Hi all, I would like some advice about the use of click tracks in live
audio.

I am working with a band that is starting to introduce a lot of
sampled/pre-recorded material into their live music. Because many of the
sampled arrangements are rather complex and don't fall conveniently at the
beginning or end of a song the band will be playing along with a
sequencer/sampler that will be playing back the samples as the song plays,
necessitating a click track (many of the samples won't start until later on
in a partiocular song so the band will have to be right on tempo, and at the
same place in the song as the sequencer playing the samples, etc.).

Unfortunately I do not know the first thing about using a click track live,
so I was wondering if some of you might shed some light on this or point me
to some documentation. One point: the band uses in-ear monitors exclusively
so hearing the click through the stage monitors is a non-issue.

Does typically only the drummer hear the click track, and then everyone
follows him/her? What is most commonly used to generate the click track and
where is it connected in the signal chain? A sequencer application running
on a computer via MIDI, like the metronome in Cubase/Nuendo, etc? A
standalone piece of hardware dedicated to this purpose? Any real-world
application examples for bands that use samples a lot in their live
performances that you can share (Peter Gabriel, for exmple)?

TIA,
-Ben

"Ben Hanson" wrote in message
...
Hi all, I would like some advice about the use of click tracks in live
audio.

I am working with a band that is starting to introduce a lot of
sampled/pre-recorded material into their live music. Because many of the
sampled arrangements are rather complex and don't fall conveniently at the
beginning or end of a song the band will be playing along with a
sequencer/sampler that will be playing back the samples as the song plays,
necessitating a click track (many of the samples won't start until later
on
in a partiocular song so the band will have to be right on tempo, and at
the
same place in the song as the sequencer playing the samples, etc.).

Unfortunately I do not know the first thing about using a click track
live,
so I was wondering if some of you might shed some light on this or point
me
to some documentation. One point: the band uses in-ear monitors
exclusively
so hearing the click through the stage monitors is a non-issue.

Does typically only the drummer hear the click track, and then everyone
follows him/her? What is most commonly used to generate the click track
and
where is it connected in the signal chain? A sequencer application
running
on a computer via MIDI, like the metronome in Cubase/Nuendo, etc? A
standalone piece of hardware dedicated to this purpose? Any real-world
application examples for bands that use samples a lot in their live
performances that you can share (Peter Gabriel, for exmple)?

TIA,
-Ben



http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug0...b069ea 75d5ce

"Ben Hanson" wrote in message
...
Hi all, I would like some advice about the use of click tracks in live
audio.

I am working with a band that is starting to introduce a lot of
sampled/pre-recorded material into their live music. Because many of the
sampled arrangements are rather complex and don't fall conveniently at the
beginning or end of a song the band will be playing along with a
sequencer/sampler that will be playing back the samples as the song plays,
necessitating a click track (many of the samples won't start until later
on
in a partiocular song so the band will have to be right on tempo, and at
the
same place in the song as the sequencer playing the samples, etc.).

Unfortunately I do not know the first thing about using a click track
live,
so I was wondering if some of you might shed some light on this or point
me
to some documentation. One point: the band uses in-ear monitors
exclusively
so hearing the click through the stage monitors is a non-issue.

Does typically only the drummer hear the click track, and then everyone
follows him/her? What is most commonly used to generate the click track
and
where is it connected in the signal chain? A sequencer application
running
on a computer via MIDI, like the metronome in Cubase/Nuendo, etc? A
standalone piece of hardware dedicated to this purpose? Any real-world
application examples for bands that use samples a lot in their live
performances that you can share (Peter Gabriel, for exmple)?

TIA,
-Ben



http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug0...b069ea 75d5ce

What is most commonly used to generate the click track and
where is it connected in the signal chain?

It should be an audio track on whatever playback format you settle on.

A sequencer application running
on a computer via MIDI, like the metronome in Cubase/Nuendo, etc?

If you do use the metronome in a sequencer, record its outptut to an audio
track running along with the samples.

Any real-world
application examples for bands that use samples a lot in their live
performances that you can share (Peter Gabriel, for exmple)?


