Hi,

I sat in on a recording at a local studio today to get some experience as an
engineer. The band were a local alt rock/metal act with a pretty good
drummer. What I noticed vis-a-vis drum sounds was the engineer's approach to
sound modification - there was a fair bit of duct tape on the toms (which
already had old, worn Pinstripe heads), kick half full of sheets and
blankets, a mic on every drum (2 on snare) etc. Now, I've always subscribed
to the 'less is more' approach to recording. Y'know, nice open sound, a room
mic or two and a kick mic, etc. I like the idea of that. But this guy put
tape on every drum (the snare was pretty dead too, although the kit was an
older Pearl MMX which actually sounded quite nice even with muffling), ran
every drum through a gate, compressed everything including overheads and
generally EQed the kit into oblivion.

The mic configuration - MD421 on each tom, 57 top and bottom of snare, AKG
C91 (I think) on hats, Beta 51 on kick, C451s on overheads (AB config over
each side of the kit) and two high-dollar large diaphragm condensors as AB
room mics. The thing is, even with all this duct tapery and excessive signal
processing which everyone seems to abhorr completely...

The recording sounded FANTASTIC. Within the genre of alt rock/metal, anyway.
The toms didn't sound dead at all on recording and with a bit of reverb, the
snare opened up into a great rock punch. The gating did nothing but make the
power of the drums stand out. I was shocked. I felt wholly unclean to
actually be enjoying such a breach of drumming integrity. It wasn't just in
the skill of the player, because as I said, he was a pretty good drummer,
not an amazing one.

Conversely, I record with wide open toms with single ply heads top and
bottom, little or no gating, a small pillow in the kick and 2 overheads,
snare and kick mic. My recordings suck by comparison. In order to get
anywhere NEAR enough definition from the kick, I have to mult the signal and
EQ one of the tracks low and one with ridiculously boosted 3-4kHz on a high
shelf. The drums sound nice enough on their own for a home recording, and
sound great when I'm playing them in the room, but they drop right out of
the mix as soon as they see a guitar. Even when I close mic the toms,
they're way underneath everything else. Plus, the kit seems undefined, like
the individual hits aren't coming through well enough. So much for only
using overheads and kick.

So, what gives? If gating, muffling and generous use of compression can
sound this good, why do so many people say it's a bad thing? Granted, the
sound wouldn't work for everyone, it was definitely a heavy rock sound, but
within the genre, anyway?

I re-mixed an old track I had lying around the way this engineer did it, and
got good results with a large handful of gating and EQ, so it's not just my
gear or his. What are your thoughts on all this, and if you've managed to
get a nice recording using 3 mics or some kind of fairly minimalist setup,
how did you do it? Especially the kick drum? I find I need, without
exception, at least 10-15dB of EQ for the click of the drum to be heard, yet
I keep reading about all these people who record resonant kick drums with no
muffling, and seem to have no problem.

Your thoughts?

Thanks

TJ

--
tj hertz

"TJ Hertz" wrote in message
. uk...
So, what gives? If gating, muffling and generous use of compression can
sound this good, why do so many people say it's a bad thing?

I suppose because it's not a "natural" sound, it more of a manufactured
sound - I used to do this kind of recording a LOT, and sometimes you have
to, if, for example - as you said - the drummer comes in with old
beat-to-**** heads (regardless of the fact that you told him it would be a
**really** good idea to put new heads on a day or two before the session,
etc). In cases like that you're sometimes better off duct-taping & gating;
you're not trying to enhance whatever good stuff the kit contributes to the
sound, you're trying to nuke the ****ty overtones that the beat-to-hell
heads give off. With a litle bit of luck & a little bit of skill, you can
often get a damn good sound... when you tighten up a kit in this manner,
you're basically just asking the room & the 'verbs you use to carry the tone
for you, and as long as the shells are halfway decent, you can get a good
impulse tone out of each hit. In fact, that's a good analogy - it's almost
like using an impulse reverb (well, not exactly, but follow it for a
moment); when you tape & pillow the hell out of the kit, you're sending a
short (shorter than normal for a drum) impulse with very few overtones into
the room - if you've got a decent room & room mics, then it can sound good.
Same thing goes with any external 'verbs you use... if you're gating
everything, you're sending a short impulse into the 'verb with very few
overtones to cloud things up.

