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#1
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How to get that "suoer compressed drums in a big room sound"
HI,
I haven't asked anything in a while, but I have something that's been wearing me out lately. I've recorded drums onto 3 tracks, with 3 mics--one for kick, and 2 overheads placed behind the drummer kind of off the sides, looking over each shoulder. The room has hard wood floors, and wood paneling on the walls. Basically what I want is that super compressed rooom sound--think of the intro to that Iggy Pop song "Lust for Life." My problem is everything I try makes the cymbals WAY too loud and overbearing. I am working in Nuendo and have plug-ins only.. Can anyone offer any advice as to how to go about getting that sound with what I already have recorded? thanks in advance Will J. |
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#2
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William J. wrote:
I haven't asked anything in a while, but I have something that's been wearing me out lately. I've recorded drums onto 3 tracks, with 3 mics--one for kick, and 2 overheads placed behind the drummer kind of off the sides, looking over each shoulder. The room has hard wood floors, and wood paneling on the walls. Basically what I want is that super compressed rooom sound--think of the intro to that Iggy Pop song "Lust for Life." My problem is everything I try makes the cymbals WAY too loud and overbearing. I am working in Nuendo and have plug-ins only.. Can anyone offer any advice as to how to go about getting that sound with what I already have recorded? No. Move the overheads and retrack. Put a finger in one ear and listen with the other. Move your head around. Where you get a good balance of tom, snare, and cymbal, put the mikes. Record a bit and listen. Pull the mikes back or move them forward as needed. Raise them up for a little more cymbal and lower them for a little less. Get the sound in the room. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#4
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Compressed Drums
Drum compressing and limiting is often used to control dynamic problems and/or create a desired effect when I mix. When using a live performance I tend to get excessive dynamics. For example: when the drummer hits a kick drum and crash cymbal on the downbeat of a chorus, even though the transient is of short time duration it will limit you into how much level you can translate to a CD in mastering. This transient causes headroom problems in getting them to sound even in a mix and maestering effectively. Because the duration of the transient is so short (2-8ms) it is hard to correct this dynamic problem through manual fader riding. A good solution for this is to bus all the drums to two tracks and bring this two track stereo sub-mix of the drums back into 2 more additional inputs. At this stage you can insert limiting to control the transient. I often incorporate an attack time of less then 1millisecond due to the transient nature of the envelope. The release time will also be very fast (10-15ms) so the only transient is affected and the rest of the performance is left untouched. A limiting ratio of 8:1 or higher usually works for me. Remember to allow headroom so some amount of the transient will pass through, rather than being hard limited, which will maintain some dynamics. The signal that I am limiting is usually 2-8ms and is really only mid-high end noise, not much tone happenning yet. Some people say that the musical or resonance part of a signal does not kick in until about 20ms. I do this by fiirst setting a limiting ratio, with a fast attack time and a fast release time. Next, I set the threshold to a setting where the limited audio information is engaged so that I know that it is working but sounding transparent to the ear. The goal here is to limit only this fast transient without affecting the resonance of the drum sound. Another advantageous use in dynamic control is getting my drums to sound punchier. This is achieved by first eliminating the random transients and then inserting compression with a ratio 4:1 to 8:1. The attack time is anywhere between 20-50 ms which allows the louder attacks to pass hrough unaffected. Once the attack is cleared the compressor will kick in, lowering the sustain part of the drum signal. Next, I set the release time (100-200ms) so the sustain part of the signal is compressed and decays until the approach of the next transient. When I sub-mix the drums, I also insert the stereo link function on the comp/limiter. In dealing with dynamic control on separate drums allow yourself to create a certain characteristics to achieve great sounds. With snare drum a common problem is getting a good attack but with no sustain which causes the drum to sound inconsistent and weak. The problem here is that even though the attack of the drum is heard on a consistent basis the length and level of the sustain changes randomly. In dealing with this problem split the snare drum over two input channels. Over the first input try to maximize the transient quality of the snare drum by utilizing transparent limiting and EQ in the mid range and high end. On the other channel first gate the signal so all you hear is the snare drum. Next insert a limiter with a very fast attack and very fast release time. The goal here is to limit the attack of the signal heavily. This allows the sustain to be consistent in level and adds more length in duration. To add more body to the sound, EQ in the low mid range and low end. Now mix in this signal with the more transient snare drum signal which will allow you to add in more body to the snare drum that will make it sound bigger and more consistent. In effect, you are decreasing the dynamic range between the level of the transient nature of the drum and the sustain properties of the drum. |
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#5