In my work, the Kronos Quartet does a lot of playback, both with & without
click tracks. We use either MiniDisc or Max running on a Mac PowerBook through
a MOTU 828. In either case the click is always an audio track, not the internal
metronome in a sequencer. Less to screw up that way.



Scott Fraser

What is most commonly used to generate the click track and
where is it connected in the signal chain?

It should be an audio track on whatever playback format you settle on.

A sequencer application running
on a computer via MIDI, like the metronome in Cubase/Nuendo, etc?

If you do use the metronome in a sequencer, record its outptut to an audio
track running along with the samples.

Any real-world
application examples for bands that use samples a lot in their live
performances that you can share (Peter Gabriel, for exmple)?


In my work, the Kronos Quartet does a lot of playback, both with & without
click tracks. We use either MiniDisc or Max running on a Mac PowerBook through
a MOTU 828. In either case the click is always an audio track, not the internal
metronome in a sequencer. Less to screw up that way.



Scott Fraser

Hi all
Been lurking here for a while and can't tell you how much Ive
learned... Thanks a lot everyone..!

Ben, I've played a few gigs where weve had lots of samples/used a
click, we've done it different ways, so I've just got a couple of
things to add:

Every time we did it, the drummer only had the click (we felt we
wanted the least click necessary). Bare (bear?!) in mind kit player
could easily find it tough playing to the click if the band is
changing tempo or if he/she (and everyone else) is not used to it -
might need more rehearsal time.

One band (even though the tunes were up to 60% samples) we just
chopped up/recycled the samples. Longer less rhythmical samples were
fine anyway, shorter samples were recycled + played by someone 16th
note (or whatever) at a time. We used an Akai CD3000XL (I think) and a
zip drive. This worked great - we didn't need a click at all.

I've used a laptop (g4 powerbook) running logic to generate a click,
but the audio/minidisc approach above is way way better. I have also
tried ditching the samples and running a couple of strips of audio out
of logic/powerbook motu 828 and a click for the drummer only. We did
this at a well known festival here in England. The guy responsible for
controlling the laptop throughout the set only closed the arrange page
instead of the song file each time. The laptop got about 3/4 of the
way through the set before crashing... Alternate version of that tune
that night!

If I remember right (I/he may be wrong...), a friend who was involved
in a recent Peter Gabriel tour told me they had logic running a click
(possibly audio too) and each band member had a screen with a big
transport bar showing song position in bars/beats etc. There is no way
Peter Gabriels musicians need that: got to be for show only.
(Sorry for the long post)
Regards
Andy

Hi all
Been lurking here for a while and can't tell you how much Ive
learned... Thanks a lot everyone..!

Ben, I've played a few gigs where weve had lots of samples/used a
click, we've done it different ways, so I've just got a couple of
things to add:

Every time we did it, the drummer only had the click (we felt we
wanted the least click necessary). Bare (bear?!) in mind kit player
could easily find it tough playing to the click if the band is
changing tempo or if he/she (and everyone else) is not used to it -
might need more rehearsal time.

One band (even though the tunes were up to 60% samples) we just
chopped up/recycled the samples. Longer less rhythmical samples were
fine anyway, shorter samples were recycled + played by someone 16th
note (or whatever) at a time. We used an Akai CD3000XL (I think) and a
zip drive. This worked great - we didn't need a click at all.

I've used a laptop (g4 powerbook) running logic to generate a click,
but the audio/minidisc approach above is way way better. I have also
tried ditching the samples and running a couple of strips of audio out
of logic/powerbook motu 828 and a click for the drummer only. We did
this at a well known festival here in England. The guy responsible for
controlling the laptop throughout the set only closed the arrange page
instead of the song file each time. The laptop got about 3/4 of the
way through the set before crashing... Alternate version of that tune
that night!

