First of all, many thanks from this lurker for the loads of information and
entertainment I find on this NG...!

Second, hello to Mike Rivers-- I remember meeting you maybe 20-25 years ago
when you did sound at a park in Maryland for me, Reed Martin, and a bunch of
guys from Indiana! I know that you, at least, are well aware that there are
a lot of instruments that go by the name ³banjo², but don¹t (and aren¹t
supposed to) sound anything like a Mastertone or a Tubaphone!

Anyway, I¹m looking for mic recommendations for recording my banjos-- the
two I use most are both fretless, one with steel strings and the other
strung with gut (and tuned about a 4th below the modern standard pitch). I
play in a very percussive ³clawhammer² or ³rapping² style, and I want that
percussive quality to predominate. These banjos don¹t ring or sparkle; they
thump, crackle, and pop!

To take a tourist¹s stab at expressing myself in the local idiom, I think
what I¹m looking for is good transient response and midrange definition, and
an un-hyped top end.... (do I really understand what I just said?)


T.I.A.

Dan

in article , Dan Gellert at
wrote on 8/12/03 6:08 PM:

First of all, many thanks from this lurker for the loads of information and
entertainment I find on this NG...!

Second, hello to Mike Rivers-- I remember meeting you maybe 20-25 years ago
when you did sound at a park in Maryland for me, Reed Martin, and a bunch of
guys from Indiana! I know that you, at least, are well aware that there are
a lot of instruments that go by the name ³banjo², but don¹t (and aren¹t
supposed to) sound anything like a Mastertone or a Tubaphone!

Anyway, I¹m looking for mic recommendations for recording my banjos-- the
two I use most are both fretless, one with steel strings and the other
strung with gut (and tuned about a 4th below the modern standard pitch). I
play in a very percussive ³clawhammer² or ³rapping² style, and I want that
percussive quality to predominate. These banjos don¹t ring or sparkle; they
thump, crackle, and pop!

To take a tourist¹s stab at expressing myself in the local idiom, I think
what I¹m looking for is good transient response and midrange definition, and
an un-hyped top end.... (do I really understand what I just said?)


T.I.A.

Dan

A ribbon mic (like the Royer R121 or R122, Beyer M160, or Coles (#?) would
most likely do ya fine. Rent a few & try them out.

Good luck,

Winter
--
El Mundo Bueno Studios
"A World of Good Music"

San Francisco, California
http://www.EMBStudios.com

(510) 325-1029

Dan Gellert wrote:

To take a tourist's stab at expressing myself in the local idiom, I think
what I'm looking for is good transient response and midrange definition, and
an un-hyped top end.... (do I really understand what I just said?)

Man, I just love these discussions between banjo players.

g

Offhand, I'd say you haven't mentioned your budget. I'd like to record
those banjos with a Beyer M160 ribbon mic, but I would need a very good
preamp for that mic. I have that. Will you be wanting one of those
preamp things, too?

--
ha

In article writes:

Second, hello to Mike Rivers-- I remember meeting you maybe 20-25 years ago
when you did sound at a park in Maryland for me, Reed Martin, and a bunch of
guys from Indiana!

Dan! I keep hearing tales that you're still alive. When are you going
to come to Banjo Camp? Of course I remember you. I think I may even
have a recording of that show.

Anyway, I¹m looking for mic recommendations for recording my banjos-- the
two I use most are both fretless, one with steel strings and the other
strung with gut (and tuned about a 4th below the modern standard pitch). I
play in a very percussive ³clawhammer² or ³rapping² style, and I want that
percussive quality to predominate. These banjos don¹t ring or sparkle; they
thump, crackle, and pop!

To take a tourist¹s stab at expressing myself in the local idiom, I think
what I¹m looking for is good transient response and midrange definition, and
an un-hyped top end.... (do I really understand what I just said?)

You have a very good grasp of what you want. I've never found that
it's been terribly worth while to spend a lot of time selecting a mic
for a banjo. Somehow they seem to sound like they sound with any
reasonable mic as long as you don't put it too close. When you get
within a couple of inches of the head or strings, you can get a pretty
wide variation in sound by moving the mic around, but by the time you
get about a foot or so away, things settle down and either you like
the sound of the banjo or you don't. The mic doesn't contribute a
whole lot to shaping the tone.