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"Matrixmusic" wrote in message oups.com... Compressed Drums Drum compressing and limiting is often used to control dynamic problems and/or create a desired effect when I mix. When using a live performance I tend to get excessive dynamics. For example: when the drummer hits a kick drum and crash cymbal on the downbeat of a chorus, even though the transient is of short time duration it will limit you into how much level you can translate to a CD in mastering. This transient causes headroom problems in getting them to sound even in a mix and maestering effectively. Because the duration of the transient is so short (2-8ms) it is hard to correct this dynamic problem through manual fader riding. A good solution for this is to bus all the drums to two tracks and bring this two track stereo sub-mix of the drums back into 2 more additional inputs. At this stage you can insert limiting to control the transient. I often incorporate an attack time of less then 1millisecond due to the transient nature of the envelope. The release time will also be very fast (10-15ms) so the only transient is affected and the rest of the performance is left untouched. A limiting ratio of 8:1 or higher usually works for me. Remember to allow headroom so some amount of the transient will pass through, rather than being hard limited, which will maintain some dynamics. The signal that I am limiting is usually 2-8ms and is really only mid-high end noise, not much tone happenning yet. Some people say that the musical or resonance part of a signal does not kick in until about 20ms. I do this by fiirst setting a limiting ratio, with a fast attack time and a fast release time. Next, I set the threshold to a setting where the limited audio information is engaged so that I know that it is working but sounding transparent to the ear. The goal here is to limit only this fast transient without affecting the resonance of the drum sound. Another advantageous use in dynamic control is getting my drums to sound punchier. This is achieved by first eliminating the random transients and then inserting compression with a ratio 4:1 to 8:1. The attack time is anywhere between 20-50 ms which allows the louder attacks to pass hrough unaffected. Once the attack is cleared the compressor will kick in, lowering the sustain part of the drum signal. Next, I set the release time (100-200ms) so the sustain part of the signal is compressed and decays until the approach of the next transient. When I sub-mix the drums, I also insert the stereo link function on the comp/limiter. In dealing with dynamic control on separate drums allow yourself to create a certain characteristics to achieve great sounds. With snare drum a common problem is getting a good attack but with no sustain which causes the drum to sound inconsistent and weak. The problem here is that even though the attack of the drum is heard on a consistent basis the length and level of the sustain changes randomly. In dealing with this problem split the snare drum over two input channels. Over the first input try to maximize the transient quality of the snare drum by utilizing transparent limiting and EQ in the mid range and high end. On the other channel first gate the signal so all you hear is the snare drum. Next insert a limiter with a very fast attack and very fast release time. The goal here is to limit the attack of the signal heavily. This allows the sustain to be consistent in level and adds more length in duration. To add more body to the sound, EQ in the low mid range and low end. Now mix in this signal with the more transient snare drum signal which will allow you to add in more body to the snare drum that will make it sound bigger and more consistent. In effect, you are decreasing the dynamic range between the level of the transient nature of the drum and the sustain properties of the drum. ^ | | This is all well & good, but the proble is the balance captured by the positions of the original mics - too cymbal heavy. Lower the cymbals, point the mics away, whatever works for what you are wanting to hear - then you shouldnt need to do all the stuff written above.....and if your drummer beats the heck out of the cymbals, instead of 'playing' them , then you are probably sunk.....remind him that *he* controls the balance of the elements in the kit by the way he hits them. good luck! Geoff |
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#6
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I had a client bring in drum trax that were cymbal heavy and could not be
re-recorded. I had limited success duplicating the trax and using high/low pass filters to try and separate the cymbals from the rest of the drums. Cymbals lost some character and I needed to add midi kik & snare to bring the trax to life which was alot of work but made for a decent mix. Neil R "Geoff Duncan" wrote in message ... "Matrixmusic" wrote in message oups.com... Compressed Drums Drum compressing and limiting is often used to control dynamic problems and/or create a desired effect when I mix. When using a live performance I tend to get excessive dynamics. For example: when the drummer hits a kick drum and crash cymbal on the downbeat of a chorus, even though the transient is of short time duration it will limit you into how much level you can translate to a CD in mastering. This transient causes headroom problems in getting them to sound even in a mix and maestering effectively. Because the duration of the transient is so short (2-8ms) it is hard to correct this dynamic problem through manual fader riding. A good solution for this is to bus all the drums to two tracks and bring this two track stereo sub-mix of the drums back into 2 more additional inputs. At this stage you can insert limiting to control the transient. I often incorporate an attack time of less then 1millisecond due to the transient nature of the envelope. The release time will also be very fast (10-15ms) so the only transient is affected and the rest of the performance is left untouched. A limiting ratio of 8:1 or higher usually works for me. Remember to allow headroom so some amount of the transient will pass through, rather than being hard limited, which will maintain some dynamics. The signal that I am limiting is usually 2-8ms and is really only mid-high end noise, not much tone happenning yet. Some people say that the musical or resonance part of a signal does not kick in until about 20ms. I do this by fiirst setting a limiting ratio, with a fast attack time and a fast release time. Next, I set the threshold to a setting where the limited audio information is engaged so that I know that it is working but sounding transparent to the ear. The goal here is to limit only this fast transient without affecting the resonance of the drum