does anyone could tell and explain why the american frequency for
power supply is 60hz and not 50hz as european is????????
thaks guys
audiomix

"Audiomix" wrote in message
om...
does anyone could tell and explain why the american frequency for
power supply is 60hz and not 50hz as european is????????
thaks guys
audiomix

here's one version
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains

"Audiomix" wrote in message
om...
does anyone could tell and explain why the american frequency for
power supply is 60hz and not 50hz as european is????????
thaks guys
audiomix

here's one version
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains

Audiomix wrote:
does anyone could tell and explain why the american frequency for
power supply is 60hz and not 50hz as european is????????

Well, in some places, our power used to be 25 Hz.

Higher frequencies give you lower transmission losses and smaller
transformers. That's why 400 Hz is used in airplanes, because it
reduces the weight of transformers substantially.

Lower frequencies make it much easier to build large motors efficiently.
That's why 25 Hz was originally used at Niagra Falls.

Anyway, we were first. We had AC power distribution before you guys did.
So you can ask why Seimens and AEG originally picked 50 Hz instead of the
more standard 60 Hz that Westinghouse used.

These days, when power line frequency doesn't make much of a difference
since few things use synchronous motors any more and most electronics use
cheap switching supplies, it's not a big deal.

What _is_ a big deal is the 120V/240V difference. I am always amazed when
I go to Europe to see how tiny all the wiring is. It's really lovely,
but takes a few days to get used to.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

TimPerry wrote:

"Audiomix" wrote in message
om...

does anyone could tell and explain why the american frequency for
power supply is 60hz and not 50hz as european is????????
thaks guys
audiomix


here's one version
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains

Note that Saudi Arabia is the only country "over there" with
the U.S. system. Odd, that. :-)


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

"Audiomix" wrote in message
om...
does anyone could tell and explain why the american frequency for
power supply is 60hz and not 50hz as european is????????


European nations avoided compatibility with US standards so that European
suppliers could compete with US suppliers when rebuilding after the second
world war.


--
Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN
Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control
Over 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined!
615.385.8051 http://www.hyperback.com

On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 01:43:26 GMT, "Bob Olhsson"
wrote:

European nations avoided compatibility with US standards so that European
suppliers could compete with US suppliers when rebuilding after the second
world war.

Do you have evidence that this was a conscious decision?

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

What suprises me is, If you follow Wikiedia the link to Nikola Tesla,
inventor of 3 phase generator, you'll see they're describing his
nationality as Vlach-American, while it's clear guy was born in Croatia,
while his father was a Priest of Serbian Orthodox Church. In Tesla's own
words (as presented in other places): "I'm prowd of both, my Croatian
homeland and my Serbian origin."

"Bob Olhsson" wrote in message

"Audiomix" wrote in message
om...
does anyone could tell and explain why the american frequency for
power supply is 60hz and not 50hz as european is????????

European nations avoided compatibility with US standards so that
European suppliers could compete with US suppliers when rebuilding
after the second world war.

Odd that they picked a standard that cost them money, right at a time when
resources were so tight.

Well, at least most of them got the line voltage part right, even if they
blew the line frequency part.

They saved copper and blew the iron part of the equation. Maybe they had a
lot of scrap iron at their disposal...

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message

Audiomix wrote:
does anyone could tell and explain why the american frequency for
power supply is 60hz and not 50hz as european is????????

Well, in some places, our power used to be 25 Hz.

And in other places in my personal experience, DC.

Higher frequencies give you lower transmission losses and smaller
transformers. That's why 400 Hz is used in airplanes, because it
reduces the weight of transformers substantially.

To say the least. Motors, too. My ca.1960s radars had a several horsepower
cooling pump that ran on 416v/400 Hz/3 phase. I could easily pick it up with
one hand.

Lower frequencies make it much easier to build large motors
efficiently.

Well, simple low-speed motors.

That's why 25 Hz was originally used at Niagra Falls.

Ironically, we do low-speed motors these days with lots of poles.

Anyway, we were first. We had AC power distribution before you guys
did.

Ulitmately, this was due to raw unfettered profiteering monopolistic
capitalism in the US, political unrest in Europe, and a liberal US
immigration policy.

So you can ask why Seimens and AEG originally picked 50 Hz
instead of the more standard 60 Hz that Westinghouse used.

Someone said they did it to exclude imports from the US. Note, going 10 Hz
higher wouldn't be as effective at providing an exclusive market, as going
10 Hz lower was.

These days, when power line frequency doesn't make much of a
difference since few things use synchronous motors any more and most
electronics use cheap switching supplies, it's not a big deal.

Agreed. Last night I was looking at a new washing machine that used a low
speed DC motor with no mechanical transmission. The price was not
prohibitive, all things considered. Consider the price-performance of motor
controls in 1950, as compared to 2004. Most of the product I saw at Lowes
still used 1950s technology.