Just to be sure you don't start out at a disadvantage (not picking up
everthing worth picking up) I'd go for a reasonable small diaphragm
condenser mic, and keep away from anything that costs less than $150
or so, but no need to seek out a $1,000 mic until you know you're
ready. I'm only suggesting a minimum price because below that, there
seems to be a greater variation from mic to mic of the same model, so
your chances of the one YOU buy being a bit of a dud is a little
greater.

If you're ready to spend $1000, it might be worth while trying one of
the new ribbon mics just as something different, but in general I
wouldn't say it's the right mic for every job.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Dan Gellert wrote:

Anyway, I¹m looking for mic recommendations for recording my banjos-- the
two I use most are both fretless, one with steel strings and the other
strung with gut (and tuned about a 4th below the modern standard pitch). I
play in a very percussive ³clawhammer² or ³rapping² style, and I want that
percussive quality to predominate. These banjos don¹t ring or sparkle; they
thump, crackle, and pop!


Before you do anything, try an RE-55 or a 635A. Not much clang to them,
so I think they'll let a lot of the thump through. I think you can probably
do better with something like a 77DX, but at least try the EVs and see if
you're in the right ballpark.
--scott

Let me second the recommendation for the 635a... I used one a few months
ago out of sheer desperation and it was exactly the right microphone for
the project. Never would have thought of it though. The only catch is
that you need a decent sounding room... this particular recording took
place in the players large, two story family room while the family was
away. He stood at the corner formed by two rather overstuffed couches,
and the microphone was placed a little over a foot from where the neck
meets the body, pointed pretty much straight in.

We tried several other microphones, and several placements, but that was
the sound he wanted, and I liked it too. It wasn't quite what the player
actually hears (we tried the over the shoulder trick too), but it was
similar, maybe just a little "nicer".

I have no idea yet how it sat in the mix, it was his project, I was just
providing tools in trade for beers...

Bill

P Stamler wrote:

Ribbons might be a good choice, but they may actually be *too* mellow for this
instrument. See if you can borrow a Beyer M160 or M260. Since these are
hypercardioid, they have a BIG proximity effect which may make the bottom
muddy.

So it's important to keep that mic back a ways from the banjo. (Heck,
this is a good idea anyway, if only for safety.)

--
ha

Thanks to all for the ideas-- and compliments!

I purposely didn't mention a budget-- might as well hear what the "only a
Neumann is good enough" folks have to say on the subject.... See what the
ideal is, and then pare it down to reality.

Figured most of you would see the word "banjo" and right away have me
(correctly) pigeonholed in the "let's see how cheap I can do this" category.
(I have a S.P. B-1, and ordered a MC012 last week....)

Yeah, got to consider that the transient response depends a lot on the
preamp---what I have is a (don't laugh too loud) Behringer 2200. Would that
new Studio Projects pre (or something else in the $200/channel range) be
enough of an improvement to bother with? What about the next step up from
there?

thanks again

Dan

Dan Gellert wrote:

Thanks to all for the ideas-- and compliments!

You're welocme. You're also good. It's not my fault. Live with it. g

I purposely didn't mention a budget-- might as well hear what the "only a
Neumann is good enough" folks have to say on the subject.... See what the
ideal is, and then pare it down to reality.

Well, reality is your budget...

Figured most of you would see the word "banjo" and right away have me
(correctly) pigeonholed in the "let's see how cheap I can do this" category.
(I have a S.P. B-1, and ordered a MC012 last week....)

Are you getting the MC012 from the Sound Room, Taylor Johnson? They have
better QC, by far. http://www.oktava.com/

Yeah, got to consider that the transient response depends a lot on the
preamp---what I have is a (don't laugh too loud) Behringer 2200.

I'll just ignore that remark. No need to get all personal and stuff.

Would that
new Studio Projects pre (or something else in the $200/channel range) be
enough of an improvement to bother with? What about the next step up from
there?

If you are barely under two hundred a channel there is no point in not
saving for another few weeks and getting the RNP (Really Nice Preamp)
from FMR. Scoop at http://www.fmraudio.com. I think you'd be happy
with that, but what do I know? It's two channels for under $500. And it
would work with a nice ribbon mic. It's easy to say "Nothing but a
Neumann" and I do like lots of their mics. But I would personally reach
first for an M160.

