"Chung" wrote in message
...
S888Wheel wrote:
From: Chung
Date: 12/30/2004 8:12 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

S888Wheel wrote:
From: Steven Sullivan
Date: 12/28/2004 7:33 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

michael wrote:
S888Wheel wrote:

From: michael


Yes, I'm not sure that your personal experience is a universal
base
line
though.

In any case, from home transfers it is clear that the analog
signal differs greatly from a digital source when strictly
considering
non-musical program noise.


I'm not questioning what you found to be true with *your*
transfers,
only
the
universitality of it.

I snipped out most of the thread becuase anyone interested can go
back
and read. This back and forth is getting unmanagable. Anyhow, to
recap: I claimed that when recording from a turntable to a CD there
exists alot of analog grundge that is heard and is also shown
graphically by VU meters. This stuff is non-musical noise. Now it
appears that you are arguing the validity of this?

My suggestion: take a turntable, any turntable, and get yourself
some
analog to digital software. Use any album you like. If you want to
replicate my results then I'll tell you that I use Audacity on
Linux;
I'm sure there are many other similar applications out there you may
use--even Windows applications. :-)

Next, place the stylus in the lead in or the lead out groove, or any
silent passage you like. Finally, watch the vu meters bob up and
down
with peaks around the -40dB value when there is supposed to be
"quietness". It helps to have a good set of headphones for
monitoring.
I use Sennheisers. Once you have done this several hundred times,
or
even just once or twice, then post about the "universality" of the
experiment.

Yep, the behavior you see is not unusual; you're seeing the surface
noise
of vinyl, which even for the *best*, *cleanest* LP is noisier than
digital silence. It *is* a universal phenomenon.

Vinylphiles IME are loath to admit any deficiencies of their favorite
medium, but to deny the universal existence of surface noise in vinyl,
is to be, well, in denial.

Please cite one example of anyone denying the existance of surface
noise.

Well, here is what you said: "Kind of a broad claim based on limited
experience don't you think?". That was in response to michael's
statement that there is noticeable noise observed from LP systems. Seems
to me that you were at least questioning the universal existance of
surface noise...

Then you are mistaken. I was questioning the notion that his experience
was
indicative of the best the medium has to offer in performance. His
statement
wasn't that there was just noticable noise but it gave very specific
meansurments of how much but that was based on his records on his rig. I
was
simply pointing out that this limited experience is not neccessarily
evidence
of the limitations of the medium but just his records on his rig.

Michael's experience was that the LP noise is very noticeable on a
digital readout as soon as the needle contacts the "lead-in" groove.
That is universally true. You seem to be saying that on some
recordings/set-ups the LP noise is not noticeable this way. That's quite
an extraordinary claim, given that the surface noise is 20 dB or more
higher than the sensitivity of today's 16-bit or higher A-D converters.

That's not an extraordinary claim at all as anybody with a really good vinyl
rig and properly installed line-contact stylus can tell you. The noise
simply becomes virtually inaudible at any normal listening level during
normal playback and even between tracks, no matter what the meters show (and
I can see it plain enough on my Marantz CD Recorder).





Can you cite any example where the vinyl noise cannot be heard?

Do you live in the L.A area? I'll demonstrate it for you.

Given the easily measureable noise floor of vinyl, you need to listen
more carefully...


No, Chung, you need to listen to a few really good top-end vinyl systems
before you start in based on "theory".




Digital capture and display of vinyl
transfers simply makes it visible. It can be 'heard through' and thus
ignored, but it's always there.

It is not the same for all records and all TT rigs. That was my point.


It is the same in that the noise is always there.

It isn't the same in nature and level for all rigs and all records
though.

It can always be
heard, no matter how expensive a rig you have, or how clean and pristine
the vinyl is.

I disagree. It is not always noticable.


You perhaps will be the only one with this belief.

Nope, count me in...and virtually every audiophile who continues to enjoy
vinyl.

Harry Lavo wrote:


Michael's experience was that the LP noise is very noticeable on a
digital readout as soon as the needle contacts the "lead-in" groove.
That is universally true. You seem to be saying that on some
recordings/set-ups the LP noise is not noticeable this way. That's quite
an extraordinary claim, given that the surface noise is 20 dB or more
higher than the sensitivity of today's 16-bit or higher A-D converters.

That's not an extraordinary claim at all as anybody with a really good vinyl
rig and properly installed line-contact stylus can tell you. The noise
simply becomes virtually inaudible at any normal listening level during
normal playback and even between tracks, no matter what the meters show (and
I can see it plain enough on my Marantz CD Recorder).


Thanks for agreeing that the noise is noticeable on the meter, even on
your presumably SOTA vinyl rig. Mr. Wheel seems to think that not all
vinyl setups have noise that show up like what Michael saw. That was the
extraordinary claim.






Can you cite any example where the vinyl noise cannot be heard?

Do you live in the L.A area? I'll demonstrate it for you.

Given the easily measureable noise floor of vinyl, you need to listen
more carefully...


No, Chung, you need to listen to a few really good top-end vinyl systems
before you start in based on "theory".


Boy, there again is that rather contemptuous assumption that anyone who
understands the inferioe noise floor of vinyl has not lisrtened to
top-end vinyl...

And it is not just theory. It's theory, measurements and listening.




Digital capture and display of vinyl
transfers simply makes it visible. It can be 'heard through' and thus
ignored, but it's always there.