If I remember right (I/he may be wrong...), a friend who was involved
in a recent Peter Gabriel tour told me they had logic running a click
(possibly audio too) and each band member had a screen with a big
transport bar showing song position in bars/beats etc. There is no way
Peter Gabriels musicians need that: got to be for show only.
(Sorry for the long post)
Regards
Andy

I'm an AE, touring about half the time, & some of my bands use clicks.
First, I can't overstate the importance of rehearsing a lot with a
click, especially before recording, but also before your dates.
Many bands find that a cowbell-on-the-downbeat approach to be less
than vibey, & use shakers on the offbeat or arpeggios as timekeepers.
Many bands also find that the drummer is really the only one who needs
the click, & leave the control over it back on the riser. Often, if
the drummer uses cans, or in ear monitors (IEMs), no one else need to
hear the click.
My favourite click story is the band Manitoba, who have double drum
kits and guitar live, and play to a DVD with a stereo mix of bass &
vocals for me at the board, visuals behind them onstage, and a click
on one of the other audio tracks from the DVD to a little headphone
mixer for the drummers. Seems to work well for them.
Cheers,
Nick

I'm an AE, touring about half the time, & some of my bands use clicks.
First, I can't overstate the importance of rehearsing a lot with a
click, especially before recording, but also before your dates.
Many bands find that a cowbell-on-the-downbeat approach to be less
than vibey, & use shakers on the offbeat or arpeggios as timekeepers.
Many bands also find that the drummer is really the only one who needs
the click, & leave the control over it back on the riser. Often, if
the drummer uses cans, or in ear monitors (IEMs), no one else need to
hear the click.
My favourite click story is the band Manitoba, who have double drum
kits and guitar live, and play to a DVD with a stereo mix of bass &
vocals for me at the board, visuals behind them onstage, and a click
on one of the other audio tracks from the DVD to a little headphone
mixer for the drummers. Seems to work well for them.
Cheers,
Nick

snip
In my work, the Kronos Quartet does a lot of playback, both with & without
click tracks.
snip

LOOOOVE Kronos Quartet! Getting paid to listen live night after night
is a sweet gig!

snip
In my work, the Kronos Quartet does a lot of playback, both with & without
click tracks.
snip

LOOOOVE Kronos Quartet! Getting paid to listen live night after night
is a sweet gig!

LOOOOVE Kronos Quartet! Getting paid to listen live night after night
is a sweet gig! BRBR

Yes it is, lots of interesting travel, great music, good venues, constant
challenges.

Scott Fraser

LOOOOVE Kronos Quartet! Getting paid to listen live night after night
is a sweet gig! BRBR

Yes it is, lots of interesting travel, great music, good venues, constant
challenges.

Scott Fraser

In article writes:

I am working with a band that is starting to introduce a lot of
sampled/pre-recorded material into their live music. Because many of the
sampled arrangements are rather complex and don't fall conveniently at the
beginning or end of a song the band will be playing along with a
sequencer/sampler that will be playing back the samples as the song plays

Does typically only the drummer hear the click track, and then everyone
follows him/her?

Do you trust the drummer to follow a click track? g My sense
(without hearing the procution) is that it would be better for
everyone to have the click track. At least on the average they'd start
and end at the right place. And with practice, they'd all stay right
in sync.

What is most commonly used to generate the click track and
where is it connected in the signal chain? A sequencer application running
on a computer via MIDI, like the metronome in Cubase/Nuendo, etc? A
standalone piece of hardware dedicated to this purpose?

I get nervous when I see computer hardware on stage. Unless there's
some compelling need for the stamples to be in stereo or a
multi-channel format, I'd record the "effects" on a CD or Minidisk,
using one track for the sample playback and the other channel for the
click. Just connect it to two inputs of your mixer. Send one track to
the house and the monitors, and the other track to the monitors only.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

I am working with a band that is starting to introduce a lot of
sampled/pre-recorded material into their live music. Because many of the
sampled arrangements are rather complex and don't fall conveniently at the
beginning or end of a song the band will be playing along with a
sequencer/sampler that will be playing back the samples as the song plays

Does typically only the drummer hear the click track, and then everyone
follows him/her?

Do you trust the drummer to follow a click track? g My sense
(without hearing the procution) is that it would be better for
everyone to have the click track. At least on the average they'd start
and end at the right place. And with practice, they'd all stay right
in sync.