--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

In article writes:

Figured most of you would see the word "banjo" and right away have me
(correctly) pigeonholed in the "let's see how cheap I can do this" category.
(I have a S.P. B-1, and ordered a MC012 last week....)

Those are actually very good choices. If you can't do it with one or
the other (or both) of those, you're looking for something that isn't
really there.

Would that
new Studio Projects pre (or something else in the $200/channel range) be
enough of an improvement to bother with? What about the next step up from
there?

Might be. The Studio Projects VT1 has some interesting old-timey
coloration to it. Most preamps don't really suck, and there are so
many different combinations with their small differences in sound that
it's impossible to predict what will work best in your situation. The
good thing is that most of this stuff is available from dealers who
will take it back graciously if it doesn't do what you had hoped, so
it doens't hurt to buy and try, then make your decision.

Since you're recording an instrument that isn't really loud, and you
want to at least experiment with getting back some distance from it,
you'll need a preamp that isn't shy on gain, and that's pretty quiet
when running at full gain. The first thing you should try when you get
a preamp to evaluate (and try it with your Behringer too) is to turn
the gain up full, play your banjo into your mic of choice, and see if
you can get a good recording level. Then listen to the playback of a
"null" recording (mic connected, but without playing) to see if the
hiss is objectionable when listening at a normal level. This will be a
limiting factor and if you can't use the preamp because of noise or
insufficient gain, you'd probably be best to try another, but while
you have it, play with mic position to see if something closer works.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

Dan Gellert wrote:
Thanks to all for the ideas-- and compliments!

I purposely didn't mention a budget-- might as well hear what the "only a
Neumann is good enough" folks have to say on the subject.... See what the
ideal is, and then pare it down to reality.

Figured most of you would see the word "banjo" and right away have me
(correctly) pigeonholed in the "let's see how cheap I can do this" category.
(I have a S.P. B-1, and ordered a MC012 last week....)

I still recommend the EV 635A. You can find one for fifty bucks used.
I think Chuck Levins in DC right now has a whole stack of them (and a
bunch of other similar EV omnis) in the blowout bins.

If you don't like it on this banjo, you'll find it useful on something else
and for the price everybody ought to have one.

Yeah, got to consider that the transient response depends a lot on the
preamp---what I have is a (don't laugh too loud) Behringer 2200. Would that
new Studio Projects pre (or something else in the $200/channel range) be
enough of an improvement to bother with? What about the next step up from
there?

You considered the RNP?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I agree with the consensus: the next step up worth bothering with is the RNP.
It is, however, a bit on the noisy side for use with ribbon microphones. Should
work like a champ with the MC012.

Peace,
Paul

In article , Dan Gellert
wrote:

Anyway, I¹m looking for mic recommendations for recording my banjos-- the
two I use most are both fretless, one with steel strings and the other
strung with gut (and tuned about a 4th below the modern standard pitch). I
play in a very percussive ³clawhammer² or ³rapping² style, and I want that
percussive quality to predominate. These banjos don¹t ring or sparkle; they
thump, crackle, and pop!



If you can borrow one, my fave banjo mic is a U87. If you've got a nice
room to record it in pop it into omni. Put it in the right place -
start about 3' away and move it (& change pickup patterns) til you find
it.

I'll plug into something else prob past your budget, an Amek 9098.
Spent a day this week recording banjo. I like 'em!



David Correia
Celebration Sound
Warren, Rhode Island


www.CelebrationSound.com

Dan Gellert wrote:
First of all, many thanks from this lurker for the loads of
information and
entertainment I find on this NG...!

Second, hello to Mike Rivers-- I remember meeting you maybe 20-25
years ago
when you did sound at a park in Maryland for me, Reed Martin, and a
bunch of
guys from Indiana! I know that you, at least, are well aware that
there are
a lot of instruments that go by the name =B3banjo=B2, but don=B9t (and
aren=B9t
supposed to) sound anything like a Mastertone or a Tubaphone!

Anyway, I=B9m looking for mic recommendations for recording my
banjos-- the
two I use most are both fretless, one with steel strings and the
other
strung with gut (and tuned about a 4th below the modern standard
pitch). I
play in a very percussive =B3clawhammer=B2 or =B3rapping=B2 style, and I
want that
percussive quality to predominate. These banjos don=B9t ring or
sparkle; they
thump, crackle, and pop!