I remember on a few occasions taking this even further & dialing in a
separate reverb space for kick, snare, toms, and then another one for the
rest of the kit - crazy, huh? It was like listening to a friggin' Lexicon
demo: "Well, we've got channel one of this 480L on kick, channel two on
snare; I kinda wanted to use the other one too, but we need at least one
480L plate for vocals, so we're using the PCM70 on toms & the M300 on the
rest of the kit." lol.

What you end up with is a very discrete drum sound that's almost like
replacing every hit with samples, which some people like & some people
don't; but sometimes it can work.... whatever works, right?

Especially the kick drum? I find I need, without
exception, at least 10-15dB of EQ for the click of the drum to be heard,
yet
I keep reading about all these people who record resonant kick drums with
no
muffling, and seem to have no problem.

I think it all depends on finding the right mic for the drum & room
combination. Some mics are going to emphasize that click & lop out some
low-mids all by themselves (the Audix D-6 comes immediately to mind) & as a
result, won't need **** for EQ. Some mics you're better off not EQ-ing the
high end, but you'll often need to cut elsewhere (D-112). I say if you need
10-15dB, then go for it... your EQ goes up to what +15? +20? It's there for
a reason... do you think they would design it so you can get that much of a
boost or cut, but with the intention that you never use it under any
circumstances? Yeah it's really nice when you can just find the right mic,
plug it into the right preamp & BAM! you've got the sound, but that ain't
always the case, so I say do what you gotta do.

Neil Henderson

The recording sounded FANTASTIC.

I think you answered the question.

The recording sounded FANTASTIC.

There you go!


I've recorded both ways and my decision to do so was based on the type of
drum sound that was trying to be achieved at the end. When I've used
overheads and a kick mic I've been trying to emulate a Beatles type sound or
a brush kit or something natural sounding with plenty of ambience. For me
(and a lot of classic records) this isn't the sound of drums on most rock
records. They don't sound natural but do fit. For me rock drum sounds come
from a lot of the treatments you speak of (compression and gating being the
most important) and the presence of a heavily compressed room mic to mix
into the overheads and close miked kit totally does the trick as far as I'm
concerned.

Something I do try to get away without is baffling up drums with tape and
the like. Learning how to tune drums properly means that you rarely have to
resort to this (except the snare most of the time which always seems to need
a little taming as far as ring is concerned).

best of luck

Martin

"TJ Hertz" wrote in message
. uk...
So, what gives? If gating, muffling and generous use of compression can
sound this good, why do so many people say it's a bad thing? Granted, the
sound wouldn't work for everyone, it was definitely a heavy rock sound,
but
within the genre, anyway?

I re-mixed an old track I had lying around the way this engineer did it,
and
got good results with a large handful of gating and EQ, so it's not just
my
gear or his. What are your thoughts on all this, and if you've managed to
get a nice recording using 3 mics or some kind of fairly minimalist setup,
how did you do it? Especially the kick drum? I find I need, without
exception, at least 10-15dB of EQ for the click of the drum to be heard,
yet
I keep reading about all these people who record resonant kick drums with
no
muffling, and seem to have no problem.

The less mics you use the more dependent you are on the sound of the kit and
the room. It's hard to hear with your ears (or mine at least) just from
listening to the kit in the room, but if I record a single mic from a few
feet in front of the kit I can tell pretty quickly if the room is going to
help me or not.

Other than that I have a lot of untested conjecture about what should sound
good, but every time I record I always learn something new, and usually
contray to what I think or have heard. What I know for a fact is that if the
drums don't sound good from behind the kit I'm not going to find a very
inspired performance.

