a one hour studio session doing what's commonly called
industrial video narration ranges from $450 to $650 in Chicago. I have
booked talent in both NYC and LA at those rates as well. I'm talking
experienced, near top of the food chain, AFTRA/SAG performers, but the very
large non-union talent pool doesn't charge much less these days. Ty could
jump in here and provide rates for Baltimore/Wash. DC. Of course, there are
performers who either by celebrity or by a really, really exceptional voice
command higher prices, just as there are performers in every market who will
work for far less. I once had to pay $4,000 for Burgess Meredith to narrate
a high-end corporate image video plus a limo to pick him up and return him
to his Malibu home. (He was worth it.) On the other hand, a producer, who
cringed at my rate for some radio spots for a tertiary market, said that he
regularly hired local station announcers for $25 per hour to do everything
he could throw at them.

Steve King

We're doing spots for free down here, but the studio rate is half a million
an hour.

Regards,

Ty





-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com