I can give you my opinion for what you are looking for "on the cheap"
as it were. Great price without compromising quality. I had a similar
budget and after doing much research, hours and hours of it, on various
consumer review sites and dedicated audio web sites, I was lead to
audition the Athena AS-B2 bookshelf speakers.... I am telling you,
for the price that these little gems are going for, they are worth
every penny. I listened to these next to JBL, and Infinity bookshelves
of similar size and specs, and these sounded the best, with at least a
hundred dollar less price tag to boot. If you can go check these
speakers out, it will be well worth it. Takes a few hours to break
them in, but they sound wonderful.

I bought the AS-B2's for $225.00 Can. and then went for a quality
cheap A/V receiver and settled on the Denon 1602 which I purchased for
$450.00 on sale as well. This will be your best bang for your buck in
my honest opinion. And will cover your budget even with taxes
included. (I am assuming you already have a CD player or DVD)

I have since then picked up the matching center channel and two rears
plus the AS-P300 subwoofer. Just pick up parts at a time and build
the system you desire, Just be satisfied with your purchase. You will
set yourself crazy trying to acheive perfection. Rearranging your new
equipment is a lot cheaper than a new system every two years. You can
always do little tweaks here and there.

I hope this helps you a little.

wrote in message
oups.com...
-- most recommend going to a hifi dealer and trying
out different speakers and amps.

Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

All I want is to hear music as if the musicians were standing in front
of me playing their instruments.

Oh, is THAT all. Why didn't you say so? Ahem. You're asking the
impossible, or at least very expensive, depending on how discriminating you
are.

So... is this a lot to ask?

Yes.

Isn't it really the *only* thing to ask?

No.

Is sound reproduction that subjective that no one can agree on a
particular system that will do this?

It's not really subjective. See the magazine The Absolute Sound. Absolute.
Pretty objective.

Or maybe, are we talking about a
$100,000 system here to be able to be that accurate?

Right.

All I want to know is, with my measly $500-$750 (or less?), isn't there
a specific receiver/speaker combination that will produce what I want
to hear?

Like I said, it depends on how discriminating you are. But at any price
below a couple thousand dollars you're going to have to make some serious
compromises. The trick in audio is to figure out what your priorities are,
and pay only for those things. For example, is the bottom octave very
important to you? (20-40Hz) In some music it doesn't even show up. Is
concert level volume (massed strings of a full orchestra playing fff)
important to you? Is detail or dynamics more important? etc. Then you can
pick something that sounds close enough, depending on your wallet.

wrote in message
ups.com...
I guess a good followup question would be -- can you buy sound
reproduction components based on specs alone and expect the result to
match the specs?

No.

I'm thinking that if that's true, then Consumer
Reports recommendations are as good as any, and better than a
salesman's.

Oh god no. Consumer Reports is good for some things, but not what you're
looking for. Unless you truly can't spend more than $700 for your entire
system. Then they might actually be reasonable.

wrote in message
oups.com...

Are there any web sites that have suggestions/recommendations of setups
for people who desire to hear a certain kind of sound, hopefully
bracketed by budget levels?

The Absolute Sound. Both magazines have yearly "Recommended Components"
issues, for most price ranges.

"jeffc" wrote in message

wrote in message
oups.com...

Are there any web sites that have suggestions/recommendations of
setups for people who desire to hear a certain kind of sound,
hopefully bracketed by budget levels?

The Absolute Sound. Both magazines have yearly "Recommended
Components" issues, for most price ranges.

The problem is that both lists are essentially anti-science fiction.

I think you're right Jeff, thanks. I have really gained a lot from
this discussion and I hope others will too when they find this in the
archives. I think what I will do now with all this information is 1)
have a price range in mind of what I'm willing to spend, 2) go to an
audiophile dealer with some familiar CDs in hand and plan to spend some
time listening to various speakers in my price range - I am gathering
some names on the internet of what I'd like to try: PSB Image B25, Polk
Audio LSi7, Axiom Millenia M22ti. . 3) Visit a couple other stores
and hear what they have. 4) Make a decision on the speaker model I
like most. 5) Look online for the best price on that model, or look
for lightly used. 6) Go back to dealer and make offer.

