I bought a Royer 122 not too long ago and have had some phase issues
when using it with other mics. I'm wondering if I'm just not using
this mic properly or if there is a problem somewhere. Is it typical
of using a figure-of-8 mic that watching the phase is very critical?

In one case, I recently close-miked a small guitar amp with an SM-57
right on the speaker, then put the Royer about 16" away from the
speaker as a second mic. I had the badge (front) side of the mic
facing the amp. When I summed the two channels the two mics were
definitely out of phase. I another case I was miking a solo banjo
player who was also singing. I experimentally tried the Royer to
record her vocal while putting the banjo in the null of the pattern.
I had 3 other cardioid mics set up at the same time to try to find the
best solution for sound and for separation. On playback I couldn't
get the Royer to sound right mixed in with any of the other mics -- I
could hear some weird phasing stuff going on whenever I added it to
the mix, so I ended up not using the track.

Al

playon wrote:
I bought a Royer 122 not too long ago and have had some phase issues
when using it with other mics. I'm wondering if I'm just not using
this mic properly or if there is a problem somewhere. Is it typical
of using a figure-of-8 mic that watching the phase is very critical?

In one case, I recently close-miked a small guitar amp with an SM-57
right on the speaker, then put the Royer about 16" away from the
speaker as a second mic. I had the badge (front) side of the mic
facing the amp. When I summed the two channels the two mics were
definitely out of phase.

I don't know if you meant polarity instead of phase, but if you have
two mics at different distances from the source, they will always
be out of phase, regardless of the polarity. Did you try putting them the
same distance away? Or time-aligning them later?

Also, I believe Royer advertises that one side of the mic is a bit
brighter or peakier and is a suggested option. It might be the rear
side that is.

Rob R.

playon wrote:
I bought a Royer 122 not too long ago and have had some phase issues
when using it with other mics. I'm wondering if I'm just not using
this mic properly or if there is a problem somewhere. Is it typical
of using a figure-of-8 mic that watching the phase is very critical?

In one case, I recently close-miked a small guitar amp with an SM-57
right on the speaker, then put the Royer about 16" away from the
speaker as a second mic. I had the badge (front) side of the mic
facing the amp. When I summed the two channels the two mics were
definitely out of phase.

I don't know if you meant polarity instead of phase, but if you have
two mics at different distances from the source, they will always
be out of phase, regardless of the polarity. Did you try putting them the
same distance away? Or time-aligning them later?

Also, I believe Royer advertises that one side of the mic is a bit
brighter or peakier and is a suggested option. It might be the rear
side that is.

Rob R.

playon wrote:

I bought a Royer 122 not too long ago and have had some phase issues
when using it with other mics. I'm wondering if I'm just not using
this mic properly or if there is a problem somewhere. Is it typical
of using a figure-of-8 mic that watching the phase is very critical?

In one case, I recently close-miked a small guitar amp with an SM-57
right on the speaker, then put the Royer about 16" away from the
speaker as a second mic. I had the badge (front) side of the mic
facing the amp. When I summed the two channels the two mics were
definitely out of phase. I another case I was miking a solo banjo
player who was also singing. I experimentally tried the Royer to
record her vocal while putting the banjo in the null of the pattern.
I had 3 other cardioid mics set up at the same time to try to find the
best solution for sound and for separation. On playback I couldn't
get the Royer to sound right mixed in with any of the other mics -- I
could hear some weird phasing stuff going on whenever I added it to
the mix, so I ended up not using the track.

A big thing with Fig 8's is what they're hearing on the back side. That
must be considered when positioning them, which can also be true to a
lesser extent with hypercardioids. Regarding the Sm57 + Royer event,
that's why real consoles have polarity switches. Flip it and listen. If
it works better with one of them flipped, use it that way.

--
ha

playon wrote:

I bought a Royer 122 not too long ago and have had some phase issues
when using it with other mics. I'm wondering if I'm just not using
this mic properly or if there is a problem somewhere. Is it typical
of using a figure-of-8 mic that watching the phase is very critical?