Sean

First recording session I did was for a gospel group at a studio. Drums
were there. A real ragged out set. The engineer had tape all over them,
and they sounded like crap........except on the tape!!!!!!

Whatever he did, it worked.

Another session, I had my fiberglass set, the guy came in and wanted me
to put all kinds of tape and crap on the heads ala van Halen....I more
of less refused, because I believed in the sound. So I eventually gave
in a bit, and put some small sections of paper towel in the upper
edges, with a small amount of duct tape to hold them in place--it
worked fine!

I did a demo tape for a KISS tirbute band audition, and I did NOTHING
to my drums..pinstrpies, no muffling, no tape, single headed
fiberglass concert toms!
Sound was HUGE!


DDSD

Two factors that you failed to mention: I'm assuming that you did not hear
the kit with new heads and without all the tape, gating, compression and EQ.
The other is that you did not hear the final mix on a reference system
outside the studio; ie, your car or home stereo. I would bet money that when
you hear it the drums will sound dead as a doornail with way too much
reverb. I've usually found that if the engineeer is using that much
electronic manipulation, most of which should be added later in the process,
that he is mixing the drums to impress himself and the client by making them
sound "sizzle and boom" in the control room while bosing himself into that
drum sound later in the mix. Anything you add before the mix cannot be taken
out, at least going to tape.

--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
2091 Front Street
Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio 44221
website http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
email
330 940 DRUM (3786)
toll free 866 970 0800
fax 330 940 3785

"If thine enemy wrong thee,
buy each of his children a drum."
-Chinese proverb
"TJ Hertz" wrote in message
. uk...
Hi,

I sat in on a recording at a local studio today to get some experience as
an
engineer. The band were a local alt rock/metal act with a pretty good
drummer. What I noticed vis-a-vis drum sounds was the engineer's approach
to
sound modification - there was a fair bit of duct tape on the toms (which
already had old, worn Pinstripe heads), kick half full of sheets and
blankets, a mic on every drum (2 on snare) etc. Now, I've always
subscribed
to the 'less is more' approach to recording. Y'know, nice open sound, a
room
mic or two and a kick mic, etc. I like the idea of that. But this guy put
tape on every drum (the snare was pretty dead too, although the kit was an
older Pearl MMX which actually sounded quite nice even with muffling), ran
every drum through a gate, compressed everything including overheads and
generally EQed the kit into oblivion.

The mic configuration - MD421 on each tom, 57 top and bottom of snare, AKG
C91 (I think) on hats, Beta 51 on kick, C451s on overheads (AB config over
each side of the kit) and two high-dollar large diaphragm condensors as AB
room mics. The thing is, even with all this duct tapery and excessive
signal
processing which everyone seems to abhorr completely...

The recording sounded FANTASTIC. Within the genre of alt rock/metal,
anyway.
The toms didn't sound dead at all on recording and with a bit of reverb,
the
snare opened up into a great rock punch. The gating did nothing but make
the
power of the drums stand out. I was shocked. I felt wholly unclean to
actually be enjoying such a breach of drumming integrity. It wasn't just
in
the skill of the player, because as I said, he was a pretty good drummer,
not an amazing one.

Conversely, I record with wide open toms with single ply heads top and
bottom, little or no gating, a small pillow in the kick and 2 overheads,
snare and kick mic. My recordings suck by comparison. In order to get
anywhere NEAR enough definition from the kick, I have to mult the signal
and
EQ one of the tracks low and one with ridiculously boosted 3-4kHz on a
high
shelf. The drums sound nice enough on their own for a home recording, and
sound great when I'm playing them in the room, but they drop right out of
the mix as soon as they see a guitar. Even when I close mic the toms,
they're way underneath everything else. Plus, the kit seems undefined,
like
the individual hits aren't coming through well enough. So much for only
using overheads and kick.

So, what gives? If gating, muffling and generous use of compression can
sound this good, why do so many people say it's a bad thing? Granted, the
sound wouldn't work for everyone, it was definitely a heavy rock sound,
but
within the genre, anyway?