After the speakers are decided on, the next step is the receiver and
DVD player, and maybe a subwoofer. I think I can rely on Consumer
Reports reviews for these components. The Onkyo TX-SR701 was rated
highest, but is on the expensive side. The Panasonic SA-HE100 was just
below that, though, and is almost 1/4 the price. I think it's only
5.1, but for music I really don't need 6.1 or 7.1. DVD players are a
commodity now and so finding something good for around $100 is not
hard; the Panasonic DVD-S47 was top rated at $100.

Thank you all for your input!
Bryan

Yes George, thank you, that does help a lot. I will audition the
Athenas too when I'm out and about. How is the subwoofer? I'm not
interesting in anything below 40Hz (not much in music is below that
octave), but I think the sub would deliver some "punch" to otherwise
bass-weak bookshelf speakers.

Thanks!
Bryan

Hey, Rui Salgueiro sent me some information and a link that I wanted to
share. At www.harman.com someone has written some white papers on
audio theory and how it applies to sound reproduction in the home. For
you academics out there, it's pretty interesting reading!

http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=default

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:53:40 -0800, Bryan wrote:

Hey, Rui Salgueiro sent me some information and a link that I wanted to
share. At www.harman.com someone has written some white papers on audio
theory and how it applies to sound reproduction in the home. For you
academics out there, it's pretty interesting reading!

http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=default

Yep, cheers Bryan. There is some interesting stuff there...

--
Mick
(no M$ software on here... :-) )
Web: http://www.nascom.info
Web: http://projectedsound.tk

Arny prefers using only genuine science fiction as a guide. If people
like Arny would forget about audio and work on warp drive technology
we'd all be ahead. I want to fly to Alpha Centauri and back in my
lifetime, I'd give every vacuum tube on earth for that.

Apparently my taste exceeds my budget -- gee, that's probably a
familiar tune. :-) I'm actually considering building my own speakers.
I've read quite a bit about this over the past couple days and it
seems like you can build a really excellent system for not much money.
And you have the added benefit of being able to tweak the crossover,
cabinet, baffling, insulation, etc. to get the sound you want.

There is a plan for speakers at www.audioreview.com that seems pretty
well-received. Parts for two speakers run about $300. That, and a
subwoofer (could I build one of those too?), and I'm set for speakers.
Now for the amp and DVD player.

Bryan

In . com, Bryan wrote :

[snip]

There is a plan for speakers at www.audioreview.com that seems pretty
well-received. Parts for two speakers run about $300. That, and a
subwoofer (could I build one of those too?), and I'm set for speakers.
Now for the amp and DVD player.

This is a very good idea. There are a lot of very good design available
around $300-400.

Forget the stupid suggestion of this idiot of George M. Middius to repair a
pair of "damaged" speakers.
In the end it will cost you more than $300 and will cause you much more
stress and troubles.

Middius is a troll. He doesn't know anything about speakers nor about audio
in general.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
oups.com

Hehe... Arny, I like you; you're a literal as I am. :-) You're
right, to get every nuance of say, a solo violinist, you would want
several microphones picking up all of the hamonics, the player's
breathing, the rustle of his/her clothing, the fingers on the
fretboard.

Actually the several mics would be more likely required to capture the
fact that the energy given off by a violin player varies considerably
along the ordinal directions.

Of course in a live performace you'd have to be
nose-to-nose with the player to hear all that.

????

OK OK, I give...
let's get realistic. :-) I don't want "in-your-face" as much as I
want "in the audience."

My point is that what you really want is what you want, when you want it.
One time you may want in-your-face and another time you may want
in-audience-over-here and then the next time you might want
in-the-audience over there. The methodology I outlined might possibly
deliver such a thing. It seems to me that little else would.

I think what I meant to say by "assume as perfect a recording as
possible" is just that. Assume that I have found the best recording
available of what I want to listen to. This may be a 5.1 Dolby
DVD-Audio recording, or a mono vinyl LP (yes, I still have my Dual 502
turntable!). I don't want the sound system to add or subtract
anything from what the recording engineers created. How's that? :-)

Without begging the point, what you might want is a system largely
composed near-field monitors.