It is not the same for all records and all TT rigs. That was my point.


It is the same in that the noise is always there.

It isn't the same in nature and level for all rigs and all records
though.

It can always be
heard, no matter how expensive a rig you have, or how clean and pristine
the vinyl is.

I disagree. It is not always noticable.


You perhaps will be the only one with this belief.

Nope, count me in...and virtually every audiophile who continues to enjoy
vinyl.

I enjoy certain vinyl records (and I have been listening to them for
almost 40 years), and I always notice the noise. But of course whether
one is bothered by that noise or not is a separate issue.

On 2 Jan 2005 16:52:27 GMT, "Harry Lavo" wrote:

"Chung" wrote in message
...

Michael's experience was that the LP noise is very noticeable on a
digital readout as soon as the needle contacts the "lead-in" groove.
That is universally true. You seem to be saying that on some
recordings/set-ups the LP noise is not noticeable this way. That's quite
an extraordinary claim, given that the surface noise is 20 dB or more
higher than the sensitivity of today's 16-bit or higher A-D converters.

That's not an extraordinary claim at all as anybody with a really good vinyl
rig and properly installed line-contact stylus can tell you. The noise
simply becomes virtually inaudible at any normal listening level during
normal playback and even between tracks, no matter what the meters show (and
I can see it plain enough on my Marantz CD Recorder).

No, it's audible any time the music is quiet, as anyone in possession
of a high-quality vinyl rig, but *not* in possession of a pro-vinyl
agenda, will confirm.

Can you cite any example where the vinyl noise cannot be heard?

Do you live in the L.A area? I'll demonstrate it for you.

Given the easily measureable noise floor of vinyl, you need to listen
more carefully...

No, Chung, you need to listen to a few really good top-end vinyl systems
before you start in based on "theory".

Tired old strawman argument, and absolute rubbish.

It can always be
heard, no matter how expensive a rig you have, or how clean and pristine
the vinyl is.

I disagree. It is not always noticable.

You perhaps will be the only one with this belief.

Nope, count me in...and virtually every audiophile who continues to enjoy
vinyl.

Nope, I enjoy vinyl, otherwise I wouldn't have a decent vinyl rig, but
I do not choose to blind myself to its *inherent* flaws. I pity those
who find it necessary to stick their heads so firmly in the sand -
this ruins treble reproduction! :-)

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

"Chung" wrote in message
...

That's not an extraordinary claim at all as anybody with a really good vinyl
rig and properly installed line-contact stylus can tell you. The noise
simply becomes virtually inaudible at any normal listening level during
normal playback and even between tracks, no matter what the meters show (and
I can see it plain enough on my Marantz CD Recorder).


No, it's audible any time the music is quiet, as anyone in possession
of a high-quality vinyl rig, but *not* in possession of a pro-vinyl
agenda, will confirm.


First, I'd like to comment on the notion that, at normal listening
levels, vinyl noise is inaudible. I think that in a home environment
with the usual ambient noise this may be true most of the time.
Especially if one is not really paying attention. On the other hand,
using headphones noise is quite pronounced during low level passages and
in between cuts regardless of whether one is critically listening.


The fact that in a normal home environment this gross noise is masked
really makes me wonder about the critical abilities of those that claim
to hear sonic differences from devices such as interconnects, or
amplifiers whose level of distortion is infinitely smaller than what we
are talking about here. I expect that some of those who argue about how
imperceptible vinyl noise is are the first ones to hear differences
among items which, under controlled conditions, make no contribution to
the sound at all. In fine, components that, if they have any measurable
distortion at all, the measured distortion is so low as to be meaningless.


In any case, there is obviously a big difference among records regarding
quality and quantity of noise. With the V-15xMR cartridge tracking at
one gram (plus another half for the damper) I measured the following:


A brand new, only played once copy of "John Coltrane Live at the Village
Vanguard, Again"; 180 gram Virgin Vinyl "Audiophile Remastered" Impulse
disc: silent grooves peaked at -33 dB below 0 (where the loudest
passage on the disc registered -2dB below 0. During the quiet "Intro to
My Favorite Things" passage, surface noise was audible both on
headphones and listening to my Boston Acoustic PC speakers (about 2 feet
away).


An almost new "played a couple of times" copy of "Sound of Joy" by Sun
Ra and the Arkestra on Delmark--a standard LP with no pretensions of
being audiophile grade. Here, the silent tracks peaked at -18 dB below
0. On this record surface noise was even more obvious.


Are my measurements trivial? I think not, but anyone can say anything,
so please don't take my word for it. Indeed, for those of you arguing
that these artifacts are less than important, or somehow only valid for
my specific set up I'd like you to provide your own measurements for the
newsgroup. I for one would certainly be interested in reading about how
a "modern" rig measures up when compared to a 30 year old Thorens TD 160
(although it does have a new belt, an aftermarket felt mat, and one of
those fancy pseudo high-end weights* that sit on the top of the record :-)).


*it's only pseudo high-end since it came from Audio Technica Signet and
only cost about $10.00 new. I've seen real high-end weights that cost
10 to 20 times more, but before I spend that kind of dough I first need
to save up to get a set of those magic wooden thingys to place under the
turntable. You know, the ones with the funny name and that are supposed
to improve the sonic pace and the timing, whatever that means.


michael