What _is_ a big deal is the 120V/240V difference. I am always amazed
when I go to Europe to see how tiny all the wiring is. It's really
lovely, but takes a few days to get used to.

IME most people dance a lot more energetically (but perhaps for a shorter
time) upon unintended application of 240V 50 Hz as compared to 120V 60 Hz.
For a real thrill, try 416V 400 Hz. But then, nothing beats the baseball-bat
like wallop of 300 VDC. Been there, done that.

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message

Audiomix wrote:
does anyone could tell and explain why the american frequency for
power supply is 60hz and not 50hz as european is????????

Well, in some places, our power used to be 25 Hz.

And in other places in my personal experience, DC.

NYC had seperate DC mains as late as 1990 or so. Mostly used by elevators,
although there were a few pipe organs out there with DC blowers. Gabe Weiner
was always complaining here about going into churches and finding DC power
in places.

Higher frequencies give you lower transmission losses and smaller
transformers. That's why 400 Hz is used in airplanes, because it
reduces the weight of transformers substantially.

To say the least. Motors, too. My ca.1960s radars had a several horsepower
cooling pump that ran on 416v/400 Hz/3 phase. I could easily pick it up with
one hand.

Yes, but that was running at very high speeds. It's actually not easy at all
to build efficient 400 Hz motors in part because you either need a whole lot
of poles, or an armature that turns really, really fast. Which is why
universal motors still hang on in some aircraft applications.

Anyway, we were first. We had AC power distribution before you guys
did.

Ulitmately, this was due to raw unfettered profiteering monopolistic
capitalism in the US, political unrest in Europe, and a liberal US
immigration policy.

For the most part, yes. There was a huge brain drain at the time, with
guys like Steinmetz and Tesla leaving Europe and going to work for GE
and Westinghouse. (Tesla is sort of a weird example in part because of
the huge mythos built up over him... I don't think he really did much to
advance the technology of power distribution but he certainly did a lot
to popularize it. On the other hand, Steinmetz laid the mathematical
foundations that Tesla and Edison never did manage to understand, and
was probably the first to realize that harmonic distortion variances
between generators were a major source of the eddy current problems that
had plagued early AC experimenters).

These days, when power line frequency doesn't make much of a
difference since few things use synchronous motors any more and most
electronics use cheap switching supplies, it's not a big deal.

Agreed. Last night I was looking at a new washing machine that used a low
speed DC motor with no mechanical transmission. The price was not
prohibitive, all things considered. Consider the price-performance of motor
controls in 1950, as compared to 2004. Most of the product I saw at Lowes
still used 1950s technology.

will be interesting to see how these things survive. The mechanical
transmission is inherently unreliable due to wear, like all other mechanical
devices. But, unlike the electronic controls, it is usually repairable when
it breaks, with minimal skill required.

Until recently I had a 1955 Kenmore dryer. The motor bearings had probably
been replaced half a dozen times since it was new, but it was running just
fine. The only reason I replaced it is that I finally got gas piped in.
Mechanical stuff requires maintenance, and a lot of people seem to be afraid
of that, but it's usually not maintenance that requires terribly specialized
skill.

What _is_ a big deal is the 120V/240V difference. I am always amazed
when I go to Europe to see how tiny all the wiring is. It's really
lovely, but takes a few days to get used to.

IME most people dance a lot more energetically (but perhaps for a shorter
time) upon unintended application of 240V 50 Hz as compared to 120V 60 Hz.
For a real thrill, try 416V 400 Hz. But then, nothing beats the baseball-bat
like wallop of 300 VDC. Been there, done that.

I think I will pass.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Bob Olhsson" wrote in message

"Audiomix" wrote in message
om...
does anyone could tell and explain why the american frequency for
power supply is 60hz and not 50hz as european is????????

European nations avoided compatibility with US standards so that
European suppliers could compete with US suppliers when rebuilding
after the second world war.

Odd that they picked a standard that cost them money, right at a time when
resources were so tight.

It seems to me that the decisions about European standards were made before
World War II.

Peace,
Paul

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

Anyway, we were first. We had AC power distribution before you guys
did.

Ulitmately, this was due to raw unfettered profiteering monopolistic
capitalism in the US, political unrest in Europe, and a liberal US
immigration policy.

That, and the fact that George Westinghouse was here, as was Nicola Tesla --
wait, that's the immigration policy.

Peace,
Paul

Arny Krueger wrote:

IME most people dance a lot more energetically (but perhaps for a
shorter time) upon unintended application of 240V 50 Hz as compared
to 120V 60 Hz. For a real thrill, try 416V 400 Hz. But then, nothing
beats the baseball-bat like wallop of 300 VDC. Been there, done that.