In one case, I recently close-miked a small guitar amp with an SM-57
right on the speaker, then put the Royer about 16" away from the
speaker as a second mic. I had the badge (front) side of the mic
facing the amp. When I summed the two channels the two mics were
definitely out of phase. I another case I was miking a solo banjo
player who was also singing. I experimentally tried the Royer to
record her vocal while putting the banjo in the null of the pattern.
I had 3 other cardioid mics set up at the same time to try to find the
best solution for sound and for separation. On playback I couldn't
get the Royer to sound right mixed in with any of the other mics -- I
could hear some weird phasing stuff going on whenever I added it to
the mix, so I ended up not using the track.

A big thing with Fig 8's is what they're hearing on the back side. That
must be considered when positioning them, which can also be true to a
lesser extent with hypercardioids. Regarding the Sm57 + Royer event,
that's why real consoles have polarity switches. Flip it and listen. If
it works better with one of them flipped, use it that way.

--
ha

I recently close-miked a small guitar amp with an SM-57
right on the speaker, then put the Royer about 16" away from the
speaker as a second mic. I had the badge (front) side of the mic
facing the amp. When I summed the two channels the two mics were
definitely out of phase. I another case I was miking a solo banjo
player who was also singing. I experimentally tried the Royer to
record her vocal while putting the banjo in the null of the pattern.
I had 3 other cardioid mics set up at the same time to try to find the
best solution for sound and for separation. On playback I couldn't
get the Royer to sound right mixed in with any of the other mics -- I
could hear some weird phasing stuff going on whenever I added it to
the mix, so I ended up not using the track.
BRBR

Anytime you have multiple non-coincident mics on a source, you need to flip
your polarity switches back & forth to see which way gives you the least
destructive comb filtering.
Scott Fraser

I recently close-miked a small guitar amp with an SM-57
right on the speaker, then put the Royer about 16" away from the
speaker as a second mic. I had the badge (front) side of the mic
facing the amp. When I summed the two channels the two mics were
definitely out of phase. I another case I was miking a solo banjo
player who was also singing. I experimentally tried the Royer to
record her vocal while putting the banjo in the null of the pattern.
I had 3 other cardioid mics set up at the same time to try to find the
best solution for sound and for separation. On playback I couldn't
get the Royer to sound right mixed in with any of the other mics -- I
could hear some weird phasing stuff going on whenever I added it to
the mix, so I ended up not using the track.
BRBR

Anytime you have multiple non-coincident mics on a source, you need to flip
your polarity switches back & forth to see which way gives you the least
destructive comb filtering.
Scott Fraser

playon wrote in message . ..
I bought a Royer 122 not too long ago and have had some phase issues
when using it with other mics. I'm wondering if I'm just not using
this mic properly or if there is a problem somewhere. Is it typical
of using a figure-of-8 mic that watching the phase is very critical?

In one case, I recently close-miked a small guitar amp with an SM-57
right on the speaker, then put the Royer about 16" away from the
speaker as a second mic. I had the badge (front) side of the mic
facing the amp. When I summed the two channels the two mics were
definitely out of phase. I another case I was miking a solo banjo
player who was also singing. I experimentally tried the Royer to
record her vocal while putting the banjo in the null of the pattern.
I had 3 other cardioid mics set up at the same time to try to find the
best solution for sound and for separation. On playback I couldn't
get the Royer to sound right mixed in with any of the other mics -- I
could hear some weird phasing stuff going on whenever I added it to
the mix, so I ended up not using the track.

I think there are (at least) two issues at play here. Regarding the
two mics on the guitar amp, you are dealing with simple phase
difference due to physical distance, i.e. the first mic (SM57) picks
up the sound right away, while the 2nd mic (Royer 122) picks up the
sound about 1.5ms later. Combining these two signals will certainly
result in comb filtering.

Secondly, ribbon mics (at least the ones with the natural figure-8
pickup) are "live" to the rear of the mic, and what is picked up from
the rear is out of polarity with what is picked up from the front. Not
so for an omni mic, for instance, which picks up sound from all
directions *in phase*. So if you are combining signals from a figure-8
mic and another, cardioid or omni mic, and then combine the signals
electrically, sounds arriving from the rear of both mics will have
phasing issues. Indeed, the use of a coincident pair of mics, one
being a figure-8 mic, and the other being any type of mic, and then
the outputs summed and differenced to produce stereo, is a stereo
technique (mid-side).