What is most commonly used to generate the click track and
where is it connected in the signal chain? A sequencer application running
on a computer via MIDI, like the metronome in Cubase/Nuendo, etc? A
standalone piece of hardware dedicated to this purpose?

I get nervous when I see computer hardware on stage. Unless there's
some compelling need for the stamples to be in stereo or a
multi-channel format, I'd record the "effects" on a CD or Minidisk,
using one track for the sample playback and the other channel for the
click. Just connect it to two inputs of your mixer. Send one track to
the house and the monitors, and the other track to the monitors only.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

I'm not sure if this will work in your situation, but for me all I
have to do it is have someone on the "Tap Tempo" button and when I
play a sequence it's spot on every time.

If you have a sequencer that has tempo change capabilities then you
can make a click track (or 'tempo map') from a live take so that it is
much more natural. I've done this as well and sometimes it's the only
thing that works.

I'm not sure if this will work in your situation, but for me all I
have to do it is have someone on the "Tap Tempo" button and when I
play a sequence it's spot on every time.

If you have a sequencer that has tempo change capabilities then you
can make a click track (or 'tempo map') from a live take so that it is
much more natural. I've done this as well and sometimes it's the only
thing that works.

IMHO drummer should be definitely starting the click.

IMHO drummer should be definitely starting the click.

If it is hard for the drummer to hear the click, has anybody ever
tried a click LIGHT or other type visual cue? Maybe time for someone
to invent a new gadget?

Mark

If it is hard for the drummer to hear the click, has anybody ever
tried a click LIGHT or other type visual cue? Maybe time for someone
to invent a new gadget?

Mark

Mark wrote:
If it is hard for the drummer to hear the click, has anybody ever
tried a click LIGHT or other type visual cue? Maybe time for someone
to invent a new gadget?

That's what the conductor does.

On film soundtrack gigs, a flashing light or banners across the projected film
image are used for the band to keep perfect time.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Mark wrote:
If it is hard for the drummer to hear the click, has anybody ever
tried a click LIGHT or other type visual cue? Maybe time for someone
to invent a new gadget?

That's what the conductor does.

On film soundtrack gigs, a flashing light or banners across the projected film
image are used for the band to keep perfect time.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In article writes:

If it is hard for the drummer to hear the click, has anybody ever
tried a click LIGHT or other type visual cue? Maybe time for someone
to invent a new gadget?

It's already been invented, and in fact I read here not too long ago
that it had re-emerged. There's a MIDI-controlled light box that
"plays" a pattern that moves like a conductor's baton. Can't think
of the name, but a creative Google search of this newsgroup will
probably dig it up.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

If it is hard for the drummer to hear the click, has anybody ever
tried a click LIGHT or other type visual cue? Maybe time for someone
to invent a new gadget?

It's already been invented, and in fact I read here not too long ago
that it had re-emerged. There's a MIDI-controlled light box that
"plays" a pattern that moves like a conductor's baton. Can't think
of the name, but a creative Google search of this newsgroup will
probably dig it up.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Mike Rivers wrote:

dy writes:

If it is hard for the drummer to hear the click, has anybody ever
tried a click LIGHT or other type visual cue? Maybe time for someone
to invent a new gadget?

It's already been invented, and in fact I read here not too long ago
that it had re-emerged. There's a MIDI-controlled light box that
"plays" a pattern that moves like a conductor's baton. Can't think
of the name, but a creative Google search of this newsgroup will
probably dig it up.

There's also the Beat Bug.

--
ha

Mike Rivers wrote:

dy writes:

If it is hard for the drummer to hear the click, has anybody ever
tried a click LIGHT or other type visual cue? Maybe time for someone
to invent a new gadget?

It's already been invented, and in fact I read here not too long ago
that it had re-emerged. There's a MIDI-controlled light box that
"plays" a pattern that moves like a conductor's baton. Can't think
of the name, but a creative Google search of this newsgroup will
probably dig it up.

There's also the Beat Bug.

--
ha

Two thoughts:

In most situations tempos below 90PBM should be doubled on the click.

In the studio I've found that the most popular click is a straight unaccented
"side stick" sound on a separate ("more me") headfone control which the talent
can control.
--------- on the upbeat --- Flash -- Flashpoint Recording -- Austin TX
flashpointrecording.com

Two thoughts:

In most situations tempos below 90PBM should be doubled on the click.

In the studio I've found that the most popular click is a straight unaccented
"side stick" sound on a separate ("more me") headfone control which the talent
can control.
--------- on the upbeat --- Flash -- Flashpoint Recording -- Austin TX
flashpointrecording.com

Hey Andy, thanks for the response. You are right about the PG setup I think.
I thought, the first time I saw the LCD's all over the stage, that it may
have been something like Ableton Live. But it is Logic I am pretty sure,
with all the color bars. I just went back and watched the Growing Up tour
DVD again (PG's latest tour and DVD) and he has a laptop beside his keys
onstage. I wonder if that is where it is coming from? In one sense surpiring
to see such an important task delegated to a $2500 laptop, but on the other
hand, he is so into computer technology in music that if anyone would do it,
it would be him.

-Ben

"Andy Cormack" wrote in message
m...
Hi all
Been lurking here for a while and can't tell you how much Ive
learned... Thanks a lot everyone..!

Ben, I've played a few gigs where weve had lots of samples/used a
click, we've done it different ways, so I've just got a couple of
things to add:

Every time we did it, the drummer only had the click (we felt we
wanted the least click necessary). Bare (bear?!) in mind kit player
could easily find it tough playing to the click if the band is
changing tempo or if he/she (and everyone else) is not used to it -
might need more rehearsal time.

One band (even though the tunes were up to 60% samples) we just
chopped up/recycled the samples. Longer less rhythmical samples were
fine anyway, shorter samples were recycled + played by someone 16th
note (or whatever) at a time. We used an Akai CD3000XL (I think) and a
zip drive. This worked great - we didn't need a click at all.

I've used a laptop (g4 powerbook) running logic to generate a click,
but the audio/minidisc approach above is way way better. I have also
tried ditching the samples and running a couple of strips of audio out
of logic/powerbook motu 828 and a click for the drummer only. We did
this at a well known festival here in England. The guy responsible for
controlling the laptop throughout the set only closed the arrange page
instead of the song file each time. The laptop got about 3/4 of the
way through the set before crashing... Alternate version of that tune
that night!

If I remember right (I/he may be wrong...), a friend who was involved
in a recent Peter Gabriel tour told me they had logic running a click
(possibly audio too) and each band member had a screen with a big
transport bar showing song position in bars/beats etc. There is no way
Peter Gabriels musicians need that: got to be for show only.
(Sorry for the long post)
Regards
Andy

(ESideFlash) wrote in message ...
Two thoughts:

In most situations tempos below 90PBM should be doubled on the click.

In the studio I've found that the most popular click is a straight unaccented
"side stick" sound on a separate ("more me") headfone control which the talent
can control.
--------- on the upbeat --- Flash -- Flashpoint Recording -- Austin TX
flashpointrecording.com

Good point about doubling the slow tempos. Even tho the point about
having and using audio track is well taken, I think that for some
types of music (punk comes to mind), an act may want to change the
tempo (without changing pitch) at the last minute. That's very hard
(or impossible) to do with many audio formats/devices.

IIRC, someone once made a (MIDI?) device that follows the drummer's
tempo and syncs the sequencer to that. Anyone remember this?

Mikey Wozniak
Nova Music Productioins
This sig is haiku

Good point about doubling the slow tempos. Even tho the point about
having and using audio track is well taken, I think that for some
types of music (punk comes to mind), an act may want to change the
tempo (without changing pitch) at the last minute. That's very hard
(or impossible) to do with many audio formats/devices.

IIRC, someone once made a (MIDI?) device that follows the drummer's
tempo and syncs the sequencer to that. Anyone remember this?

Mikey Wozniak
Nova Music Productioins
This sig is haiku

Yes, it was Kahler's "Human Clock". I'm thinking it was some other
company who originally invented & marketed the product, and then
Kahler bought them, but I could be thinking of something else...
Memory's a bit fuzzy on things I read once in Keyboard magazine back
in the late 80's...
-Pete

In article ,
(Pete J) wrote:

Good point about doubling the slow tempos. Even tho the point about
having and using audio track is well taken, I think that for some
types of music (punk comes to mind), an act may want to change the
tempo (without changing pitch) at the last minute. That's very hard
(or impossible) to do with many audio formats/devices.

IIRC, someone once made a (MIDI?) device that follows the drummer's
tempo and syncs the sequencer to that. Anyone remember this?

Mikey Wozniak
Nova Music Productioins
This sig is haiku

Yes, it was Kahler's "Human Clock". I'm thinking it was some other
company who originally invented & marketed the product, and then
Kahler bought them, but I could be thinking of something else...
Memory's a bit fuzzy on things I read once in Keyboard magazine back
in the late 80's...
-Pete

Russian Dragon?

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x---------- http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jay/ ------------x

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:znr1096459682k@trad...
....
Do you trust the drummer to follow a click track? g My sense
(without hearing the procution) is that it would be better for
everyone to have the click track. At least on the average they'd start
and end at the right place. And with practice, they'd all stay right
in sync.

Hey..! I resemble that remark! Actually, in my experience (being
a drummer who can follow a click) I have found that it's everyone else
who has trouble doing it. OK, I'm half-kidding.. I've seen
guitarists play really strange rhythms while listening to a click, but
that's because they're just not used to it. So yes, practicing with
the click is the key, for whoever in the band is monitoring it. I
would like to someday, somehow compell the rest of the band to listen
to my click track-- it would save me from having to count off certain
tunes or keep time where I would otherwise be muted. But with most
bands I've worked with, or recorded, I've noticed that the rest of the
band really despises this task of listening to and "being a slave" to
the click, so they're perfectly content to let the drummer alone
suffer with that g-d awful thing clanking in his ears!

What is most commonly used to generate the click track and
where is it connected in the signal chain? A sequencer application running
on a computer via MIDI, like the metronome in Cubase/Nuendo, etc? A
standalone piece of hardware dedicated to this purpose?

I get nervous when I see computer hardware on stage. Unless there's
some compelling need for the stamples to be in stereo or a
multi-channel format, I'd record the "effects" on a CD or Minidisk,
using one track for the sample playback and the other channel for the
click. Just connect it to two inputs of your mixer. Send one track to
the house and the monitors, and the other track to the monitors only.

Oh man.. I just saw a horror story in action. A group
(electronic/duo) played before us at a club show recently and I had
the same reaction when I saw them setting up: "Uh oh.. a Windows PC on
stage, plugged into a tiny behringer mixer, with cheap looking cables,
usb keyboard, vocalist has his own effects processor... it looks like
they transplanted their bedroom studio for the night... Gee, I hope
they've done this before...!" Well, they started, and the computer
was in fact making some pretty neat noises, then it sputtered. They
spent then next eternity (10 min?) moving the mouse around, pointing
at the screen, wiggling cables (is that a soundblaster I see?)
checking the mic, repatching cables, etc... I was chuckling inside
and saying "I knew it" to my wife, but I felt bad for them and I did
want to see their show. They finally started up again and got about
30 sec into a song when something crapped out again. That was it, the
firweorks fizzled, and I expected to see a big cane come out to pull
them off the stage. I never did find out what the culprit was.
Hey sorry to ramble on so, but I really wanted to share this story,
and this seemed like a good opportunity to interject!.

Back on the subject of click tracks, I agree with Mike on the
suggestion of using something like a MiniDisc. If you're only using
it on a few songs, this works very well. I've used a MD and a DCC
(got some use out of it that way!) in this fashion. You just prep the
tape/disc (mix down from your PC that you leave in the bedroom?) with
a click on one side and samples/backing tracks on the other, get a
decent Y cable, put a DI on the output with the samples, and send the
click to, oh I don't know, a tiny behringer mixer, and have the
drummer monitor that with headphones. This is a pretty crude method,
but it gets the job done and I'll bet you already have all the pieces
of gear lying around to make it work.

Cheers fellas!
-Pete

(Pete J)
Actually, in my experience (being
a drummer who can follow a click) I have found that it's everyone else
who has trouble doing it. OK, I'm half-kidding.. I've seen
guitarists play really strange rhythms while listening to a click, but
that's because they're just not used to it. So yes, practicing with
the click is the key, for whoever in the band is monitoring it. I
would like to someday, somehow compell the rest of the band to listen
to my click track-- it would save me from having to count off certain
tunes or keep time where I would otherwise be muted. But with most
bands I've worked with, or recorded, I've noticed that the rest of the
band really despises this task of listening to and "being a slave" to
the click, so they're perfectly content to let the drummer alone
suffer with that g-d awful thing clanking in his ears!


Playing with a click isn't always the most musical choice. On some songs
certain sections might sound better driven strictly with a click but other
sections might sound more musical and organic letting the band play free. The
late Ray Charles in this month's Mix is quoted saying something like "You can
tell the drummer, you can tell the horn section and you can tell the bass
player that I don't have a timing problem because what I'm doing is emotion!"
So sure clicks are often neccessary, but they can also kill the feel of a tune.

So sometimes, using a drum machine for a click track I've just dropped it
in and out of a song on the fly, in on some sections and out on others,
pushing the band on some sections and letting the song breath on others. You
can even adjust the tempo a bit in prefade, if the band was feeling the
upcoming section at a slightly different tempo.

Maybe not best for every song - certainly not if you're *playing* on the
tune - but a nice way to work on occasion if you're producing/engineering and
have a feel for what the band is doing.


Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

So sure clicks are often neccessary, but they can also kill the feel of a
tune. BRBR

Kronos uses clicks for some of the live concert pieces & throughout the entire
upcoming studio release, but they state emphatically that they view the click
as a guide, not as a dictator. They're very comfortable sliding around within
the click & have mentioned that a click is not a singular point in time, but a
moment that has duration. Where, within that duration, one places the note, is
the realm of expressiveness of the musician.
Scott Fraser

One funny thing I found out, when I started talking to some people on the
Peter Gabriel newsgroup, was that their live samples are all triggered off
of a Mac running Logic Audio. On the most recent tour, they had two Mac
computers, each with Pro Tools DSP hardware in them, running Logic. The
computers played back the pre-recorded/sampled material. Each one also
generated the click track. In addition to this, each computer used a piece
of software that generated a sine wav at 1 Hz. The audio outputs of the
computers fed into a special box that listened to this sine wave
"heartbeat". If the master computer stopped sending it's heartbeat, the
audio being played back from the second computer was automatically selected
for playback, and vice-versa, so that it was redundant.

One guy on the group also mentioned that in one case, both machines died at
the same time, and the show had to stop briefly.

I thought it was interesting that such an important task was really being
triggered from a desktop computer, and also that they had suffered the same
malady that the band you saw did.

-Ben

"Pete J" wrote in message
om...
(Mike Rivers) wrote in message
news:znr1096459682k@trad...
...
Do you trust the drummer to follow a click track? g My sense
(without hearing the procution) is that it would be better for
everyone to have the click track. At least on the average they'd start
and end at the right place. And with practice, they'd all stay right
in sync.

Hey..! I resemble that remark! Actually, in my experience (being
a drummer who can follow a click) I have found that it's everyone else
who has trouble doing it. OK, I'm half-kidding.. I've seen
guitarists play really strange rhythms while listening to a click, but
that's because they're just not used to it. So yes, practicing with
the click is the key, for whoever in the band is monitoring it. I
would like to someday, somehow compell the rest of the band to listen
to my click track-- it would save me from having to count off certain
tunes or keep time where I would otherwise be muted. But with most
bands I've worked with, or recorded, I've noticed that the rest of the
band really despises this task of listening to and "being a slave" to
the click, so they're perfectly content to let the drummer alone
suffer with that g-d awful thing clanking in his ears!

What is most commonly used to generate the click track and
where is it connected in the signal chain? A sequencer application
running
on a computer via MIDI, like the metronome in Cubase/Nuendo, etc? A
standalone piece of hardware dedicated to this purpose?