Tesla used 10,000-Hz at a few hundred thousand volts. Higher
frequency than your nerves can feel, and current so low you can safely
include humans in your lighting circuit. He used several reporters,
including Samuel Clemens, as part of a demonstration to repudiate
Edison's claims that AC was more dangerous than DC.

"S O'Neill" wrote in message


Arny Krueger wrote:

IME most people dance a lot more energetically (but perhaps for a
shorter time) upon unintended application of 240V 50 Hz as compared
to 120V 60 Hz. For a real thrill, try 416V 400 Hz. But then, nothing
beats the baseball-bat like wallop of 300 VDC. Been there, done that.

Tesla used 10,000-Hz at a few hundred thousand volts.

Been there, done that too.

Higher frequency than your nerves can feel, and current so low you can
safely
include humans in your lighting circuit. He used several reporters,
including Samuel Clemens, as part of a demonstration to repudiate
Edison's claims that AC was more dangerous than DC.

It doesn't seem to take a lot of RF current to start having problems with
burning flesh.

Arny Krueger wrote:

Higher frequency than your nerves can feel, and current so low you can
safely
include humans in your lighting circuit. He used several reporters,
including Samuel Clemens, as part of a demonstration to repudiate
Edison's claims that AC was more dangerous than DC.

It doesn't seem to take a lot of RF current to start having problems with
burning flesh.

The thing about RF is that it all travels on the surface of the conductor.
So you get all these really bad-looking surface burns but no real deep tissue
damage. Light RF burns just look like a sunburn, but when they get bad you
can get some severe skin damage. Doctors who are used to seeing deep tissue
electrical damage usually aren't familiar with this stuff and assume the damage
is worse than it really is. (With electrical injuries, there is usually very
heavy tissue damage and it can sometimes take a while to find it all).
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Arny Krueger wrote:

IME most people dance a lot more energetically (but perhaps for a shorter
time) upon unintended application of 240V 50 Hz as compared to 120V 60 Hz.
For a real thrill, try 416V 400 Hz. But then, nothing beats the baseball-bat
like wallop of 300 VDC. Been there, done that.



Scott Dorsey wrote:

I think I will pass.
--scott


That's a very real possibility with 300V going through you.

ulysses

Arny Krueger wrote:

Anyway, we were first. We had AC power distribution before you guys
did.


Ulitmately, this was due to raw unfettered profiteering monopolistic
capitalism in the US, political unrest in Europe, and a liberal US
immigration policy.

What a *great* plug for raw unfettered profiteering
monopolistic capitalism! :-)


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message


These days, when power line frequency doesn't make much of a
difference since few things use synchronous motors any more and most
electronics use cheap switching supplies, it's not a big deal.

Agreed. Last night I was looking at a new washing machine that used a low
speed DC motor with no mechanical transmission. The price was not
prohibitive, all things considered. Consider the price-performance of motor
controls in 1950, as compared to 2004. Most of the product I saw at Lowes
still used 1950s technology.


will be interesting to see how these things survive. The mechanical
transmission is inherently unreliable due to wear, like all other mechanical
devices. But, unlike the electronic controls, it is usually repairable when
it breaks, with minimal skill required.

Until recently I had a 1955 Kenmore dryer. The motor bearings had probably
been replaced half a dozen times since it was new, but it was running just
fine. The only reason I replaced it is that I finally got gas piped in.
Mechanical stuff requires maintenance, and a lot of people seem to be afraid
of that, but it's usually not maintenance that requires terribly specialized
skill.

Staber Industries in Ohio has been rebuilding commercial washer transmissions for decades. A few years ago, they decided to desig a better machine. It uses a variable speed DC motor and a very interesting tub design http://staber.com/Manufacturing.htm

"Justin Ulysses Morse" wrote in message
m...
Arny Krueger wrote:

IME most people dance a lot more energetically (but perhaps for a
shorter
time) upon unintended application of 240V 50 Hz as compared to 120V 60
Hz.
For a real thrill, try 416V 400 Hz. But then, nothing beats the
baseball-bat
like wallop of 300 VDC. Been there, done that.

Scott Dorsey wrote:

I think I will pass.
--scott

That's a very real possibility with 300V going through you.

No kidding. I had the experience once, passed from my fingertip to a
microphone at my lip, and it knocked me across the room and flat on my ass.
If I did it now, with my 30-years-older heart muscle, it might easily take
me out for good.

Peace,
Paul

"Paul Stamler"...


That's a very real possibility with 300V going through you.

No kidding. I had the experience once, passed from my fingertip to a
microphone at my lip, and it knocked me across the room and flat on my
ass.
If I did it now, with my 30-years-older heart muscle, it might easily take
me out for good.



** Exactly that happened to John Lennon on stage in the early 60s - he
was out cold for a minute or two while rest of the Beatles kept on playing
not realising what had happened.

His Vox AC 30 guitar amp developed a ( common ) fault where the plastic
input jack ground wire breaks and allows the voltage on the guitar metalwork
to rise to the internal positive DC rail of some 300 volts.





........... Phil

(Audiomix) wrote in message . com...
does anyone could tell and explain why the american frequency for
power supply is 60hz and not 50hz as european is????????
thaks guys
audiomix

The higher frequency 400 Hz ac would reduce distribution costs but
would have to travel in shielded wire.
rectified 400 Hz will generate 800 Hz, which is a very 'loud'
frequency hearing--wise.
Europeans have always used the number 10 as the standard (metric.
etc), perhaps given that math is decimal based 99% of the time and
there is the concern of creating standards whereby the numbers are
easy to deal with.
100 Hz is too high, as it would creep in radio sets etc.
100/2=50Hz
Imperial measures do not have a common denominator (pounds,
inches,gallons etc.)
just a guess.

My impression was in the US the standard was based in part on our system
of time. I guess it was easier to create clock motors (synchronous?) at
that frequency.

This in turn was the reason b/w NTSC television ran at 60 fields/sec, to
minimize hum distortion (harder to filter back then)

maxdm wrote:
(Audiomix) wrote in message . com...

does anyone could tell and explain why the american frequency for
power supply is 60hz and not 50hz as european is????????
thaks guys
audiomix


The higher frequency 400 Hz ac would reduce distribution costs but
would have to travel in shielded wire.
rectified 400 Hz will generate 800 Hz, which is a very 'loud'
frequency hearing--wise.
Europeans have always used the number 10 as the standard (metric.
etc), perhaps given that math is decimal based 99% of the time and
there is the concern of creating standards whereby the numbers are
easy to deal with.
100 Hz is too high, as it would creep in radio sets etc.
100/2=50Hz
Imperial measures do not have a common denominator (pounds,
inches,gallons etc.)
just a guess.

"maxdm" wrote in message
om

(Audiomix) wrote in message
. com...

does anyone could tell and explain why the american frequency for
power supply is 60hz and not 50hz as european is????????
thaks guys
audiomix

The higher frequency 400 Hz ac would reduce distribution costs but
would have to travel in shielded wire.
rectified 400 Hz will generate 800 Hz, which is a very 'loud'
frequency hearing--wise.

You didn't mention that full-wave rectified 400 Hz 3 phase has its primary
ripple frequency at 2400 Hz. That's clearly in the ear's sensitivity sweet
spot. I spent three years maintaining Doppler radars (which were listened to
in use at the time) that ran off 400 Hz 3 phase. The sound of 400 Hz 3 phase
ripple is probably permanently imprinted on my brain.

These days a SOTA long-distance power distribution system uses DC. You can
pump about twice as many watts on the same conductors and insulators with
DC, as AC at *any* frequency.

Arny Krueger wrote:

These days a SOTA long-distance power distribution system uses DC. You can
pump about twice as many watts on the same conductors and insulators with
DC, as AC at *any* frequency.



Is that really the "state of the art"? Tesla did it without wires at
all; we've gone backwards in that respect. Of course, he didn't have to
deal with environmental impact reports.

"S O'Neill" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:

These days a SOTA long-distance power distribution system uses DC.
You can pump about twice as many watts on the same conductors and
insulators with DC, as AC at *any* frequency.

Is that really the "state of the art"?

AFAIK.

BTW, it works! ;-)

Tesla did it without wires at
all; we've gone backwards in that respect.

I understand Tesla's wireless methodology had a few practical draw backs,
like how to meter individual power usage, and how to run motors off of KHz
AC.

Of course, he didn't have to deal with environmental impact reports.

At the time, I don't think they were very knowledgeable about the health
implications of radiation of *any* kind, RF, Radioactivity, etc.

Greg Taylor wrote:

My impression was in the US the standard was based in part on our system
of time. I guess it was easier to create clock motors (synchronous?) at
that frequency.

Yes, but the Europeans also have 60-second minutes and 60-minute hours,
so that theory doesn't hold water for me.

Then again, my metaphor mixes water and electricity, which we know
don't.

--
- rick http://www.cfcl.com/~rick/
Rick Auricchio Macs Only: Macintosh support
I acknowledge the existence of a higher power, and have therefore installed
surge suppressors.

S O'Neill wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:

Tesla used 10,000-Hz at a few hundred thousand volts. Higher
frequency than your nerves can feel, and current so low you can safely
include humans in your lighting circuit. He used several reporters,
including Samuel Clemens, as part of a demonstration to repudiate
Edison's claims that AC was more dangerous than DC.

I seem to remember reading that Edison, being the marketing genious he was,
attempted to demonstrate that AC was dangerous by convincing the authorities
to execute a criminal using AC. Problem was whatever values they used
failed to kill the prisoner. (Apparently they had electrocuted a rabbit
or something and tried to extrapolate the values to a grown man).

Rob R.