What I'll guess is happening is that you are getting strong enough
reflections with the guitar and perhaps vocal sounds, and those
reflections are entering the off-axis side/s of the mics, and then
handled very differently by the two types of mics. See if you can tame
those reflections and the results should improve.

Karl Winkler
Lectrosonics, Inc.
http://www.lectrosonics.com

playon wrote in message . ..
I bought a Royer 122 not too long ago and have had some phase issues
when using it with other mics. I'm wondering if I'm just not using
this mic properly or if there is a problem somewhere. Is it typical
of using a figure-of-8 mic that watching the phase is very critical?

In one case, I recently close-miked a small guitar amp with an SM-57
right on the speaker, then put the Royer about 16" away from the
speaker as a second mic. I had the badge (front) side of the mic
facing the amp. When I summed the two channels the two mics were
definitely out of phase. I another case I was miking a solo banjo
player who was also singing. I experimentally tried the Royer to
record her vocal while putting the banjo in the null of the pattern.
I had 3 other cardioid mics set up at the same time to try to find the
best solution for sound and for separation. On playback I couldn't
get the Royer to sound right mixed in with any of the other mics -- I
could hear some weird phasing stuff going on whenever I added it to
the mix, so I ended up not using the track.

I think there are (at least) two issues at play here. Regarding the
two mics on the guitar amp, you are dealing with simple phase
difference due to physical distance, i.e. the first mic (SM57) picks
up the sound right away, while the 2nd mic (Royer 122) picks up the
sound about 1.5ms later. Combining these two signals will certainly
result in comb filtering.

Secondly, ribbon mics (at least the ones with the natural figure-8
pickup) are "live" to the rear of the mic, and what is picked up from
the rear is out of polarity with what is picked up from the front. Not
so for an omni mic, for instance, which picks up sound from all
directions *in phase*. So if you are combining signals from a figure-8
mic and another, cardioid or omni mic, and then combine the signals
electrically, sounds arriving from the rear of both mics will have
phasing issues. Indeed, the use of a coincident pair of mics, one
being a figure-8 mic, and the other being any type of mic, and then
the outputs summed and differenced to produce stereo, is a stereo
technique (mid-side).

What I'll guess is happening is that you are getting strong enough
reflections with the guitar and perhaps vocal sounds, and those
reflections are entering the off-axis side/s of the mics, and then
handled very differently by the two types of mics. See if you can tame
those reflections and the results should improve.

Karl Winkler
Lectrosonics, Inc.
http://www.lectrosonics.com

Thanks for the responses everyone... turns out one of the mic cables
was wired incorrectly...

Al

On 28 Sep 2004 14:51:14 -0700, (Karl Winkler)
wrote:

playon wrote in message . ..
I bought a Royer 122 not too long ago and have had some phase issues
when using it with other mics. I'm wondering if I'm just not using
this mic properly or if there is a problem somewhere. Is it typical
of using a figure-of-8 mic that watching the phase is very critical?

In one case, I recently close-miked a small guitar amp with an SM-57
right on the speaker, then put the Royer about 16" away from the
speaker as a second mic. I had the badge (front) side of the mic
facing the amp. When I summed the two channels the two mics were
definitely out of phase. I another case I was miking a solo banjo
player who was also singing. I experimentally tried the Royer to
record her vocal while putting the banjo in the null of the pattern.
I had 3 other cardioid mics set up at the same time to try to find the
best solution for sound and for separation. On playback I couldn't
get the Royer to sound right mixed in with any of the other mics -- I
could hear some weird phasing stuff going on whenever I added it to
the mix, so I ended up not using the track.

I think there are (at least) two issues at play here. Regarding the
two mics on the guitar amp, you are dealing with simple phase
difference due to physical distance, i.e. the first mic (SM57) picks
up the sound right away, while the 2nd mic (Royer 122) picks up the
sound about 1.5ms later. Combining these two signals will certainly
result in comb filtering.

