I am pretty much of an audio-idiot and am turning to rec.audio.pro for
help. I have a small Sound Professionals Dual Channel Microphone
Preamplifier. I use it in conjunction with a small Sony ECM-DS70P
electret condenser microphone, which I plug into the preamp. I then
plug the preamp into an iRiver H-120 digital recorder. The H-120 has no
volume level meter, so I use an external recording level meter
(ISI-RLM-1 from ISI Innovative Specialists), plugged into the headphone
jack, to try to monitor the recording level. I find that when I set the
³external microphone² recording level on the IHP-120 to about 15 (out
of 20), set the preamp on the 29dB gain setting, and turn the level
knob on the preamp to approximately the 2 o¹clock thru 4:30 positions,
I get fairly good results when putting the microphone in front of a
stereo speaker at home or when recording a banjo or an acoustic guitar.
The preamp lets me fine-tune the incoming volume so that I barely get a
green light (with occasional yellow) on the external recording level
meter.

The H-120 manual says that when recording from an external audio
device, the incoming volume level cannot be controlled. Last night I
tried recording a live show by setting my H-120 recorder for Line In
and using a Y-cable from L & R Tape Out on a Mackie mixer to In (a
single jack which works for Line In, Optical In, and Mic In) on the
H-120. Much of the recording is badly distorted.

Can I introduce my microphone preamplifier into this situation to get
some control over the volume going into the H-120? Would it work to
insert the plug from the Mackie Tape Out Y-cable into the input of the
preamp, plug the output of the preamp into the In of the H-120
recorder, and then, using the external recording level meter as a
guide, mess with the gain settings and level control of the preamp to
get a good reading on the recording level meter? Could I, for example,
set the gain on the preamp to zero and turn the level knob to zero, and
then gradually turn up the level knob until I get a green light on the
recording level meter?

Is there perhaps a better type of output on the Mackie mixer to be
using than Tape Out? All I saw was Monitor Line Out (in use) and Mixer
Out L/Mixer Out R.

It is probably obvious that I do not really know what I am talking
about.

Thank you.
T-L

Some questions for you to consider. How do you know that the sound
coming out of the Mixer sounded clean and undistorted? You could have
distorted the sound in that stage.

Are you monitoring your levels in the Mackie carefully? You don't say
what Mackie you are using but my experience with them is that the 0
level on the meters is hotter than what you might expect by about 10
dB. If you are going over he 0 level on the Mackie you could very well
be overdriving the (cheap) input stage of recorder and causing
distortion there or overdriving the AGC (automatic gain control)
circuit and therefore clipping the signal.

Adding your mic pre to the circuit may or may not help because you may
overdrive that circuit with a line level signal from the Mackie as
well. I don't know your mic pre but I doubt you can feed a line level
signal to it without distortion.

Hope this helps

Bill Brophy
Voice overs/ Commercial production

What the real problem here is you have no INHERENT way to KNOW what your
actual record level is on the iRiver (one of which I want, to be in essence
a replacmeent pocket stereo quickie recorder a'la the old $500 Sony Walkman
Pro... Reccomendations?).
You;'re doing a decent workaround by trying to use the OUTPUT to guess the
input but there's no reliable CALIBRATION except listening for when it
distorts, which you could do by LISTENING To the output jack on phones.

Not sure how iRiver makes as you say a "... a single jack which works for
Line In, Optical In, and Mic In..." but for what you're doing, both with the
preamp and the Mackie, is needing to absolutely be sure you're using a LINE
level input on the iRiver. Even then, All Line Levels Are Different and
you;re still in the Guesstimation Zone.
A BIG additional SNAFU here is the manual quote: "... The H-120 manual says
that when recording from an external audio device, the incoming volume level
cannot be controlled..." which says to me that it has an Automatic Gain
Control that is riding gain on the input so you don't have to (or conversely
so you CAN:T) and all you;re dealing with in 'setting' levels' is only
making sure you don;t shove a signal into that jack that's so hot it
overloads the INPUT circuit. Once you;re clear of THAt then the recorder's
little AGC will do it's own thing and undo whatever voliume adjstments YOU
might try to make.