To take a tourist=B9s stab at expressing myself in the local idiom, I
think
what I=B9m looking for is good transient response and midrange
definition, and
an un-hyped top end.... (do I really understand what I just said?)


T.I.A.

Dan

I just finished a record with a guy who played a nylon string fretless
banjo, mainly solo or with some other acoustic instruments.

I searched here and I found several people recommending an EV RE-20.
The first day we tried the EV, a Royer R-121 and a Neumann KM-184. The
EV captured the sound of the instrument in a much more pleasing way
than the others. It was placed pointing at the bridge, about 12-18
inches off the head. We used a Great River MP-1NV pre, set at the
cleaner end of the spectrum.

For a few songs, we also used the KM-184 about a foot off the neck, at
the nut.

Good Luck,

Mark Gifford

Dan Gellert wrote:
First of all, many thanks from this lurker for the loads of
information and
entertainment I find on this NG...!

Second, hello to Mike Rivers-- I remember meeting you maybe 20-25
years ago
when you did sound at a park in Maryland for me, Reed Martin, and a
bunch of
guys from Indiana! I know that you, at least, are well aware that
there are
a lot of instruments that go by the name =B3banjo=B2, but don=B9t (and
aren=B9t
supposed to) sound anything like a Mastertone or a Tubaphone!

Anyway, I=B9m looking for mic recommendations for recording my
banjos-- the
two I use most are both fretless, one with steel strings and the
other
strung with gut (and tuned about a 4th below the modern standard
pitch). I
play in a very percussive =B3clawhammer=B2 or =B3rapping=B2 style, and I
want that
percussive quality to predominate. These banjos don=B9t ring or
sparkle; they
thump, crackle, and pop!

To take a tourist=B9s stab at expressing myself in the local idiom, I
think
what I=B9m looking for is good transient response and midrange
definition, and
an un-hyped top end.... (do I really understand what I just said?)


T.I.A.

Dan

I just finished a record with a guy who played a nylon string fretless
banjo, mainly solo or with some other acoustic instruments.

I searched here and I found several people recommending an EV RE-20.
The first day we tried the EV, a Royer R-121 and a Neumann KM-184. The
EV captured the sound of the instrument in a much more pleasing way
than the others. It was placed pointing at the bridge, about 12-18
inches off the head. We used a Great River MP-1NV pre, set at the
cleaner end of the spectrum.

For a few songs, we also used the KM-184 about a foot off the neck, at
the nut.

Good Luck,

Mark Gifford

"Mark Gifford" wrote in message
oups.com...

Dan Gellert wrote:
First of all, many thanks from this lurker for the loads of
information and
entertainment I find on this NG...!

Second, hello to Mike Rivers-- I remember meeting you maybe 20-25
years ago
when you did sound at a park in Maryland for me, Reed Martin, and a
bunch of
guys from Indiana! I know that you, at least, are well aware that
there are
a lot of instruments that go by the name ³banjo², but don¹t (and
aren¹t
supposed to) sound anything like a Mastertone or a Tubaphone!

Anyway, I¹m looking for mic recommendations for recording my
banjos-- the
two I use most are both fretless, one with steel strings and the
other
strung with gut (and tuned about a 4th below the modern standard
pitch). I
play in a very percussive ³clawhammer² or ³rapping² style, and I
want that
percussive quality to predominate. These banjos don¹t ring or
sparkle; they
thump, crackle, and pop!

To take a tourist¹s stab at expressing myself in the local idiom, I
think
what I¹m looking for is good transient response and midrange
definition, and
an un-hyped top end.... (do I really understand what I just said?)


T.I.A.

Dan

I just finished a record with a guy who played a nylon string fretless
banjo, mainly solo or with some other acoustic instruments.

I searched here and I found several people recommending an EV RE-20.
The first day we tried the EV, a Royer R-121 and a Neumann KM-184. The
EV captured the sound of the instrument in a much more pleasing way
than the others. It was placed pointing at the bridge, about 12-18
inches off the head. We used a Great River MP-1NV pre, set at the
cleaner end of the spectrum.

For a few songs, we also used the KM-184 about a foot off the neck, at
the nut.

Another possibility might be a ribbon mike. On plunkier banjos, I've had
good luck with a Beyer M260; it has a pretty strong proximity effect, so you
might need to roll the bass off a little, particularly since the banjo is
tuned down.