Are there any web sites that have suggestions/recommendations of
setups for people who desire to hear a certain kind of sound,
hopefully bracketed by budget levels?

In all of our dreams...

Thank you MINe for the stereophile.com suggestion.

Stereophile is overtly dedicated to audio's high end, as in the high
priced segment of any particular product segment. IOW in the produce
segment area of near-field-monitors they have posted reviews of expensive
near-field monitors (e.g. Genelec), but not good inexpensive ones (e.g.
Behringer).


Note that High End doesn't necessarily mean best. If it did things like the
Orion speaker system from Linkwitz Labs would be getting reviewed.

Michael McKelvy wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
oups.com

Hehe... Arny, I like you; you're a literal as I am. :-) You're
right, to get every nuance of say, a solo violinist, you would
want
several microphones picking up all of the hamonics, the player's
breathing, the rustle of his/her clothing, the fingers on the
fretboard.

Actually the several mics would be more likely required to capture
the
fact that the energy given off by a violin player varies
considerably
along the ordinal directions.

Of course in a live performace you'd have to be
nose-to-nose with the player to hear all that.

????

OK OK, I give...
let's get realistic. :-) I don't want "in-your-face" as much as
I
want "in the audience."

My point is that what you really want is what you want, when you
want it.
One time you may want in-your-face and another time you may want
in-audience-over-here and then the next time you might want
in-the-audience over there. The methodology I outlined might
possibly
deliver such a thing. It seems to me that little else would.

I think what I meant to say by "assume as perfect a recording as
possible" is just that. Assume that I have found the best
recording
available of what I want to listen to. This may be a 5.1 Dolby
DVD-Audio recording, or a mono vinyl LP (yes, I still have my Dual
502
turntable!). I don't want the sound system to add or subtract
anything from what the recording engineers created. How's that?
:-)

Without begging the point, what you might want is a system largely
composed near-field monitors.

Are there any web sites that have suggestions/recommendations of
setups for people who desire to hear a certain kind of sound,
hopefully bracketed by budget levels?

In all of our dreams...

Thank you MINe for the stereophile.com suggestion.

Stereophile is overtly dedicated to audio's high end, as in the
high
priced segment of any particular product segment. IOW in the
produce
segment area of near-field-monitors they have posted reviews of
expensive
near-field monitors (e.g. Genelec), but not good inexpensive ones
(e.g.
Behringer).


Note that High End doesn't necessarily mean best.



It certainly does includes the best but it also includes plenty below
it.




If it did things like the
Orion speaker system from Linkwitz Labs would be getting reviewed.



Nonsnense. What is high end and what is reviewed are independent
subjects.





Scott Wheeler

Thanks, George. Actually, I have an old pair of Verit Heritage
speakers that I bought new in... hm, 1978? The woofers had gone bad
and I replaced them with Pyle woofers about 20 years ago. Then the
tweeters stopped working and I replaced them too. Then the Pyle's
cheap foam surrounds rotted and now one of the tweeters doesn't work
again. Thus, my search for "new" speakers.

But you bring up a good idea... The cabinets are still in decent shape.
I could get some good Dynaudio woofers and tweeters for it, and then
get or build a decent crossover and I'm back in business (as long as
the cabinet size and port tube are correct). :-) I still want to
build some speakers from scratch though. It sounds like a fun winter
project.

Thanks,
Bryan

George M. Middius wrote:
Bryan said:

There is a plan for speakers at www.audioreview.com that seems
pretty
well-received. Parts for two speakers run about $300. That, and a
subwoofer (could I build one of those too?), and I'm set for
speakers.

You might be able to pick up a pair of damaged speakers and repair
them.
This would cost you less money and take less work.

I think I will try Ed Frias' design. It seems simple, the parts are
available in a kit, and there is a lot of support on audioreview.com
for help building and tweaking the speakers. Ed also seems to be a
very nice and knowledgeable person who is willing to help. He
suggested to me that I find a good amp and preamp instead of a
receiver. I have never considered that before, but I may be on another
learning quest to find out! I'd be happy with used equipment if I can
find something of quality for a good price. Back to eBay! ;-)

Bryan

Hi Bryan,
For $700 you can probably get some really good headphones and a headphone
amp to go along with the headphones. This might be the way to go for what
your looking for..