I re-mixed an old track I had lying around the way this engineer did it,
and
got good results with a large handful of gating and EQ, so it's not just
my
gear or his. What are your thoughts on all this, and if you've managed to
get a nice recording using 3 mics or some kind of fairly minimalist setup,
how did you do it? Especially the kick drum? I find I need, without
exception, at least 10-15dB of EQ for the click of the drum to be heard,
yet
I keep reading about all these people who record resonant kick drums with
no
muffling, and seem to have no problem.

Your thoughts?

Thanks

TJ

--
tj hertz

bring on the dry wood, torches & tar - we have a heretic amongst us!

George Lawrence wrote:
Two factors that you failed to mention: I'm assuming that you did not
hear the kit with new heads and without all the tape, gating,
compression and EQ. The other is that you did not hear the final mix
on a reference system outside the studio; ie, your car or home
stereo. I would bet money that when you hear it the drums will sound
dead as a doornail with way too much reverb. I've usually found that
if the engineeer is using that much electronic manipulation, most of
which should be added later in the process, that he is mixing the
drums to impress himself and the client by making them sound "sizzle
and boom" in the control room while bosing himself into that drum
sound later in the mix. Anything you add before the mix cannot be
taken out, at least going to tape.



No - but I've heard my kits with new heads and no muffling, and I do know
how to tune drums. Whatever it is I'm getting wrong, the sound *I* get to
tape doesn't have any definition to it.

I hear you on the reference speaker issue - I have heard some of his final
mixes and they do sound a bit too close-miked - but nothing drastic that a
bit more reverb wouldn't hide adequately. I heard the toms before gating and
they sounded fine; gating just seemed to add punch and take away some of the
mud.

--
tj hertz

Sugarite wrote:
Conversely, I record with wide open toms with single ply heads top
and bottom, little or no gating, a small pillow in the kick and 2
overheads, snare and kick mic.

I dislike gating for different reasons - the lack of control and the
distortion to the initial attack. You should try what I do with toms
- manual gating. Isolate each shot in an editor, open just ahead and
fade out however sounds most natural. While the toms are actually
sounding there is no additional processing, so you get precise
control while satisfying your puritan sensibilities. If you've got a
suitable editor it really doesn't take that long once you get the
hang of it. Even if there's 50 shots to isolate in a song I get it
overwith in maybe 1/2 hour tops. It doesn't require your A rig, a
lappie and headphones will suffice, and you can still charge full
wage.


That's what he did on toms, sorry, though kick and snare gating were done by
a processor.

I also have a cute trick for the snare - put a hypercardioid dynamic
under the snare up close to the chain, and while it doesn't sound
good, it gets great isolation on the snare, so use that as the
trigger for a gate on an SM57 above the snare, and pre-delay it a
couple ms to make sure the gate is fully open for the attack.
Similarily, a gate plug-in doesn't affect the sound while it's fully
open.


Cool idea, though what about buzz from the toms etc? I don't mind the sound,
but it does kinda lessen its effectiveness in this situation.

The other problem is that although compression and gating on one channel
works fine, any DAW running on my PC won't run fast enough to reliably use a
sidechain. It'll take about half a second to open the gate. :-)

--
tj hertz

Sean Conolly wrote:
"TJ Hertz" wrote in message
. uk...

So, what gives? If gating, muffling and generous use of compression can
sound this good, why do so many people say it's a bad thing? Granted, the
sound wouldn't work for everyone, it was definitely a heavy rock sound,

but

within the genre, anyway?

I re-mixed an old track I had lying around the way this engineer did it,

and

got good results with a large handful of gating and EQ, so it's not just

my

gear or his. What are your thoughts on all this, and if you've managed to
get a nice recording using 3 mics or some kind of fairly minimalist setup,
how did you do it? Especially the kick drum? I find I need, without
exception, at least 10-15dB of EQ for the click of the drum to be heard,

yet

I keep reading about all these people who record resonant kick drums with

no

muffling, and seem to have no problem.


The less mics you use the more dependent you are on the sound of the kit and
the room. It's hard to hear with your ears (or mine at least) just from
listening to the kit in the room, but if I record a single mic from a few
feet in front of the kit I can tell pretty quickly if the room is going to
help me or not.

Other than that I have a lot of untested conjecture about what should sound
good, but every time I record I always learn something new, and usually
contray to what I think or have heard. What I know for a fact is that if the
drums don't sound good from behind the kit I'm not going to find a very
inspired performance.

Sean

Wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that the drummer was hearing some
semblance of the final sound in his headphones, rather than the dull
acoustic thud of the muffled instruments?

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, change the chemical designation to its common name.

Ultimately you are always at the mercy of the tools you have available,
and the biggest 'tool' may be sitting behind the console.

I've always been the most satisfied when I've been allowed to get
the kit sounding great and then getting that sound on tape with the
least amount of electronic gee-gaw as possible. Granted this process
can take a bit longer and requires a good sounding room and a decent
knowledge of microphones and microphone placement. Old school, baby!

I have recorded on taped-up drums with ragged out heads and the results
came out fine, albeit a little lifeless. I'm quite often very
surprised to see the condition of the house kits in some otherwise well
equip studios.

If I'm invited or encouraged to participate in dialing in the drum
sound, I'll always opt for a more natural, low-tech approach but I
won't beat myself up if a few compromises is necessary to get the job
done.

On the other hand, if someone else is calling the shots and I'm just
a mercenary, I'll play whatever they want as long as they aren't
slapping **** all over my kit. More often than not, when I get a final
mix from these sessions, I'm disappointed with the sound but I have
been pleasantly surprised on more than one occasion.

"TJ Hertz" wrote in
. uk:

Your thoughts?

Thanks

TJ

--
tj hertz


Obviously this is situationally dependent. The more you compress a drum,
the more you limit it's dynamic range but the louder you can make it. With
heavier music this fits well because there isn't as much dynamic range as
there is with say jazz. With more dynamic styles of music gates are not as
effective, but when they are set right, no matter what the style of music
is, the will help to make a more isolated track. As far as tape goes, if
the drums aren't great and the heads are old, sometimes you just can't tune
them well enough to remove the funky over tones in which case, you can fix
that problem with a little tape loop in about 30 seconds.
To sum up my feelings: natural drums sounds don't sit well in metal and
processed drum sounds don't sit well in jazz.



--
Lee

"The world is basically made up of two kinds of people: assholes
and ass kickers, you gotta bend over or lift your foot."
- Frank Zappa

Lee Jones wrote: To sum up my feelings: natural drums sounds don't sit
well in metal and processed drum sounds don't sit well in jazz.


Unless by metal you mean Led Zep and by jazz you mean Chick Corea's
Elektric Band.








--
Lee

"The world is basically made up of two kinds of people: assholes
and ass kickers, you gotta bend over or lift your foot."
- Frank Zappa

do what you like. whtehr or not something is the current sound for rock though,
shouldn't be a factor. most records sound god-awful to me.


P h i l i p

______________________________

"I'm too ****ing busy and vice-versa"

- Dorothy Parker

I also have a cute trick for the snare - put a hypercardioid dynamic
under the snare up close to the chain, and while it doesn't sound
good, it gets great isolation on the snare, so use that as the
trigger for a gate on an SM57 above the snare, and pre-delay it a
couple ms to make sure the gate is fully open for the attack.
Similarily, a gate plug-in doesn't affect the sound while it's fully
open.


Cool idea, though what about buzz from the toms etc? I don't mind the
sound,
but it does kinda lessen its effectiveness in this situation.

Bleed-buzz is not nearly as loud as a snare shot, there's a decent margin to
work with there, and remember you can EQ the chain to your heart's content.
It's only the occasional moster kick/crash combo that can open it, and you
just cut that out of the chain track. I've also considered sticking a piezo
pick-up to the side of the snare, but it hasn't been necessary.