sound. Another advantageous use in dynamic control is getting my drums to sound punchier. This is achieved by first eliminating the random transients and then inserting compression with a ratio 4:1 to 8:1. The attack time is anywhere between 20-50 ms which allows the louder attacks to pass hrough unaffected. Once the attack is cleared the compressor will kick in, lowering the sustain part of the drum signal. Next, I set the release time (100-200ms) so the sustain part of the signal is compressed and decays until the approach of the next transient. When I sub-mix the drums, I also insert the stereo link function on the comp/limiter. In dealing with dynamic control on separate drums allow yourself to create a certain characteristics to achieve great sounds. With snare drum a common problem is getting a good attack but with no sustain which causes the drum to sound inconsistent and weak. The problem here is that even though the attack of the drum is heard on a consistent basis the length and level of the sustain changes randomly. In dealing with this problem split the snare drum over two input channels. Over the first input try to maximize the transient quality of the snare drum by utilizing transparent limiting and EQ in the mid range and high end. On the other channel first gate the signal so all you hear is the snare drum. Next insert a limiter with a very fast attack and very fast release time. The goal here is to limit the attack of the signal heavily. This allows the sustain to be consistent in level and adds more length in duration. To add more body to the sound, EQ in the low mid range and low end. Now mix in this signal with the more transient snare drum signal which will allow you to add in more body to the snare drum that will make it sound bigger and more consistent. In effect, you are decreasing the dynamic range between the level of the transient nature of the drum and the sustain properties of the drum. ^ | | This is all well & good, but the proble is the balance captured by the positions of the original mics - too cymbal heavy. Lower the cymbals, point the mics away, whatever works for what you are wanting to hear - then you shouldnt need to do all the stuff written above.....and if your drummer beats the heck out of the cymbals, instead of 'playing' them , then you are probably sunk.....remind him that *he* controls the balance of the elements in the kit by the way he hits them. good luck! Geoff |
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#7
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The three mic method is great for a nice old jazz style kit sound. If
you wanted a bigger sound you might have tried more mics. If you have mics on each drum then you don't need to rely so much on the overhead sound. I just did a session where I set up the three mic method you mentioned for a lot of brush work, but add an additional two overheads for a stick number. I eliminated the back mic and used the front one as the main source for the snare sound. The regular overheads captured the cymbals and toms. It worked out pretty well. The best advise I ever got was to know what sound you want in the end and make it sound that way at the beginning. In other words change mics or positions or levels or premps etc... till it sounds right and you won't be trying to "fix it in the mix" A painful lesson I'm still learning when I feel the nervous energy around me and try to expedite things rather than taking the time to get it right. |
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#8
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Scott Dorsey wrote: William J. wrote: I haven't asked anything in a while, but I have something that's been wearing me out lately. I've recorded drums onto 3 tracks, with 3 mics--one for kick, and 2 overheads placed behind the drummer kind of off the sides, looking over each shoulder. The room has hard wood floors, and wood paneling on the walls. Basically what I want is that super compressed rooom sound--think of the intro to that Iggy Pop song "Lust for Life." My problem is everything I try makes the cymbals WAY too loud and overbearing. I am working in Nuendo and have plug-ins only.. Can anyone offer any advice as to how to go about getting that sound with what I already have recorded? No. Move the overheads and retrack. Put a finger in one ear and listen with the other. Move your head around. Where you get a good balance of tom, snare, and cymbal, put the mikes. Record a bit and listen. Pull the mikes back or move them forward as needed. Raise them up for a little more cymbal and lower them for a little less. Get the sound in the room. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." Ditto, and get the drummer to lay of the cymbals a little too. 8 out of 10 times it's the player. Maybe mic from the front of the kit or try the classic three mic technique. http://www.mercenary.com/3micdrumstuf.html |
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#9
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#10
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William J. wrote: HI, I haven't asked anything in a while, but I have something that's been wearing me out lately. I've recorded drums onto 3 tracks, with 3 mics--one for kick, and 2 overheads placed behind the drummer kind of off the sides, looking over each shoulder. The room has hard wood floors, and wood paneling on the walls. Basically what I want is that super compressed rooom sound--think of the intro to that Iggy Pop song "Lust for Life." My problem is everything I try makes the cymbals WAY too loud and overbearing. I am working in Nuendo and have plug-ins only.. Can anyone offer any advice as to how to go about getting that sound with what I already have recorded? thanks in advance Will J. Create a group and use a send on each of your channels (prefade)to create a suitable submix, eq this to taste to reduce the impact of your cymbals. DON'T use the the inbuilt channel eq, use a plugin placed before the compressor. If you've got nothing better use the "Q" plugin. For the compressor, try using Digitalfishfones Blockfish in "complex" mode with really extreme settings, absolutely SMASHING the audio. Fine tuning a very short release time is important here. Bring this hypercompressed group up on the fader so that it's just barely audible. |
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