"Bryan" wrote in message
oups.com...
I think I will try Ed Frias' design. It seems simple, the parts are
available in a kit, and there is a lot of support on audioreview.com
for help building and tweaking the speakers. Ed also seems to be a
very nice and knowledgeable person who is willing to help. He
suggested to me that I find a good amp and preamp instead of a
receiver. I have never considered that before, but I may be on another
learning quest to find out! I'd be happy with used equipment if I can
find something of quality for a good price. Back to eBay! ;-)

Bryan

"marc" wrote in message

Hi Bryan,
For $700 you can probably get some really good headphones and a
headphone amp to go along with the headphones. This might be the way
to go for what your looking for..

If you root around you can catch a pair of Sennheiser HD580s for about $180
new, and you might not need a headphone amp at all, depending on the rest of
your gear. By most accounts these are among the top headphones around today.
IOW there are no doubt some headphones that some people think sound better,
but they also satisfy tons of really pretty picky people.

HD580s have a relatively high impedance which means that they are less
critical of the circuitry that drives them.

Good idea, but in my case, I like to play my trombone along with what
I'm listening to. Wearing headphones kind of diminishes that ability.
I have a pair of Sony MDR-V6 headphones though, which I am very happy
with. The ear pads have disintegrated, so I'd like to find
replacements for less than the $10 each that Sony charges. Regardless,
I'd like to find a surround speaker system that puts me right on stage
with the band. ;-) I'm still considering building my own front
speakers and sub, although at least one person from here is trying to
talk me out of it. What's your opinion?

Thanks!
Bryan

How about micking your trombone and playing it back through the headphones
in real time along with your music or recording it and mixing it with your
music.

What about electric trombones?

"Bryan" wrote in message
oups.com...
Good idea, but in my case, I like to play my trombone along with what
I'm listening to. Wearing headphones kind of diminishes that ability.
I have a pair of Sony MDR-V6 headphones though, which I am very happy
with. The ear pads have disintegrated, so I'd like to find
replacements for less than the $10 each that Sony charges. Regardless,
I'd like to find a surround speaker system that puts me right on stage
with the band. ;-) I'm still considering building my own front
speakers and sub, although at least one person from here is trying to
talk me out of it. What's your opinion?

Thanks!
Bryan

Hehe.... marc, that sounds much more complicated to me than just buying
or building some speakers. :-) I don't think I'm really that much of
an audiophile that I wouldn't be satisfied with a system that costs
less than $1000. But thank you for your suggestions!

Just build a starter pair of speakers with a simple crossover and when
their limitations really present problems with your playing over them
then upgrade. The neatest homebrew speakers that didn't cost much to
build that i have heard were built from a diagonally cut length of flue
tile, an inexpensive non-resonant cabinet for a pair of minis. They're
from some book somewhere but I forget which one. If you used the listed
drivers and crossover you were looking at roughly $150 for the pair.

Thanks -- that sounds like an interesting design. ;-) You're right
though, the cabinets themselves will run about $90 for two, if I buy
them pre-made. I'm just afraid that I won't be able to match the
cabinet volume specs that are quite specific for the drivers and
crossover used in that AR.com DIY speaker. Plus, I'm not confident
that I could make the veneer and grill look very professional, at least
not on my first try. Now speaker stands... that's a different story
and I'll probably make those myself. I think I can do a reasonably
good job with MDF and real wood veneer - and the design is not so
critical. So anyway, I will likely buy the cabinets rather than make
them from scratch.

"Bryan" wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks -- that sounds like an interesting design. ;-) You're right
though, the cabinets themselves will run about $90 for two, if I buy
them pre-made. I'm just afraid that I won't be able to match the
cabinet volume specs that are quite specific for the drivers and
crossover used in that AR.com DIY speaker. Plus, I'm not confident
that I could make the veneer and grill look very professional, at least
not on my first try. Now speaker stands... that's a different story
and I'll probably make those myself. I think I can do a reasonably
good job with MDF and real wood veneer - and the design is not so
critical. So anyway, I will likely buy the cabinets rather than make
them from scratch.


You don't have to use mdf . You can use many types of plywood, real wood
(sand it , and give it a nice finish).
You can use vinyl, tolex covers, etc, to cover your speakers. You can buy
the wood and some places will cut the pieces for you to your exact
dimensions.
If you plan on buidling your own box you need to buy some tools: Router with
a jig for making circles. A drill. Soldering irons,etc.

If your going to build some speakers. You might consider getting these books
on building loudspeakers.
Loudspeaker Design Cookbook
by Vance Dickason
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...423319-8849724

He includes some designs for loudspeakers.

Designing, Building, and Testing Your Own Speaker System with Projects
by David B. Weems
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...=UTF8&v=glance

Find a design in a book, buy a kit, or build your own design - but you need
to know what your doing:
Choosing the speakers, designing the speaker box speciafically for those
speakers, designing crossovers (these can make a huge difference in sound).


You can get software for designing your speaker box,etc:
http://home.earthlink.net/~etunstal/diy.htm
http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...IYspeakers.php
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...=500-945&DID=7
http://www.linearteam.dk/default.aspx?pageid=winisd

marc a écrit :
"Bryan" wrote in message
oups.com...

Thanks -- that sounds like an interesting design. ;-) You're right
though, the cabinets themselves will run about $90 for two, if I buy
them pre-made. I'm just afraid that I won't be able to match the
cabinet volume specs that are quite specific for the drivers and
crossover used in that AR.com DIY speaker. Plus, I'm not confident
that I could make the veneer and grill look very professional, at least
not on my first try. Now speaker stands... that's a different story
and I'll probably make those myself. I think I can do a reasonably
good job with MDF and real wood veneer - and the design is not so
critical. So anyway, I will likely buy the cabinets rather than make
them from scratch.



You don't have to use mdf . You can use many types of plywood, real wood
(sand it , and give it a nice finish).
You can use vinyl, tolex covers, etc, to cover your speakers. You can buy
the wood and some places will cut the pieces for you to your exact
dimensions.
If you plan on buidling your own box you need to buy some tools: Router with
a jig for making circles. A drill. Soldering irons,etc.

If your going to build some speakers. You might consider getting these books
on building loudspeakers.
Loudspeaker Design Cookbook
by Vance Dickason
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...423319-8849724

He includes some designs for loudspeakers.

Designing, Building, and Testing Your Own Speaker System with Projects
by David B. Weems
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...=UTF8&v=glance

Find a design in a book, buy a kit, or build your own design - but you need
to know what your doing:
Choosing the speakers, designing the speaker box speciafically for those
speakers, designing crossovers (these can make a huge difference in sound).


You can get software for designing your speaker box,etc:
http://home.earthlink.net/~etunstal/diy.htm
http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...IYspeakers.php
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...=500-945&DID=7
http://www.linearteam.dk/default.aspx?pageid=winisd

You can also find free softwares here :
http://www.pvconsultants.com/audio/frdgroup.htm

- "Unibox" is a very powerfull Excel spreadsheet
- SPL Tools (tracer and viewer) are very usefull for box and
xover simulation working with speakers manufacturers tech.
datas.
- passive crossover designer is also a powerfull Excel
spreadsheet.
- Passive Crossover Design Calculator has also interesting
features.

Wish you a lot of fun.

Wow, thank you so much for all the info marc! I appreciate your help.
I will read up on speaker design because sound reproduction is
interesting to me. What I like about the AR.com DIY speaker, though,
is that it has already been designed, tested and tweaked. All I have
to do is put it together, eliminating the overhead and markup of a
manufacturer. And apparently these speakers have been compared side by
side with some pretty expensive and well known/liked brands and come
out ahead.

You're right about the speaker stands though. And I think I would
probably rather buy some nice birch or oak plywood and use that instead
of glueing veneer to MDF. Maybe I'd use the MDF for the base and
pedestal so I don't have to worry about edging, or maybe I'll make some
edging out of solid wood... hey, this is getting exciting. :-)

Bryan

Thanks, Lionel! Just to round out this great list of links, here are a
couple more web sites for do-it-yourselfers:

www.speakerbuilder.net
www.diyaudio.com
www.partsexpress.com
www.madisound.com
www.speakercity.com

Bryan a écrit :
Wow, thank you so much for all the info marc! I appreciate your help.
I will read up on speaker design because sound reproduction is
interesting to me. What I like about the AR.com DIY speaker, though,
is that it has already been designed, tested and tweaked. All I have
to do is put it together, eliminating the overhead and markup of a
manufacturer. And apparently these speakers have been compared side by
side with some pretty expensive and well known/liked brands and come
out ahead.

You're right about the speaker stands though. And I think I would
probably rather buy some nice birch or oak plywood and use that instead
of glueing veneer to MDF. Maybe I'd use the MDF for the base and
pedestal so I don't have to worry about edging, or maybe I'll make some
edging out of solid wood... hey, this is getting exciting. :-)

I have seen some very nice speaker stand made with MDF +
veneer for the upper and lower plate and the "column" was
done with a brelan of copper pipes.
Each pipe has a different diameter, they are reinforced
inside with a threaded rod and fill up with very dry sand.
After cleaning them with the ad'hoc liquid for brilliance,
you just put a little bit of varnish on the copper pipes to
fix the tint.

If you can understand the above and if copper matches your
taste (WAF ?) and your room design... ;-)

That sounds like a cool design, Lionel. I think I like the idea of
natural wood rather than copper, but some brass trim might look good
with a nice cherry or walnut stain. :-)

Bryan

Bryan wrote:

Wow, thank you so much for all the info marc! I appreciate your help.
I will read up on speaker design because sound reproduction is
interesting to me. What I like about the AR.com DIY speaker, though,
is that it has already been designed, tested and tweaked. All I have
to do is put it together, eliminating the overhead and markup of a
manufacturer. And apparently these speakers have been compared side by
side with some pretty expensive and well known/liked brands and come
out ahead.

You're right about the speaker stands though. And I think I would
probably rather buy some nice birch or oak plywood and use that instead
of glueing veneer to MDF.

MDF works. It's cheap. Oh - and it works.

Seriously, though -MDF is far better than almost anything else
to build a speaker out of without breaking your bank. It also
comes in pre-veneered sheets if you order from the right sources.
(one side or both). Add in some veneer strips to cover the edges
and enjoy.

MDF does work but there are mechanically more rugged and pleasing
materials to work with. Laminated hardwoods can be a better choice. On
a really expensive speaker or for a homebuilder willing to put in the
time molding the hardwoods around a form is better than plywood even if
you use joinery like Fender guitar cabinets. You can use alternating
layers of lighter and denser woods which is also cosmetically
attractive.

The flue tile speakers were really remarkable and cost effective too.

I went to AR.com, it's a dead site. It took considerable Googling to
find out it was a Madisound deal,not a URL!

wrote:
MDF does work but there are mechanically more rugged and pleasing
materials to work with. Laminated hardwoods can be a better choice.

Actually, it's about resonance, or the lack thereof. Cement
works well, as does marble and Corian. MDF is the best affordable
material. Laminated and ply-woods are not even close and take
a lot more effort to design around to get flat response.

On
a really expensive speaker or for a homebuilder willing to put in the
time molding the hardwoods around a form is better than plywood even if
you use joinery like Fender guitar cabinets. You can use alternating
layers of lighter and denser woods which is also cosmetically
attractive.

Looks good. Sounds hopelessly homebuilt. It's a very common mistake
most DIYers make - they think "MDF is butt-ugly". Well, it is. But
good laminate takes care of it and you'd never know the difference
if you use 1/4 inch stuff instead of paper-thin junk most makers
tend to use(ie - you can sand and shape it, as well as stain/oil it
like real wood)

The flue tile speakers were really remarkable and cost effective too.

Tile and marble is excellent, if heavy and prone to cracking during
the construction process. Also, special adhesives and joints need
to be utilized, which are a real PITA.

If the box is designed solid so that it doesn't vibrate and if you use
dampen material inside the box to get the right resonance that's all that
matters. Not whether it's made of mdf or cement. Wood or plywood is fine.
Besides who's going to make a speaker out of cement? It's completely
impractical - how are you going to move it around?

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
k.net...


wrote:
MDF does work but there are mechanically more rugged and pleasing
materials to work with. Laminated hardwoods can be a better choice.

Actually, it's about resonance, or the lack thereof. Cement
works well, as does marble and Corian. MDF is the best affordable
material. Laminated and ply-woods are not even close and take
a lot more effort to design around to get flat response.

On
a really expensive speaker or for a homebuilder willing to put in the
time molding the hardwoods around a form is better than plywood even if
you use joinery like Fender guitar cabinets. You can use alternating
layers of lighter and denser woods which is also cosmetically
attractive.

Looks good. Sounds hopelessly homebuilt. It's a very common mistake
most DIYers make - they think "MDF is butt-ugly". Well, it is. But
good laminate takes care of it and you'd never know the difference
if you use 1/4 inch stuff instead of paper-thin junk most makers
tend to use(ie - you can sand and shape it, as well as stain/oil it
like real wood)

The flue tile speakers were really remarkable and cost effective too.

Tile and marble is excellent, if heavy and prone to cracking during
the construction process. Also, special adhesives and joints need
to be utilized, which are a real PITA.

I'm sorry, AR.com is a shortened version of AudioReview.com. I'm not
sure why people say "AR.com", but it seem to be a common nickname for
the site.

Bryan

Fork lift? ;-)

I have heard of subwoofers made of sonotubes used for concrete piers.
It seems a tube that's upwards of 8' in length makes a really good
subwoofer enclosure.

marc wrote:

If the box is designed solid so that it doesn't vibrate and if you use
dampen material inside the box to get the right resonance that's all that
matters. Not whether it's made of mdf or cement. Wood or plywood is fine.
Besides who's going to make a speaker out of cement? It's completely
impractical - how are you going to move it around?

Yeah, cement IS impractical. Lol.

The problem is, stuffing the cabinet with deadening material does
nothing versus lower frequencies. I've heard many DIY speakers
(usually at trade shows from small start-up firms) that resonate
somewhere in the 40-80hz range due to thinking that plywood or
laminated layers is good enough.

At $30-$35 a 4*8 sheet, just use MDF and put a nice veneer on it.

A 300 pound speaker is okay if you make it so that a small cart or even
a hand truck can be used with it. A really high end design would have
jackpoints for use with a dedicated cart resembling a Segway: indeed,
I'd use Segway wheel/tires, they are designed for nonmarking properties
and Segway needs money, so should be willing to deal.

Of course, in the Wilson Audio price class, they should have their own
Segway built in.

Sonotubes are much lighter than the cement they usually form: and can
build a good speaker in part because their circular cross-section is
self-reinforcing in that axis. I remember now that the guy who built
the flying car invented a material called paperglass, which was kraft
paper with a resin similar to regular fiberglass resin. Perhaps
Sonotubes could be impregnated with such a resin to make them even more
suited to speaker service.

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
news


marc wrote:

If the box is designed solid so that it doesn't vibrate and if you use
dampen material inside the box to get the right resonance that's all that
matters. Not whether it's made of mdf or cement. Wood or plywood is fine.
Besides who's going to make a speaker out of cement? It's completely
impractical - how are you going to move it around?

Yeah, cement IS impractical. Lol.

The problem is, stuffing the cabinet with deadening material does
nothing versus lower frequencies.

What problems is this?
What do mean deadening material does nothing versus lower frequencies?

The object of designing the right sized box and the right amount of
dampening (and this depends on the specs of the driver) is to balance driver
damping with a smooth low-frequency response and a good transient response.
There are many materials you can use to make the box including wood and
plywood. What you have to be concerned with when designing the box is
whether the box is the right size for the specific driver, has the right
amount of dampening, does the box vibrate, is it air tight - are there air
leaks, etc.

I've heard many DIY speakers
(usually at trade shows from small start-up firms) that resonate
somewhere in the 40-80hz range due to thinking that plywood or
laminated layers is good enough.

A vented box is designed to resonate.
A closed box is not designed to resonate and should not resonate.
This has nothing to do with whether the box is made out of plywood or wood.
It has to do with the speaker not being designed properly.


At $30-$35 a 4*8 sheet, just use MDF and put a nice veneer on it.