The other problem is that although compression and gating on one channel
works fine, any DAW running on my PC won't run fast enough to reliably use
a
sidechain. It'll take about half a second to open the gate. :-)

A gate isn't a CPU-intensive process, sidechain or not. You can compare
waveforms if you're uncertain about the gate opening soon enough.

Sugarite wrote:
A gate isn't a CPU-intensive process, sidechain or not. You can
compare waveforms if you're uncertain about the gate opening soon
enough.

I guess not, but all I can say is that there is *definitely* a delay when I
use a sidechain on a compressor or gate on Sonar even though normal gating
works fine. I use the dB series plugins for sidechain work, because they're
the only ones I can find that do sidechains and I like the sound of their
compressors/limiters/multiband.

--
tj hertz

Lee Jones wrote:
To sum up my feelings: natural drums sounds don't sit
well in metal and processed drum sounds don't sit well in jazz

Unless by metal you mean Led Zep and by jazz you mean Chick Corea's
Elektric Band.

Yep - there's a huge spectrum of drum sounds, appropriate (and very
different) recording techniques for each of them, and lots of musical
styles for which they are suited. Some of those styles (and sounds) may
be out of fashion in certain circles, but you'd be hard-pressed to find
a style or sound with no examples of excellence.

Let's consider the heavily-processed studio sound. Dire Straits is an
example that pops into my mind. There is NO intention of accurately
reproducing the actual sound of a fine musical instrument, instead the
producer is aiming to get each instrument to function as one single
super-instrument. The purpose of the kick is to BE the attack of the
bass guitar - so you don't want much of its tone. Each drum or cymbal
might have different compression, EQ & reverb, to server the sound "as
a whole".

The "bombastic ambience" sound of Bonham could also be described as
"processing", except that the engineer used a big room and distant mics
to get the effect he was after. No illusion of a single
super-instrument here, the drums stand out in stark relief. Note that
I'm not talking about the music here, just how the sounds sit.

All us virtuous RMMPers (the non-heretics) love the acoustic sound of
fine drums tuned well, and therefore favour recording techniques that
most accurately reproduce that. But those sounds might not work to
create a pop "super-instrument", and in the Led Zep context they'd
suffer a lack of balls. But for jazz and unplugged styles it's just
perfect.

"D2" wrote in news:1105984039.052312.28070
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:


Lee Jones wrote: To sum up my feelings: natural drums sounds don't sit
well in metal and processed drum sounds don't sit well in jazz.


Unless by metal you mean Led Zep and by jazz you mean Chick Corea's
Elektric Band.
]

Good point and without a doubt. What I was trying to do was describe the
opposite ends of the spectrum, accoustic jazz and heavy metal. The lines
certainly get blurred along the way. Zeppelin played many different
styles of music and had many dynamic passages within their songs. The
different versions of the Elektric band were extremely dynamic, yet not
as dynamic as the accoustic band and used louder instruments to convey
their message. There are as many different positions on the dials of a
compressor/gate as there are styles of music and rightfully so.

Close micing is really the norm. I prefer individual micing and a good pair
of room mics to be able to pick and choose when mixing. One of the biggest
factors is the room. Leave it as live as possible.

--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
2091 Front Street
Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio 44221
website http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
email
330 940 DRUM (3786)
toll free 866 970 0800
fax 330 940 3785

"If thine enemy wrong thee,
buy each of his children a drum."
-Chinese proverb
"TJ Hertz" wrote in message
. uk...
George Lawrence wrote:
Two factors that you failed to mention: I'm assuming that you did not
hear the kit with new heads and without all the tape, gating,
compression and EQ. The other is that you did not hear the final mix
on a reference system outside the studio; ie, your car or home
stereo. I would bet money that when you hear it the drums will sound
dead as a doornail with way too much reverb. I've usually found that
if the engineeer is using that much electronic manipulation, most of
which should be added later in the process, that he is mixing the
drums to impress himself and the client by making them sound "sizzle
and boom" in the control room while bosing himself into that drum
sound later in the mix. Anything you add before the mix cannot be
taken out, at least going to tape.