Peace,
Paul

"Mark Gifford" wrote in message
oups.com...

Dan Gellert wrote:
First of all, many thanks from this lurker for the loads of
information and
entertainment I find on this NG...!

Second, hello to Mike Rivers-- I remember meeting you maybe 20-25
years ago
when you did sound at a park in Maryland for me, Reed Martin, and a
bunch of
guys from Indiana! I know that you, at least, are well aware that
there are
a lot of instruments that go by the name ³banjo², but don¹t (and
aren¹t
supposed to) sound anything like a Mastertone or a Tubaphone!

Anyway, I¹m looking for mic recommendations for recording my
banjos-- the
two I use most are both fretless, one with steel strings and the
other
strung with gut (and tuned about a 4th below the modern standard
pitch). I
play in a very percussive ³clawhammer² or ³rapping² style, and I
want that
percussive quality to predominate. These banjos don¹t ring or
sparkle; they
thump, crackle, and pop!

To take a tourist¹s stab at expressing myself in the local idiom, I
think
what I¹m looking for is good transient response and midrange
definition, and
an un-hyped top end.... (do I really understand what I just said?)


T.I.A.

Dan

I just finished a record with a guy who played a nylon string fretless
banjo, mainly solo or with some other acoustic instruments.

I searched here and I found several people recommending an EV RE-20.
The first day we tried the EV, a Royer R-121 and a Neumann KM-184. The
EV captured the sound of the instrument in a much more pleasing way
than the others. It was placed pointing at the bridge, about 12-18
inches off the head. We used a Great River MP-1NV pre, set at the
cleaner end of the spectrum.

For a few songs, we also used the KM-184 about a foot off the neck, at
the nut.

Another possibility might be a ribbon mike. On plunkier banjos, I've had
good luck with a Beyer M260; it has a pretty strong proximity effect, so you
might need to roll the bass off a little, particularly since the banjo is
tuned down.

Peace,
Paul

Dan Gellert wrote:
First of all, many thanks from this lurker for the loads of
information and
entertainment I find on this NG...!

Hey Dan, could you write me off-list? I have a personal question I want to
ask you -- by coincidence, it just came up tonight.

Peace,
Paul

Dan Gellert wrote:
First of all, many thanks from this lurker for the loads of
information and
entertainment I find on this NG...!

Hey Dan, could you write me off-list? I have a personal question I want to
ask you -- by coincidence, it just came up tonight.

Peace,
Paul

Dan Gellert wrote:

First of all, many thanks from this lurker for the loads of
information and entertainment I find on this NG...!

Second, hello to Mike Rivers--

Hi, Dan -

I've seen your posts here occasionally and have written to you mostly
just to say hello but never saw a response. In fact, your intitial
post on banjo mics didn't show up. I only saw it quoted in Mark's
response.

I concur that dynamic or ribbon mics are more appropriate for plunky
banjos. A few months ago I recorded a few banjo-like African
instruments for a friend of Bob Carlin's and found that I got the best
results overall with my Beyer M260 modified by Stephen Sank with an
RCA 77DX ribbon. But I also got a pretty good sound with a Neumann
U87, but found that a KM84 was too present for all but the smallest
and brightest instrument of the lot.

I see that Mike Holmes has finaly caught you. Let's do a workshop on
recording banjo at Banjo Camp. I usually do something about recording
there. I'll bring my mics and you bring yours.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Dan Gellert wrote:

First of all, many thanks from this lurker for the loads of
information and entertainment I find on this NG...!

Second, hello to Mike Rivers--

Hi, Dan -

I've seen your posts here occasionally and have written to you mostly
just to say hello but never saw a response. In fact, your intitial
post on banjo mics didn't show up. I only saw it quoted in Mark's
response.

I concur that dynamic or ribbon mics are more appropriate for plunky
banjos. A few months ago I recorded a few banjo-like African
instruments for a friend of Bob Carlin's and found that I got the best
results overall with my Beyer M260 modified by Stephen Sank with an
RCA 77DX ribbon. But I also got a pretty good sound with a Neumann
U87, but found that a KM84 was too present for all but the smallest
and brightest instrument of the lot.

I see that Mike Holmes has finaly caught you. Let's do a workshop on
recording banjo at Banjo Camp. I usually do something about recording
there. I'll bring my mics and you bring yours.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo