Ken Platt wrote:
Does anybody have a starting point to suggest in terms of placement of a PZM
inside an 1930's full size upright. We are trying to mic the piano and use
it with drums, bass and guitar live in a smaller room. We would like to get
the most volume before feedback but still have it sound like a piano. We
tried 57's, 58's, both of our small condensers and we were still struggling
to hear just before feedback. The spkrs are already as far as they can be
from the piano. Near hammers, far from hammers, top of lid, front panel,
lid open, lid closed, thanks for any tips.
ciao
ken




I have taped a crown pzm under the top lid put a pencil by the wire to
keep from crushing it

George

Ken Platt wrote:

Does anybody have a starting point to suggest in terms of placement of a PZM
inside an 1930's full size upright.

Tape it to the bottom of the lid; experiment with bass - treble location
to get balance. Understand that it will sound like a piano only for some
values of sounding-like-a-piano.

We are trying to mic the piano and use
it with drums, bass and guitar live in a smaller room.

Let me guess: that's electric bass guitar, electric gutiar, and drums?
Your task is not easy and success will depend on the other player's
ability to find their tone without destroying anyone's ears.

We would like to get
the most volume before feedback but still have it sound like a piano. We
tried 57's, 58's, both of our small condensers and we were still struggling
to hear just before feedback.

Right, because there is no way in hell an upright piano is going to be
able to argue with the amplified instruments. But where did you put
those mics? A pair of 57's along the back of the soundboard (outside
the piano) placed either as an X/Y pair near the middle, or as separate
sources aimed away from the middle, each just past the pillar near the
bass/treble end of the instrument and nearly against the soundboard, can
work okay. Pianos differ, but many are strong in the midrange, in which
case the spread mics, with a little position adjustment based on
listening, can balance the low and high ends against that middle.

Some absorbent baffling behind the instrument can also help.

The spkrs are already as far as they can be
from the piano. Near hammers, far from hammers, top of lid, front panel,
lid open, lid closed, thanks for any tips.

Inside the piano it's a box, with all sorts of stuff that you wouldn't
ordinarily associate with sounding like a piano. A mic in there can't
avoid hearing all that racket and the results are often not pretty.

--
ha

Thanks for the tips guys.
I didn't really expect it to sound like a solo grand
I really am concerned about hearing it.
Of course you are sooo right about keeping a leash on the volume.
We are at the mercy of the drums to some degree though.
I have thought about putting a couple of office dividers with some wood,
insul, foam to baffle the drums in the room a bit since no one can seem to
play down quite far enough.
thx again
ken

"hank alrich" wrote in message
.. .
Ken Platt wrote:

Does anybody have a starting point to suggest in terms of placement of a
PZM
inside an 1930's full size upright.

Tape it to the bottom of the lid; experiment with bass - treble location
to get balance. Understand that it will sound like a piano only for some
values of sounding-like-a-piano.

We are trying to mic the piano and use
it with drums, bass and guitar live in a smaller room.

Let me guess: that's electric bass guitar, electric gutiar, and drums?
Your task is not easy and success will depend on the other player's
ability to find their tone without destroying anyone's ears.

We would like to get
the most volume before feedback but still have it sound like a piano. We
tried 57's, 58's, both of our small condensers and we were still
struggling
to hear just before feedback.

Right, because there is no way in hell an upright piano is going to be
able to argue with the amplified instruments. But where did you put
those mics? A pair of 57's along the back of the soundboard (outside
the piano) placed either as an X/Y pair near the middle, or as separate
sources aimed away from the middle, each just past the pillar near the
bass/treble end of the instrument and nearly against the soundboard, can
work okay. Pianos differ, but many are strong in the midrange, in which
case the spread mics, with a little position adjustment based on
listening, can balance the low and high ends against that middle.

Some absorbent baffling behind the instrument can also help.

The spkrs are already as far as they can be
from the piano. Near hammers, far from hammers, top of lid, front panel,
lid open, lid closed, thanks for any tips.

Inside the piano it's a box, with all sorts of stuff that you wouldn't
ordinarily associate with sounding like a piano. A mic in there can't
avoid hearing all that racket and the results are often not pretty.

--
ha

Anybody want to make a case for V-drums and PODs? ...then you can mic
it however the hell you want.

Tak

On 2005-01-21 02:09:18 -0500, "Ken Platt" said:

Thanks for the tips guys.
I didn't really expect it to sound like a solo grand
I really am concerned about hearing it.
Of course you are sooo right about keeping a leash on the volume.
We are at the mercy of the drums to some degree though.
I have thought about putting a couple of office dividers with some
wood, insul, foam to baffle the drums in the room a bit since no one
can seem to play down quite far enough.
thx again
ken

"hank alrich" wrote in message
.. .
Ken Platt wrote:

Does anybody have a starting point to suggest in terms of placement of a PZM
inside an 1930's full size upright.

Tape it to the bottom of the lid; experiment with bass - treble location
to get balance. Understand that it will sound like a piano only for some
values of sounding-like-a-piano.

We are trying to mic the piano and use
it with drums, bass and guitar live in a smaller room.

Let me guess: that's electric bass guitar, electric gutiar, and drums?
Your task is not easy and success will depend on the other player's
ability to find their tone without destroying anyone's ears.

We would like to get
the most volume before feedback but still have it sound like a piano. We
tried 57's, 58's, both of our small condensers and we were still struggling
to hear just before feedback.

Right, because there is no way in hell an upright piano is going to be
able to argue with the amplified instruments. But where did you put
those mics? A pair of 57's along the back of the soundboard (outside
the piano) placed either as an X/Y pair near the middle, or as separate
sources aimed away from the middle, each just past the pillar near the
bass/treble end of the instrument and nearly against the soundboard, can
work okay. Pianos differ, but many are strong in the midrange, in which
case the spread mics, with a little position adjustment based on
listening, can balance the low and high ends against that middle.

Some absorbent baffling behind the instrument can also help.

The spkrs are already as far as they can be
from the piano. Near hammers, far from hammers, top of lid, front panel,
lid open, lid closed, thanks for any tips.

Inside the piano it's a box, with all sorts of stuff that you wouldn't
ordinarily associate with sounding like a piano. A mic in there can't
avoid hearing all that racket and the results are often not pretty.

--
ha

Ken Platt wrote:

Does anybody have a starting point to suggest in terms of placement of a PZM
inside an 1930's full size upright. We are trying to mic the piano and use
it with drums, bass and guitar live in a smaller room. We would like to get
the most volume before feedback but still have it sound like a piano. We
tried 57's, 58's, both of our small condensers and we were still struggling
to hear just before feedback.

Well, I don't know how good an idea it is, but one idea that has not
yet been mentioned is getting a piano pickup. It probably won't
sound great, but it might get you more volume. I think they go
for like $100 to $200.

- Logan

If you are looking for piano pickups, I would suggest Helpinstill Piano
Pickups. They are incredible pickups and if you are going to use the
current setup that you have (drums, guitar and bass) these pickups would
help out tremendously. The main reason is that there is no feedback. They
are just like the pickups on a guitar. Each one is a magnet, not a mic, so
you don't get feedback. Many popular artists use them including Ben Folds,
Paul McCartney, Matchbox 20, Phish and many more. Here is their site.
http://members.aol.com/realpiano/. I just thought that I would suggest
them...
-Luther



"Logan Shaw" wrote in message
...
Ken Platt wrote:

Does anybody have a starting point to suggest in terms of placement of a
PZM
inside an 1930's full size upright. We are trying to mic the piano and
use
it with drums, bass and guitar live in a smaller room. We would like to
get
the most volume before feedback but still have it sound like a piano. We
tried 57's, 58's, both of our small condensers and we were still
struggling
to hear just before feedback.

Well, I don't know how good an idea it is, but one idea that has not
yet been mentioned is getting a piano pickup. It probably won't
sound great, but it might get you more volume. I think they go
for like $100 to $200.

- Logan

I've never gotten a good sound on the lid either. I have found that
placement on a strut (I not sure if this is the correct term I'm
referring to the upright heavy wooden lengths of the back that support
the sound board and the mechanical structure on the back) with the
capsule facing the sound board yielded usable results as did placement
on a wall behind the piano. I admit I usually preferred to open the
top and stick a couple of SD condensers in.

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 19:30:57 -0500, "Ken Platt"
wrote:

Does anybody have a starting point to suggest in terms of placement of a PZM
inside an 1930's full size upright. We are trying to mic the piano and use
it with drums, bass and guitar live in a smaller room. We would like to get
the most volume before feedback but still have it sound like a piano. We
tried 57's, 58's, both of our small condensers and we were still struggling
to hear just before feedback. The spkrs are already as far as they can be
from the piano. Near hammers, far from hammers, top of lid, front panel,
lid open, lid closed, thanks for any tips.
ciao
ken

Ken Platt wrote:

Does anybody have a starting point to suggest in terms of placement of a PZM
inside an 1930's full size upright. We are trying to mic the piano and use
it with drums, bass and guitar live in a smaller room. We would like to get
the most volume before feedback but still have it sound like a piano. We
tried 57's, 58's, both of our small condensers and we were still struggling
to hear just before feedback. The spkrs are already as far as they can be
from the piano. Near hammers, far from hammers, top of lid, front panel,
lid open, lid closed, thanks for any tips.
ciao
ken



The "lid" on an upright is the cover closest to the
pedals. Sometimes it comes off. I'm not sure I wouldn't
gaff tape one of the small condensers to the string side
of that, then close it up. It's gonna woof, though...

You'll still have a lotta bleed in there. I'd add gobos,
moving blankets, what have you to try to get some isolation.

Gotta say, ROMplers were made for times when you have this
problem... there's a Micropiano on Ebay for $150 right now...
just add a cheap Casio keyboard...

In the off chance you're *recording* this, just dub
the piano again later. Time domain isolation is
*perfect*. Leave the original in the mix. Could be
interesting...

--
Les Cargill

Les Cargill wrote:

The "lid" on an upright is the cover closest to the
pedals. Sometimes it comes off. I'm not sure I wouldn't
gaff tape one of the small condensers to the string side
of that, then close it up. It's gonna woof, though...

Pedal noise...

--
ha

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Ken Platt" wrote:

lid open

You said feedback's a problem right? Keep the lid closed if possible

lid closed

Probably the better choice.

I've had much better luck with this by placing the mics outside and
behind the piano. Inside seems to add nonlinearities that work against
getting some SPL from the piano. Behind with a little baffling has
worked much better for me.

--
ha

In article writes:

Pedal noise...

That's how you tell that it's a real piano and not a virtual one. Good
pedal noise is as hard to simulate as analog tape distortion.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Mike Rivers wrote:

In article writes:


Pedal noise...


That's how you tell that it's a real piano and not a virtual one. Good
pedal noise is as hard to simulate as analog tape distortion.


Or the fine sound of the buttons clacking on an accordian.

On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 08:04:58 -0800, S O'Neill
wrote:

Mike Rivers wrote:

In article writes:


Pedal noise...


That's how you tell that it's a real piano and not a virtual one. Good
pedal noise is as hard to simulate as analog tape distortion.


Or the fine sound of the buttons clacking on an accordian.

Agreed - so much nicer than the horrid screeching of the reeds.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Mike Rivers wrote:

writes:

Pedal noise...

That's how you tell that it's a real piano and not a virtual one. Good
pedal noise is as hard to simulate as analog tape distortion.

Agreed, but I still get plenty of pedal noise when micing the soundboard
from the outside back. Inside the lid below the keyboard the pedal
noise is way out of proportion to the rest of the racket, unless one
wants an effect like that. And I've found resistance to feedback lower
with mics inside, than outside and behind. Of course, all this could
vary with pianos, rooms, and what else is being played in what manner
along with the piano that the piano player cannot hear.

--
ha

hank alrich wrote:

Les Cargill wrote:


The "lid" on an upright is the cover closest to the
pedals. Sometimes it comes off. I'm not sure I wouldn't
gaff tape one of the small condensers to the string side
of that, then close it up. It's gonna woof, though...


Pedal noise...

--
ha

Yup. All manner of mechanical noises besides pedals, too.
I like the sound behind the soundboard, too, but he's
talking "gain before feedback...

FWIW, ROMpler. Really.

--
Les Cargill