I get nervous when I see computer hardware on stage. Unless there's
some compelling need for the stamples to be in stereo or a
multi-channel format, I'd record the "effects" on a CD or Minidisk,
using one track for the sample playback and the other channel for the
click. Just connect it to two inputs of your mixer. Send one track to
the house and the monitors, and the other track to the monitors only.

Oh man.. I just saw a horror story in action. A group
(electronic/duo) played before us at a club show recently and I had
the same reaction when I saw them setting up: "Uh oh.. a Windows PC on
stage, plugged into a tiny behringer mixer, with cheap looking cables,
usb keyboard, vocalist has his own effects processor... it looks like
they transplanted their bedroom studio for the night... Gee, I hope
they've done this before...!" Well, they started, and the computer
was in fact making some pretty neat noises, then it sputtered. They
spent then next eternity (10 min?) moving the mouse around, pointing
at the screen, wiggling cables (is that a soundblaster I see?)
checking the mic, repatching cables, etc... I was chuckling inside
and saying "I knew it" to my wife, but I felt bad for them and I did
want to see their show. They finally started up again and got about
30 sec into a song when something crapped out again. That was it, the
firweorks fizzled, and I expected to see a big cane come out to pull
them off the stage. I never did find out what the culprit was.
Hey sorry to ramble on so, but I really wanted to share this story,
and this seemed like a good opportunity to interject!.

Back on the subject of click tracks, I agree with Mike on the
suggestion of using something like a MiniDisc. If you're only using
it on a few songs, this works very well. I've used a MD and a DCC
(got some use out of it that way!) in this fashion. You just prep the
tape/disc (mix down from your PC that you leave in the bedroom?) with
a click on one side and samples/backing tracks on the other, get a
decent Y cable, put a DI on the output with the samples, and send the
click to, oh I don't know, a tiny behringer mixer, and have the
drummer monitor that with headphones. This is a pretty crude method,
but it gets the job done and I'll bet you already have all the pieces
of gear lying around to make it work.

Cheers fellas!
-Pete

Jay Kadis wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Pete J) wrote:

Good point about doubling the slow tempos. Even tho the point about
having and using audio track is well taken, I think that for some
types of music (punk comes to mind), an act may want to change the
tempo (without changing pitch) at the last minute. That's very hard
(or impossible) to do with many audio formats/devices.

IIRC, someone once made a (MIDI?) device that follows the drummer's
tempo and syncs the sequencer to that. Anyone remember this?

Mikey Wozniak
Nova Music Productioins
This sig is haiku

Yes, it was Kahler's "Human Clock". I'm thinking it was some other
company who originally invented & marketed the product, and then
Kahler bought them, but I could be thinking of something else...
Memory's a bit fuzzy on things I read once in Keyboard magazine back
in the late 80's...
-Pete

Russian Dragon?

-Jay

I remember the Russian Dragon (Rushin'/Draggin') as the device that
measured whaether an input signal (drum hit) was ahead or behind a
(MIDI?) beat. IIRC, it was 1 RU with LED's to show off-tempo-ness.

Mikey Wozniak
Nova Music Productions
This sig is haiku

: (ScotFraser)
Kronos uses clicks for some of the live concert pieces & throughout the
entire
upcoming studio release, but they state emphatically that they view the click
as a guide, not as a dictator. They're very comfortable sliding around within
the click & have mentioned that a click is not a singular point in time, but a
moment that has duration. Where, within that duration, one places the note, is
the realm of expressiveness of the musician

Well real studio musicians can do that, play behind the beat, in front of
the beat, the click disappears when you do it well. My old guitar teacher used
to challenge me to which one of us could drag a solo the farthest back, very
typically jazz. That's a feel thing.

But Mickey Baker used to say that music is *supposed* to speed up, because
that's what happens as passion builds. Kinda an African tribal love rock
thing. if you can interact with the band by bringing the click in and out,
helping them where they need it but without killing the feel and emotion it's
cool, like being a extra band member.


Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits