Joseph Oberlander wrote:

I would love to show him the Liberty my friend has and
how it kept being towed out of and over things while
my other friend and her were offroading. His old Bronco
had no problems. Neither did his Wrangler a few months
later. The Liberty is a yuppie toy offroad.

Darn, and here I thought this was an audio forum and the topic was
audio systems.

That aside, factory sound systems stink with the exception
of a few of the Lexus and Volvos(Mercedes fails because
they still don't see a CD player as standard equipment
and it's integrated into the security system, for instance).

Delusions of omnisicence noted.

$1200 for an audio system that you could beat with stock
Kenwood parts and $600 at your local audio sound store - some
price savings. Factory options are the biggest scam in
the automotive industry.

Additional delusions of omniscience and delusions of being a unbiased
judge of good sound, noted.

In fact there are any number of OEM sound systems that sound great. A
lot of what you pay for with a factory sound system isn't reflected in
the sound - its reflected in the fact that its built to last out the
rest of the car's warranty, which most after-market sound systems
aren't.

For example, OEMs pay about the same money or even a little more in
10,000 lots for receiver chassis as you'll pay for just one down at the
corner CarTunes shop. The major difference is how long the respective
devices are warranteed for, and how long they will actually, on the
average, last.

Arny Krueger wrote:

Joseph Oberlander wrote:


I would love to show him the Liberty my friend has and
how it kept being towed out of and over things while
my other friend and her were offroading. His old Bronco
had no problems. Neither did his Wrangler a few months
later. The Liberty is a yuppie toy offroad.


Darn, and here I thought this was an audio forum and the topic was
audio systems.


That aside, factory sound systems stink with the exception
of a few of the Lexus and Volvos(Mercedes fails because
they still don't see a CD player as standard equipment
and it's integrated into the security system, for instance).


Delusions of omnisicence noted.

No, most factory systems sound like crap. The Bose syndrome.
Okay sound but at insane markups(let alone the cars with
Bose in them)

$1200 for an audio system that you could beat with stock
Kenwood parts and $600 at your local audio sound store - some
price savings. Factory options are the biggest scam in
the automotive industry.


Additional delusions of omniscience and delusions of being a unbiased
judge of good sound, noted.

I never said I was unbiased. So the rest of this blather of yours
is meaningless. I'm biased as hell, so live with it, Arny.

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:

$1200 for an audio system that you could beat with stock
Kenwood parts and $600 at your local audio sound store - some
price savings. Factory options are the biggest scam in
the automotive industry.

Additional delusions of omniscience and delusions of being a
unbiased
judge of good sound, noted.

I never said I was unbiased.

OK, Joe so then it is safe to assume that your claims are due to your
biases, not any possible actual lacking in OEM sound systems. Why did
you bother to write anything at all if all you're going to talk about
is your biases?

"Arny Krueger" said:

I never said I was unbiased.

OK, Joe so then it is safe to assume that your claims are due to your
biases, not any possible actual lacking in OEM sound systems. Why did
you bother to write anything at all if all you're going to talk about
is your biases?

Just like you and your anti- High End bias?
Remember your comments about Sonus Faber which you have never heard,
but nevertheless commented negatively about?

By Kroologic, it is safe to assume that all your comments are due to
this anti-High End bias of yours.

That would make sense, and if you were for once man enough to admit
it, we'd all be able to move on.
Even Ferstler admitted that his goal is to destroy the Evil High End
Establishment.

"At least" he is man enough.

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

Sander deWaal wrote:

"Arny Krueger" said:


I never said I was unbiased.


OK, Joe so then it is safe to assume that your claims are due to your
biases, not any possible actual lacking in OEM sound systems. Why did
you bother to write anything at all if all you're going to talk about
is your biases?


Just like you and your anti- High End bias?
Remember your comments about Sonus Faber which you have never heard,
but nevertheless commented negatively about?

Just pointing out that if we had no bias, we'd not be
even posting on UseNet.

Humans are flawed and biased. Some, like Kreuger,
though, refuse to deal with it.

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
k.net...


\
Humans are flawed and biased. Some, like Kreuger,
though, refuse to deal with it.


Most likely because he's flawed and biased.

Arny Krueger wrote:

Joseph Oberlander wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:


$1200 for an audio system that you could beat with stock
Kenwood parts and $600 at your local audio sound store - some
price savings. Factory options are the biggest scam in
the automotive industry.


Additional delusions of omniscience and delusions of being a

unbiased

judge of good sound, noted.


I never said I was unbiased.


OK, Joe so then it is safe to assume that your claims are due to your
biases, not any possible actual lacking in OEM sound systems. Why did
you bother to write anything at all if all you're going to talk about
is your biases?

Well, again, it's like Bose - car audio is often so deficient
that it's nearly unlistenable. Now, a few do have good custom
factory systems, but I said that in the beginning - that
there are some that are good, but the vast majority are junk
not worth being gouged for.

Joseph Oberlander wrote:

Well, again, it's like Bose - car audio is often so deficient
that it's nearly unlistenable.

About this, I can't disagree.

Now, a few do have good custom factory systems,

IME, more than a few...

Car sound provides unique opportunities for the audio system design
engineer, such as the ability to have almost complete control over
listener location and listening *room* configuration. The room itself
is acoustically advantageous in several ways - its small which favors
deep bass, and it tends to be well-padded which favors clarity.

There is also a systematic cash advantage for the audio system design
staff - some of the car companies base engineering staff annual reviews
on Powers customer survey results. Perceived sound quality weighs
heavily.

As Nousiane has pointed out, this system tends to keep even Bose on a
short leash, sound quality-wise.

but I said that in the beginning - that
there are some that are good, but the vast majority are junk
not worth being gouged for.

You don't really know that Joseph - you damage your crediblty with such
loose talk. OEM sound quality is definately on the rise, and in many
cases it is far better than merely nice or acceptable.

That all said, both of my vehicles which are older, have after-market
sound systems. OEM sound systems as a group have improved considerably
since 1995.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
oups.com...

Joseph Oberlander wrote:

I would love to show him the Liberty my friend has and
how it kept being towed out of and over things while
my other friend and her were offroading. His old Bronco
had no problems. Neither did his Wrangler a few months
later. The Liberty is a yuppie toy offroad.

Darn, and here I thought this was an audio forum and the topic was
audio systems.

That aside, factory sound systems stink with the exception
of a few of the Lexus and Volvos(Mercedes fails because
they still don't see a CD player as standard equipment
and it's integrated into the security system, for instance).

Delusions of omnisicence noted.

$1200 for an audio system that you could beat with stock
Kenwood parts and $600 at your local audio sound store - some
price savings. Factory options are the biggest scam in
the automotive industry.

Additional delusions of omniscience and delusions of being a unbiased
judge of good sound, noted.

In fact there are any number of OEM sound systems that sound great. A
lot of what you pay for with a factory sound system isn't reflected in
the sound - its reflected in the fact that its built to last out the
rest of the car's warranty, which most after-market sound systems
aren't.

For example, OEMs pay about the same money or even a little more in
10,000 lots for receiver chassis as you'll pay for just one down at the
corner CarTunes shop. The major difference is how long the respective
devices are warranteed for, and how long they will actually, on the
average, last.

There's also the fact that a good factory installed system has been
engineered to sound good in the particular car it is installed in. After
market systems IME aren't.