No - but I've heard my kits with new heads and no muffling, and I do know
how to tune drums. Whatever it is I'm getting wrong, the sound *I* get to
tape doesn't have any definition to it.

I hear you on the reference speaker issue - I have heard some of his final
mixes and they do sound a bit too close-miked - but nothing drastic that a
bit more reverb wouldn't hide adequately. I heard the toms before gating
and
they sounded fine; gating just seemed to add punch and take away some of
the
mud.

--
tj hertz

U¿ytkownik "Sugarite" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
I also have a cute trick for the snare - put a hypercardioid dynamic
under the snare up close to the chain, and while it doesn't sound
good, it gets great isolation on the snare, so use that as the
trigger for a gate on an SM57 above the snare, and pre-delay it a
couple ms to make sure the gate is fully open for the attack.
Similarily, a gate plug-in doesn't affect the sound while it's fully
open.


Cool idea, though what about buzz from the toms etc? I don't mind the
sound,
but it does kinda lessen its effectiveness in this situation.

Bleed-buzz is not nearly as loud as a snare shot, there's a decent margin
to
work with there, and remember you can EQ the chain to your heart's
content.
It's only the occasional moster kick/crash combo that can open it, and you
just cut that out of the chain track. I've also considered sticking a
piezo
pick-up to the side of the snare, but it hasn't been necessary.


* And how do you guys manage to clear out the toms tracks, on which snare
buzz
is very loud ? Are there some "mechanical" tricks (on drums) or maybe some
"electronical"
tricks (i.e. in a DAW - playing with phases or smth ?).

--
Oregano Chino

"George Lawrence" wrote in message
. com...
The way to get around the chopping off of the initial hit attack by the
gate is to use trigges on the drums to open the gates. They are slightly
faster than the microphone. A world of difference.

Plus the it doesn't false trigger as much, a good snare hit will open every
gate on the kit otherwise.

Sean

Single ply heads are just not the right selection if you are close mic'ing,
unless you are recording jazz. As a drummer, I don't like mechanically
dampering a drum, but then if I was using single ply heads, I wouldn't
attempt to close mic. The right head for the job is extremely important.
I'd bet that if you used somthing like Evans Hydraulic batter heads for your
toms and maybe a Genera HD Dry batter for the snare, you'd get much better
results. Still some natural sustain, but zero overtone problems.

Single ply heads may sound OK from a distance (still way to much overtone &
sustain for me), but you need to consider a two ply head at the very least
if you intend to close mic without mechanical dampening.

Bill Ruys.

"TJ Hertz" wrote in message
. uk...
George Lawrence wrote:
Two factors that you failed to mention: I'm assuming that you did not
hear the kit with new heads and without all the tape, gating,
compression and EQ. The other is that you did not hear the final mix
on a reference system outside the studio; ie, your car or home
stereo. I would bet money that when you hear it the drums will sound
dead as a doornail with way too much reverb. I've usually found that
if the engineeer is using that much electronic manipulation, most of
which should be added later in the process, that he is mixing the
drums to impress himself and the client by making them sound "sizzle
and boom" in the control room while bosing himself into that drum
sound later in the mix. Anything you add before the mix cannot be
taken out, at least going to tape.



No - but I've heard my kits with new heads and no muffling, and I do know
how to tune drums. Whatever it is I'm getting wrong, the sound *I* get to
tape doesn't have any definition to it.

I hear you on the reference speaker issue - I have heard some of his final
mixes and they do sound a bit too close-miked - but nothing drastic that a
bit more reverb wouldn't hide adequately. I heard the toms before gating
and
they sounded fine; gating just seemed to add punch and take away some of
the
mud.

--
tj hertz

"Bill Ruys" wrote in message
...
Single ply heads are just not the right selection if you are close
mic'ing, unless you are recording jazz. As a drummer, I don't like
mechanically dampering a drum, but then if I was using single ply heads, I
wouldn't attempt to close mic. The right head for the job is extremely
important. I'd bet that if you used somthing like Evans Hydraulic batter
heads for your toms and maybe a Genera HD Dry batter for the snare, you'd
get much better results. Still some natural sustain, but zero overtone
problems.

I'm using them on close miked smaller toms with an electric R&B project, and
they record more clearly than the 2 ply heads. I find 2 ply heads provide
better low end articulation on the larger toms, though.

TJ Hertz wrote:
George Lawrence wrote:
Two factors that you failed to mention: I'm assuming that you did
not
hear the kit with new heads and without all the tape, gating,
compression and EQ. The other is that you did not hear the final
mix
on a reference system outside the studio; ie, your car or home
stereo. I would bet money that when you hear it the drums will
sound
dead as a doornail with way too much reverb. I've usually found
that
if the engineeer is using that much electronic manipulation, most
of
which should be added later in the process, that he is mixing the
drums to impress himself and the client by making them sound
"sizzle
and boom" in the control room while bosing himself into that drum
sound later in the mix. Anything you add before the mix cannot be
taken out, at least going to tape.



No - but I've heard my kits with new heads and no muffling, and I do
know
how to tune drums. Whatever it is I'm getting wrong, the sound *I*
get to
tape doesn't have any definition to it.

I hear you on the reference speaker issue - I have heard some of his
final
mixes and they do sound a bit too close-miked - but nothing drastic
that a
bit more reverb wouldn't hide adequately. I heard the toms before
gating and
they sounded fine; gating just seemed to add punch and take away some
of the
mud.

Check phase and mic polarity.

I disagree totally. I've always used single ply coated or clears on
sessions, no damping, close miced for all types of music. If the microphones
are right, the room is right and the engineer knows what he's doing then it
sounds right. This is what most of the pros use in sessions. The object is
to get as much attack and brightness out of a head: You can take it away
but you can't add it in the mix. You will not see Evans hydraulics used by
most drummers in recording sessions. Gadd got away with it in the seventies.
His toms sounded like wet blankets. :-)

--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
2091 Front Street
Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio 44221
website http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
email
330 940 DRUM (3786)
toll free 866 970 0800
fax 330 940 3785

"If thine enemy wrong thee,
buy each of his children a drum."
-Chinese proverb
"Bill Ruys" wrote in message
...
Single ply heads are just not the right selection if you are close
mic'ing,
unless you are recording jazz. As a drummer, I don't like mechanically
dampering a drum, but then if I was using single ply heads, I wouldn't
attempt to close mic. The right head for the job is extremely important.
I'd bet that if you used somthing like Evans Hydraulic batter heads for
your
toms and maybe a Genera HD Dry batter for the snare, you'd get much better
results. Still some natural sustain, but zero overtone problems.

Single ply heads may sound OK from a distance (still way to much overtone
&
sustain for me), but you need to consider a two ply head at the very least
if you intend to close mic without mechanical dampening.

Bill Ruys.

"TJ Hertz" wrote in message
. uk...
George Lawrence wrote:
Two factors that you failed to mention: I'm assuming that you did not
hear the kit with new heads and without all the tape, gating,
compression and EQ. The other is that you did not hear the final mix
on a reference system outside the studio; ie, your car or home
stereo. I would bet money that when you hear it the drums will sound
dead as a doornail with way too much reverb. I've usually found that
if the engineeer is using that much electronic manipulation, most of
which should be added later in the process, that he is mixing the
drums to impress himself and the client by making them sound "sizzle
and boom" in the control room while bosing himself into that drum
sound later in the mix. Anything you add before the mix cannot be
taken out, at least going to tape.



No - but I've heard my kits with new heads and no muffling, and I do
know
how to tune drums. Whatever it is I'm getting wrong, the sound *I* get
to
tape doesn't have any definition to it.

I hear you on the reference speaker issue - I have heard some of his
final
mixes and they do sound a bit too close-miked - but nothing drastic that
a
bit more reverb wouldn't hide adequately. I heard the toms before gating
and
they sounded fine; gating just seemed to add punch and take away some of
the
mud.

--
tj hertz