Secondly, ribbon mics (at least the ones with the natural figure-8
pickup) are "live" to the rear of the mic, and what is picked up from
the rear is out of polarity with what is picked up from the front. Not
so for an omni mic, for instance, which picks up sound from all
directions *in phase*. So if you are combining signals from a figure-8
mic and another, cardioid or omni mic, and then combine the signals
electrically, sounds arriving from the rear of both mics will have
phasing issues. Indeed, the use of a coincident pair of mics, one
being a figure-8 mic, and the other being any type of mic, and then
the outputs summed and differenced to produce stereo, is a stereo
technique (mid-side).

What I'll guess is happening is that you are getting strong enough
reflections with the guitar and perhaps vocal sounds, and those
reflections are entering the off-axis side/s of the mics, and then
handled very differently by the two types of mics. See if you can tame
those reflections and the results should improve.

Karl Winkler
Lectrosonics, Inc.
http://www.lectrosonics.com

Thanks for the responses everyone... turns out one of the mic cables
was wired incorrectly...

Al

On 28 Sep 2004 14:51:14 -0700, (Karl Winkler)
wrote:

playon wrote in message . ..
I bought a Royer 122 not too long ago and have had some phase issues
when using it with other mics. I'm wondering if I'm just not using
this mic properly or if there is a problem somewhere. Is it typical
of using a figure-of-8 mic that watching the phase is very critical?

In one case, I recently close-miked a small guitar amp with an SM-57
right on the speaker, then put the Royer about 16" away from the
speaker as a second mic. I had the badge (front) side of the mic
facing the amp. When I summed the two channels the two mics were
definitely out of phase. I another case I was miking a solo banjo
player who was also singing. I experimentally tried the Royer to
record her vocal while putting the banjo in the null of the pattern.
I had 3 other cardioid mics set up at the same time to try to find the
best solution for sound and for separation. On playback I couldn't
get the Royer to sound right mixed in with any of the other mics -- I
could hear some weird phasing stuff going on whenever I added it to
the mix, so I ended up not using the track.

I think there are (at least) two issues at play here. Regarding the
two mics on the guitar amp, you are dealing with simple phase
difference due to physical distance, i.e. the first mic (SM57) picks
up the sound right away, while the 2nd mic (Royer 122) picks up the
sound about 1.5ms later. Combining these two signals will certainly
result in comb filtering.

Secondly, ribbon mics (at least the ones with the natural figure-8
pickup) are "live" to the rear of the mic, and what is picked up from
the rear is out of polarity with what is picked up from the front. Not
so for an omni mic, for instance, which picks up sound from all
directions *in phase*. So if you are combining signals from a figure-8
mic and another, cardioid or omni mic, and then combine the signals
electrically, sounds arriving from the rear of both mics will have
phasing issues. Indeed, the use of a coincident pair of mics, one
being a figure-8 mic, and the other being any type of mic, and then
the outputs summed and differenced to produce stereo, is a stereo
technique (mid-side).

What I'll guess is happening is that you are getting strong enough
reflections with the guitar and perhaps vocal sounds, and those
reflections are entering the off-axis side/s of the mics, and then
handled very differently by the two types of mics. See if you can tame
those reflections and the results should improve.

Karl Winkler
Lectrosonics, Inc.
http://www.lectrosonics.com

That's great you solved your problem and I learned alot.
Tom


"playon" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the responses everyone... turns out one of the mic cables
was wired incorrectly...

Al

On 28 Sep 2004 14:51:14 -0700, (Karl Winkler)
wrote:

playon wrote in message
. ..
I bought a Royer 122 not too long ago and have had some phase issues
when using it with other mics. I'm wondering if I'm just not using
this mic properly or if there is a problem somewhere. Is it typical
of using a figure-of-8 mic that watching the phase is very critical?

In one case, I recently close-miked a small guitar amp with an SM-57
right on the speaker, then put the Royer about 16" away from the
speaker as a second mic. I had the badge (front) side of the mic
facing the amp. When I summed the two channels the two mics were
definitely out of phase. I another case I was miking a solo banjo
player who was also singing. I experimentally tried the Royer to
record her vocal while putting the banjo in the null of the pattern.
I had 3 other cardioid mics set up at the same time to try to find the
best solution for sound and for separation. On playback I couldn't
get the Royer to sound right mixed in with any of the other mics -- I
could hear some weird phasing stuff going on whenever I added it to
the mix, so I ended up not using the track.