You might try spending an afternoon with the Mackie and running a tone or
music signal into it so that the meters show LOUD but not clipping and then,
ideally if the Mackie has a HEADPHONE OUT that has it's OWN VOLUME COMNTROL
that does NOT affect what the meters are doing, plug THAT into the recorder
and play around till you find a headphone-volume setting that does NOT
overload the iRiver when the meters are up there. MARK this setting (or
tape/glue it down!) and then you should be able to trust your meters at
least in that you get as decent a recording as the iRiver will allow.


On 3/13/05 7:15 AM, in article ,
"Trent-Lion" wrote:

I am pretty much of an audio-idiot and am turning to rec.audio.pro for
help. I have a small Sound Professionals Dual Channel Microphone
Preamplifier. I use it in conjunction with a small Sony ECM-DS70P
electret condenser microphone, which I plug into the preamp. I then
plug the preamp into an iRiver H-120 digital recorder. The H-120 has no
volume level meter, so I use an external recording level meter
(ISI-RLM-1 from ISI Innovative Specialists), plugged into the headphone
jack, to try to monitor the recording level. I find that when I set the
³external microphone² recording level on the IHP-120 to about 15 (out
of 20), set the preamp on the 29dB gain setting, and turn the level
knob on the preamp to approximately the 2 o¹clock thru 4:30 positions,
I get fairly good results when putting the microphone in front of a
stereo speaker at home or when recording a banjo or an acoustic guitar.
The preamp lets me fine-tune the incoming volume so that I barely get a
green light (with occasional yellow) on the external recording level
meter.

The H-120 manual says that when recording from an external audio
device, the incoming volume level cannot be controlled. Last night I
tried recording a live show by setting my H-120 recorder for Line In
and using a Y-cable from L & R Tape Out on a Mackie mixer to In (a
single jack which works for Line In, Optical In, and Mic In) on the
H-120. Much of the recording is badly distorted.

Can I introduce my microphone preamplifier into this situation to get
some control over the volume going into the H-120? Would it work to
insert the plug from the Mackie Tape Out Y-cable into the input of the
preamp, plug the output of the preamp into the In of the H-120
recorder, and then, using the external recording level meter as a
guide, mess with the gain settings and level control of the preamp to
get a good reading on the recording level meter? Could I, for example,
set the gain on the preamp to zero and turn the level knob to zero, and
then gradually turn up the level knob until I get a green light on the
recording level meter?

Is there perhaps a better type of output on the Mackie mixer to be
using than Tape Out? All I saw was Monitor Line Out (in use) and Mixer
Out L/Mixer Out R.

It is probably obvious that I do not really know what I am talking
about.

Thank you.
T-L

In article writes:

The H-120 manual says that when recording from an external audio
device, the incoming volume level cannot be controlled.

This is why nobody uses a recorder like this for recording without
figuring things out first.

Last night I
tried recording a live show by setting my H-120 recorder for Line In
and using a Y-cable from L & R Tape Out on a Mackie mixer to In (a
single jack which works for Line In, Optical In, and Mic In) on the
H-120. Much of the recording is badly distorted.

What you need to do is first figure out how to make that jack be a
line input jack (there's probably a menu on there somewhere). Then you
need to make some test recordings while watching the meters on the
mixer. Play a CD through the mixer and plug in a mic. Set the mixer so
that the VU meters are peaking near 0 and record a minute or so. Then
play it.

Is it distorted? If so, you need to set the mixer ouptut lower. Do
that and try it again. Keep the peaks below the -7 light and see how
that works. If, rather than being distorted, the playback level is
low, make a test recording with the meters indicating peaks a little
higher, say hitting +7. The idea is to find some relation between the
mixer's meter reading and the peak input level of the recorder. You
might be able to find the nominal line level somewhere in the H-120
literature, but that's a bit of a pipe dream considering who they
build those things for.

Is there perhaps a better type of output on the Mackie mixer to be
using than Tape Out? All I saw was Monitor Line Out (in use) and Mixer
Out L/Mixer Out R.

If your Mackie mixer is one of the models that has a switch for the
XLR outputs to reduce them to -30 dBu nominal, try using those outputs
and an adapter or custom cable from the XLRs to your H-120. You'll
want to connect the shielded cable to pins 1 (shield) and 2 (center
conductor) and leave pin 3 open.

Can I introduce my microphone preamplifier into this situation to get
some control over the volume going into the H-120?

It doesn't really make much sense to do that.

It is probably obvious that I do not really know what I am talking
about.

No, you recognize the nature of the problem, and that's what you're
talking about. You just don't know all of the possibilities.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article .com,
Announcer wrote:

Some questions for you to consider. How do you know that the sound
coming out of the Mixer sounded clean and undistorted? You could have
distorted the sound in that stage.

I don't know that the sound is clean/undistorted?

Are you monitoring your levels in the Mackie carefully? You don't say
what Mackie you are using but my experience with them is that the 0
level on the meters is hotter than what you might expect by about 10
dB. If you are going over he 0 level on the Mackie you could very well
be overdriving the (cheap) input stage of recorder and causing
distortion there or overdriving the AGC (automatic gain control)
circuit and therefore clipping the signal.
No, not monitoring the Mackie 808S levels. The guy running the mixer
barely has enough patience to let me plug into it, much less care about
how the mixer levels may be affecting my recording efforts. They are
low on the evening's priorities.

Thx for help. T-L

In article , John
wrote:

What the real problem here is you have no INHERENT way to KNOW what your
actual record level is on the iRiver (one of which I want, to be in essence
a replacmeent pocket stereo quickie recorder a'la the old $500 Sony Walkman
Pro... Reccomendations?).

I like this iRiver H-120 very much. It seems designed mainly to be a
player/jukebox, but I don't use that feature at all; I bought it for
the recording feature. I record a couple of hours of material, run it
onto my iMac via USB, open the [usually very large] files with CD Spin
Doctor, cut the files up into tracks, export to Toast, and make a CD.
This sounds easy but it has taken me a long time to get to this point.

Except for the absence of a way to monitor external mic volume, which
everybody complains about, and a way to control line-in volume, which
has now been fixed, this unit is great. When I plug my ECM-DS70p stereo
mic in and record two or three guys sitting around playing, the results
are super, especially now that I have my plug-in recording level meter.
I attribute all of my field-recording difficulties to inexperience and
lack of opportunity to try things out on-site before pushing the
record button.


You;'re doing a decent workaround by trying to use the OUTPUT to guess the
input but there's no reliable CALIBRATION except listening for when it
distorts, which you could do by LISTENING To the output jack on phones.

Not sure how iRiver makes as you say a "... a single jack which works for
Line In, Optical In, and Mic In..."

I don't know how they do it, but the In/Out jacks are labeled
Optical/Line, and by going to a menu you can tell the unit which you
want to use.

but for what you're doing, both with the
preamp and the Mackie, is needing to absolutely be sure you're using a LINE
level input on the iRiver. Even then, All Line Levels Are Different and
you;re still in the Guesstimation Zone.
A BIG additional SNAFU here is the manual quote: "... The H-120 manual says
that when recording from an external audio device, the incoming volume level
cannot be controlled..." which says to me that it has an Automatic Gain
Control

The recorder does have an AGC On/Off. I had it set to On, but I do not
know if it affects attempts to record via Line In; maybe it just
affects attempts to record with Internal or External Mic. Seems to me
that I remember some users recommending against ever using the AGC
setting.

that is riding gain on the input so you don't have to (or conversely
so you CAN:T) and all you;re dealing with in 'setting' levels' is only
making sure you don;t shove a signal into that jack that's so hot it
overloads the INPUT circuit. Once you;re clear of THAt then the recorder's
little AGC will do it's own thing and undo whatever voliume adjstments YOU
might try to make.

You might try spending an afternoon with the Mackie and running a tone or
music signal into it so that the meters show LOUD but not clipping and then,
ideally if the Mackie has a HEADPHONE OUT that has it's OWN VOLUME COMNTROL
that does NOT affect what the meters are doing,

I do not see a Headphone Out in the pictu
http://www.mackie.com/products/ppmse...StereoFrnt.jpg
The Mackie owner has offered to bring it over to my house so we can
mess with it. I have not previously had this opportunity.



Thx for help. T-L

In article znr1110733430k@trad, Mike Rivers
wrote:


What you need to do is first figure out how to make that jack be a
line input jack (there's probably a menu on there somewhere).

Yes there is a menu, and I do know how to set the jack for Line In
recording.

Then you
need to make some test recordings while watching the meters on the
mixer. Play a CD through the mixer and plug in a mic. Set the mixer so
that the VU meters are peaking near 0 and record a minute or so. Then
play it.
Do not know how to "play a CD through the mixer." But maybe the mixer
operator does. Is the idea that the mic is picking up the CD sound and
we should set the meters from that?


If your Mackie mixer is one of the models that has a switch for the
XLR outputs to reduce them to -30 dBu nominal, try using those outputs
and an adapter or custom cable from the XLRs to your H-120. You'll
want to connect the shielded cable to pins 1 (shield) and 2 (center
conductor) and leave pin 3 open.

I do not see any XLR outputs in the pictu
http://www.mackie.com/products/ppmse...StereoFrnt.jpg
and do not remember seeing any in person.

Thx for help.
T-L

Thank you Announcer, John, and Mike Rivers for helping me to
understand what is going on with regard to what I am trying to do. I
shall read and study what you say.
Unbelievably, *today* iRiver released a new version of the H-120
firmware which enables the user to *set the volume when recording from
an external audio device.* I am not usually so lucky. With that
capability plus the information you have given me, I ought to be able
to get some acceptable results.
The Mackie mixer is the 808S.
Should I be using L Mixer Out/R Mixer Out or Tape Out L&R? Those seem
to be my only options with this mixer.
Thanks again to all.
T-L

In article znr1110733430k@trad, Mike Rivers
wrote:

In article
writes:

The H-120 manual says that when recording from an external audio
device, the incoming volume level cannot be controlled.

This is why nobody uses a recorder like this for recording without
figuring things out first.

Last night I
tried recording a live show by setting my H-120 recorder for Line In
and using a Y-cable from L & R Tape Out on a Mackie mixer to In (a
single jack which works for Line In, Optical In, and Mic In) on the
H-120. Much of the recording is badly distorted.

What you need to do is first figure out how to make that jack be a
line input jack (there's probably a menu on there somewhere). Then you
need to make some test recordings while watching the meters on the
mixer. Play a CD through the mixer and plug in a mic. Set the mixer so
that the VU meters are peaking near 0 and record a minute or so. Then
play it.

Is it distorted? If so, you need to set the mixer ouptut lower. Do
that and try it again. Keep the peaks below the -7 light and see how
that works. If, rather than being distorted, the playback level is
low, make a test recording with the meters indicating peaks a little
higher, say hitting +7. The idea is to find some relation between the
mixer's meter reading and the peak input level of the recorder. You
might be able to find the nominal line level somewhere in the H-120
literature, but that's a bit of a pipe dream considering who they
build those things for.

Is there perhaps a better type of output on the Mackie mixer to be
using than Tape Out? All I saw was Monitor Line Out (in use) and Mixer
Out L/Mixer Out R.

If your Mackie mixer is one of the models that has a switch for the
XLR outputs to reduce them to -30 dBu nominal, try using those outputs
and an adapter or custom cable from the XLRs to your H-120. You'll
want to connect the shielded cable to pins 1 (shield) and 2 (center
conductor) and leave pin 3 open.

Can I introduce my microphone preamplifier into this situation to get
some control over the volume going into the H-120?

It doesn't really make much sense to do that.

It is probably obvious that I do not really know what I am talking
about.

No, you recognize the nature of the problem, and that's what you're
talking about. You just don't know all of the possibilities.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

No, not monitoring the Mackie 808S levels. The guy running the mixer
barely has enough patience to let me plug into it, much less care about
how the mixer levels may be affecting my recording efforts. They are
low on the evening's priorities.

You're probably suffering from the "overloading the input stage"
problem so common with toy recorders. You really can't expect the guy
running the house mixer to go out of his way to accommodate your
recording, you have to be prepared to take what he gives you.

What you need is about 20 dB (a wild guess at the optimum value, but a
workable one) of attenuation between the mixer and your iPod. You'll
find plenty of schematics, but what you need to do is turn them into
something that you can use with any mixer, unless this is the only
setup you'll be using for recording. I'd recommend putting a dual pot
in a box and putting connectors on the box so you can insert it
between the mixer and your recorder and use the pot to adjust the
record level going to your recorder.

Since there's no meter, you'll be guessing, but if you connect
headphones to it and listen, you should be able to hear when it starts
to distort. When you hear that, turn it down.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

Except for the absence of a way to monitor external mic volume, which
everybody complains about, and a way to control line-in volume, which
has now been fixed, this unit is great.

Those are two REALLY BIG problems for recording, which is why it's
really designed as a playback jukebox and not a recorder.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

Do not know how to "play a CD through the mixer." But maybe the mixer
operator does. Is the idea that the mic is picking up the CD sound and
we should set the meters from that?

No, not at all. When he plays a CD through the system (just plug a CD
player into a pair of inputs. Bring one along in case he doesn't have
one) and sets the level so that the volume at the speakers is about
what he wants for the band, the tape output of the mixer will be
putting out about the same level signal as when the band is playing
through microphones. Use this to set the record level on your
recorder. Be very conservative, since things will almost certainly get
louder as the club fills up, and a band is much more enthusiastic than
a CD player.

Did you say the mixer was a Mackie PPM-808? On that mixer, the tape
output jacks come ahead of the master level control so the volume that
goes to the speakers isn't always directly related to what's being
mixed. Unless the guy running it knows his stuff, running just two
channels from a CD may not be fully representative of the level of
your whole band, so be extra conservative with the recording level.
Whatever you think it is, it will be higher.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

Unbelievably, *today* iRiver released a new version of the H-120
firmware which enables the user to *set the volume when recording from
an external audio device.* I am not usually so lucky.

Don't count your lucky stars before they hatch. g I'll bet that
adjustment is similar to the same adjustment that was added to the
Nomad Jukebox 3 firmware. While you can reduce the digital record
level, you can't adjust the gain of the input stage of the recorder.
If that's being overloaded from the signal coming out of the mixer,
all you'll accomplish by turning down volume with this adjustment is
making a cleaner recording of a distorted signal. I still recommend
the "pot in the box" solution which will actually control the level
going into the recorder.

Does the new firmware also include a meter display? That would be
helpful.

The Mackie mixer is the 808S.
Should I be using L Mixer Out/R Mixer Out or Tape Out L&R?

Use the tape outputs. Those come before the master volume and graphic
equalizers so the signal there will be more representative of the
actual mix. It won't be affected if the engineer adjusts the volume in
the house by changing the master level or adjusts the equalizer to
reduce feedback.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article znr1110817139k@trad, Mike Rivers
wrote:


What you need is about 20 dB (a wild guess at the optimum value, but a
workable one) of attenuation between the mixer and your iPod. You'll
find plenty of schematics, but what you need to do is turn them into
something that you can use with any mixer, unless this is the only
setup you'll be using for recording. I'd recommend putting a dual pot
in a box and putting connectors on the box so you can insert it
between the mixer and your recorder and use the pot to adjust the
record level going to your recorder.

This Mackie mixer is the only mixer I anticipate having to deal with.

I have ordered a SOUND PROFESSIONALS 1/8" VARIABLE STEREO ATTENUATOR
CABLE - 8" to go in between the Y-cable that comes from the Tape Out of
the Mackie mixer and my H-120 digital recorder. Here's hopin'!
T-L

In article znr1110817139k@trad, Mike Rivers
wrote:

You're probably suffering from the "overloading the input stage"
problem so common with toy recorders.

Although I came here to learn, not to differ with experienced
AudioFolks, and I threw myself on the mercy of rec.audio.pro, I would
like to come to the defense of my (now discontinued) poor little
hand-held iRiver H-120 recorder. With the tiny Sony plug-in stereo
condenser mic, it makes great if not world-class recordings. I wanted a
small hard-drive-based recorder that recorded in wav and mp3 and that
had the capability of being hooked up to my iMac via USB for rapid
no-problems file transfer. I can easily divide those files into tracks
and have a CD made in a short time. This means a lot to me, and I do
not recall finding another recorder that could do all this, though they
no doubt exist. My recollection is that file transfer from Sony units
to computers was problematic, for some kind of copyright reason. The
only problem I am having is distortion or "overloading the input
stage." And the only reason I am having this problem is that *I have to
set the machine to record (whether using the mic or Line In) and leave
it the way it is set* because I am in the band and cannot do any
monitoring or audio engineering while the set is underway. Nor have
circumstances permitted me to experiment very much before the music
playing begins. I will find a way to do so.


The iRiver unit, as I recall, cost $400 at BestBuy. The Sony mic was
about $50. The Sound Professionals mic preamp was $179. Attenuator
cable about $15. The ISI Innovative Specialists recording level meter
was $99. So my investment (or speculation) in getting good on-site
recordings is in the $700 range. This is a serious endeavor, and I
have shelled out what is to me serious money to succeed at it.

If it is true, as has been said, that the only difference between men
and boys is the price of their toys, then maybe *most* of the equipment
mentioned on this newsgroup is toys!
Thx for help.
T-L