I think there are (at least) two issues at play here. Regarding the
two mics on the guitar amp, you are dealing with simple phase
difference due to physical distance, i.e. the first mic (SM57) picks
up the sound right away, while the 2nd mic (Royer 122) picks up the
sound about 1.5ms later. Combining these two signals will certainly
result in comb filtering.

Secondly, ribbon mics (at least the ones with the natural figure-8
pickup) are "live" to the rear of the mic, and what is picked up from
the rear is out of polarity with what is picked up from the front. Not
so for an omni mic, for instance, which picks up sound from all
directions *in phase*. So if you are combining signals from a figure-8
mic and another, cardioid or omni mic, and then combine the signals
electrically, sounds arriving from the rear of both mics will have
phasing issues. Indeed, the use of a coincident pair of mics, one
being a figure-8 mic, and the other being any type of mic, and then
the outputs summed and differenced to produce stereo, is a stereo
technique (mid-side).

What I'll guess is happening is that you are getting strong enough
reflections with the guitar and perhaps vocal sounds, and those
reflections are entering the off-axis side/s of the mics, and then
handled very differently by the two types of mics. See if you can tame
those reflections and the results should improve.

Karl Winkler
Lectrosonics, Inc.
http://www.lectrosonics.com

That's great you solved your problem and I learned alot.
Tom


"playon" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the responses everyone... turns out one of the mic cables
was wired incorrectly...

Al

On 28 Sep 2004 14:51:14 -0700, (Karl Winkler)
wrote:

playon wrote in message
. ..
I bought a Royer 122 not too long ago and have had some phase issues
when using it with other mics. I'm wondering if I'm just not using
this mic properly or if there is a problem somewhere. Is it typical
of using a figure-of-8 mic that watching the phase is very critical?

In one case, I recently close-miked a small guitar amp with an SM-57
right on the speaker, then put the Royer about 16" away from the
speaker as a second mic. I had the badge (front) side of the mic
facing the amp. When I summed the two channels the two mics were
definitely out of phase. I another case I was miking a solo banjo
player who was also singing. I experimentally tried the Royer to
record her vocal while putting the banjo in the null of the pattern.
I had 3 other cardioid mics set up at the same time to try to find the
best solution for sound and for separation. On playback I couldn't
get the Royer to sound right mixed in with any of the other mics -- I
could hear some weird phasing stuff going on whenever I added it to
the mix, so I ended up not using the track.

I think there are (at least) two issues at play here. Regarding the
two mics on the guitar amp, you are dealing with simple phase
difference due to physical distance, i.e. the first mic (SM57) picks
up the sound right away, while the 2nd mic (Royer 122) picks up the
sound about 1.5ms later. Combining these two signals will certainly
result in comb filtering.

Secondly, ribbon mics (at least the ones with the natural figure-8
pickup) are "live" to the rear of the mic, and what is picked up from
the rear is out of polarity with what is picked up from the front. Not
so for an omni mic, for instance, which picks up sound from all
directions *in phase*. So if you are combining signals from a figure-8
mic and another, cardioid or omni mic, and then combine the signals
electrically, sounds arriving from the rear of both mics will have
phasing issues. Indeed, the use of a coincident pair of mics, one
being a figure-8 mic, and the other being any type of mic, and then
the outputs summed and differenced to produce stereo, is a stereo
technique (mid-side).

What I'll guess is happening is that you are getting strong enough
reflections with the guitar and perhaps vocal sounds, and those
reflections are entering the off-axis side/s of the mics, and then
handled very differently by the two types of mics. See if you can tame
those reflections and the results should improve.

Karl Winkler
Lectrosonics, Inc.
http://www.lectrosonics.com

In article playonATcomcast.net writes:

Thanks for the responses everyone... turns out one of the mic cables
was wired incorrectly...

That'll do it.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article playonATcomcast.net writes:

Thanks for the responses everyone... turns out one of the mic cables
was wired incorrectly...

That'll do it.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo