I have a small studio - 14 x 18 and want to be able to record my
Hammond speaker cabinet. Any thoughts on keeping the cabinet ouside
the room?

"David Carmosino" wrote in message
om...
I have a small studio - 14 x 18 and want to be able to record my
Hammond speaker cabinet. Any thoughts on keeping the cabinet ouside
the room?

Do you have a Hammond tone cabinet or a Leslie? Leslie cabs have cables
which connect them to the organ, and it's no problem at all to put the
cabinet in another room.

--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com

Hi Dave,

I have a Hammond CV with a DR20 tone cabinet now... would like to add
a Leslie soon. So you think keeping the cabinet outside the studio in
a separate room and micing it up there is a good idea? The DR20
cabinet has the reverb installed. Have you used this type of cabinet
at all?

Dave

"Dave Martin" wrote in message nk.net...
"David Carmosino" wrote in message
om...
I have a small studio - 14 x 18 and want to be able to record my
Hammond speaker cabinet. Any thoughts on keeping the cabinet ouside
the room?

Do you have a Hammond tone cabinet or a Leslie? Leslie cabs have cables
which connect them to the organ, and it's no problem at all to put the
cabinet in another room.

Well, the tone cabinets don't have the classic sound that you from Hammond
organs on records; I think that once you get a Leslie, you'll be amazed. As
far as isolating the cabinet from the organ, it depends on the player and
what else is in the room. I have one Hammond player where isolation is
necessary, because he doesn't like to play that loud. Another wants it in
the room with him so he can hear it break up... If you're recording anything
else at the same time you're recording the organ, you'll have to concern
yourself with the organ bleeding into other mics (and vice versa).

--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com

"David Carmosino" wrote in message
om...
Hi Dave,

I have a Hammond CV with a DR20 tone cabinet now... would like to add
a Leslie soon. So you think keeping the cabinet outside the studio in
a separate room and micing it up there is a good idea? The DR20
cabinet has the reverb installed. Have you used this type of cabinet
at all?

Dave

"Dave Martin" wrote in message
nk.net...
"David Carmosino" wrote in message
om...
I have a small studio - 14 x 18 and want to be able to record my
Hammond speaker cabinet. Any thoughts on keeping the cabinet ouside
the room?

Do you have a Hammond tone cabinet or a Leslie? Leslie cabs have cables
which connect them to the organ, and it's no problem at all to put the
cabinet in another room.

Yo you gotta get the Leslie! The speaker cabinet doesn't do the Hammond any
real justice sonically. It's like having Sonny without Cher or a Cheeseburger
without Fries and a Coke. You can do it, but you'll always feel like something
is missing. I don't know of any cool way to record your Hammond as is, but
there are a lot of Cool Things you can do when you get that Leslie. You can
record the reverb from the cabinet on one track (or stereo) and get a really
thick sound from the Leslie itself by micing both the top horn and the bottom
woofer. Or you could always just do one mic on the outside. In the meantime,
You should just be creative and experiment. See what happens. You might
discover something fresh that works for you.

By the way... here is a trick for miking a Leslie from an oldtimer.

Hammond played a trick on us. The spinning horn on top looks like it
has dual diaphragms opposing each other, making it appear the logical
mic technique for a stereo spread would be 3:00 and 6:00 (looking down
at the the top of the leslie cabinet as if it is a 360 degree clock
face)

However, one of the horns is actually just a mute placed there for
balance during the spin - so the correct mic placement for stereo is
actually 3:00 and 9:00.

I used to add a third mic on the bottom for the low freqs, panned in
the middle. It is a "mono" output.

Paul Motter wrote:

By the way... here is a trick for miking a Leslie from an oldtimer.

Hammond played a trick on us. The spinning horn on top looks like it
has dual diaphragms opposing each other, making it appear the logical
mic technique for a stereo spread would be 3:00 and 6:00 (looking down
at the the top of the leslie cabinet as if it is a 360 degree clock
face)

However, one of the horns is actually just a mute placed there for
balance during the spin - so the correct mic placement for stereo is
actually 3:00 and 9:00.

This gives me unnatural sounding results because, regardless of how its
panned, it doubles the apparant rotation rate. The best way I've found to
stereo mic a Leslie is with a coincident or M/S pair from at least three
feet away. This captures the room ambience and represents a more typical
listening position than coaxially with the rotor.

I used to add a third mic on the bottom for the low freqs, panned in
the middle. It is a "mono" output.

--
================================================== ======================
Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make
| two, one and one make one."
| - The Who, Bargain

Paul Motter wrote:
I used to add a third mic on the bottom for the low freqs, panned in
the middle. It is a "mono" output.

Yeah, what about that, anyway? I tried doing that on a Leslie once,
and the guy who owns it insisted that it wasn't necessary at all
and in fact it would make things sound bad. But then he also talks
about a technique where you hit the pedals really quickly to get kind
of an impulse thing (like a kick drum or something) rather than the
usual bass note out of them. To me, this doesn't match with the
idea of only micing the horn, but then this guy is very devoted to
the organ and knows a lot about it, so maybe there is something I
don't understand.

So what is the scoop, anyway? Is there really a reason micing the
bottom could sound bad? Is it going to cut down on the rotating
speaker effect since I've got some non-rotating component mixed in
as well? Should I mic the bottom and then cut everything above some
frequency (say 200 Hz) or something?

- Logan

Is there really a reason micing the
bottom could sound bad?

No. I always mic the bottom because that's where the bass comes out.

Is it going to cut down on the rotating
speaker effect since I've got some non-rotating component mixed in
as well?

The bass unit has a rotating baffle surrounding it, so there is rotation there
too, although it's not as extreme as the high rotor.

Should I mic the bottom and then cut everything above some
frequency (say 200 Hz) or something?

You could, but it's not necessary.



Scott Fraser

So what is the scoop, anyway? Is there really a reason micing the
bottom could sound bad?

Sure. If the player sucks the sound will be be bad. The low end of the
spectrum comes out of the bottom of the cabinet. If you only mic the top
you'll lose a bunch of information. You might choose to not add much of the
bottom mic in the mix, but you would be remiss if you didn't at least print the
track.




Joe Egan
EMP
Colchester, VT
www.eganmedia.com

Now I'm not going to tell anyone how they should do it, but in the few
recordings I've done live with Papa John, I put a mic at each of the major
compass points and choose once the tracks are done, but in a live two track
mixdown it's E, E+S, W, W+N, panned E=hard R, W= hard L, E+S = about ESE and
W+N = about WNW. Bottom is mic'd about 3 feet out in mono. That's with a
single 147. With double 147s, which is what he uses more often, put the E/W
on one, and N/S on the other and still pan the same way. Massive sound with
two. More Jimmy Smith with one, although obviously Papa John is more blues
based in his playing.

Now Joey's a totally different setup. One cannot deny the adept bottom end
Joey exhibits, both in his left hand, but more importanly on his pedals.
I've heard a number of bass players say just how much they've learned on
bass by listening to Joey's feet.

So the real answer is - you got it - IT DEPENDS.

I've also done Irene Reid's B3 player (well, a different player on a couple
of occasions) at 3 and 6 (or E and S in my viewpoint from the front, right
being east). Other's seem to prefer this too. Certainly it's the easiest
setup for any touring musician that doesn't know who's running FOH or who's
manning the console for recording.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Paul Motter" wrote in message
om...
By the way... here is a trick for miking a Leslie from an oldtimer.

Hammond played a trick on us. The spinning horn on top looks like it
has dual diaphragms opposing each other, making it appear the logical
mic technique for a stereo spread would be 3:00 and 6:00 (looking down
at the the top of the leslie cabinet as if it is a 360 degree clock
face)

However, one of the horns is actually just a mute placed there for
balance during the spin - so the correct mic placement for stereo is
actually 3:00 and 9:00.

I used to add a third mic on the bottom for the low freqs, panned in
the middle. It is a "mono" output.

Umm, on my Leslie, the low rotor is just as prominent as the high rotor,
because of the speed differences. The low rotor speeds up slower, and it
slows down slower. Part of the magic, for me.

--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com

"ScotFraser" wrote in message
...
Is there really a reason micing the
bottom could sound bad?

No. I always mic the bottom because that's where the bass comes out.

Is it going to cut down on the rotating
speaker effect since I've got some non-rotating component mixed in
as well?

The bass unit has a rotating baffle surrounding it, so there is rotation
there
too, although it's not as extreme as the high rotor.

Should I mic the bottom and then cut everything above some
frequency (say 200 Hz) or something?

You could, but it's not necessary.



Scott Fraser

Massive sound with
two. More Jimmy Smith with one,

Last time I mixed Jimmy Smith he used two 147s.



Scott Fraser

Massive sound with
two. More Jimmy Smith with one,

Last time I mixed Jimmy Smith he used two 147s.



Scott Fraser

Umm, on my Leslie, the low rotor is just as prominent as the high rotor,
because of the speed differences.

Well, to my ear the low rotor has less amplitude modulation & the doppler shift
(there's that word again) is not as noticeable as with the high rotor.
Instinct tells me this is because the low rotor is just a slot in a revolving
drum around a stationary speaker, whereas the high rotor is a very directional
funnel that spews HF in a fairly tight pattern. Also the distortion harmonics
are going to be mostly in the high rotor. Nevertheless, in answer to the OP,
yes, the bottom should be miked also.

The low rotor speeds up slower, and it
slows down slower. Part of the magic, for me.

Sure, but how does that affect the effect? I just don't hear as much
rotationality on the bottom, though the magic is undiminished.



Scott Fraser

Umm, on my Leslie, the low rotor is just as prominent as the high rotor,
because of the speed differences.

Well, to my ear the low rotor has less amplitude modulation & the doppler shift
(there's that word again) is not as noticeable as with the high rotor.
Instinct tells me this is because the low rotor is just a slot in a revolving
drum around a stationary speaker, whereas the high rotor is a very directional
funnel that spews HF in a fairly tight pattern. Also the distortion harmonics
are going to be mostly in the high rotor. Nevertheless, in answer to the OP,
yes, the bottom should be miked also.

The low rotor speeds up slower, and it
slows down slower. Part of the magic, for me.

Sure, but how does that affect the effect? I just don't hear as much
rotationality on the bottom, though the magic is undiminished.



Scott Fraser

Should I mic the bottom and then cut everything above some
frequency (say 200 Hz) or something?

You could, but it's not necessary.

Dave,
I just realized in rereading this that I may have given the impression that
miking the bottom is unnecessary. It is definitely necessary. I meant the OP
needn't do any filtering, as he asked about, but yes, the bottom absolutely has
to be miked.

Scott Fraser

Should I mic the bottom and then cut everything above some
frequency (say 200 Hz) or something?

You could, but it's not necessary.

Dave,
I just realized in rereading this that I may have given the impression that
miking the bottom is unnecessary. It is definitely necessary. I meant the OP
needn't do any filtering, as he asked about, but yes, the bottom absolutely has
to be miked.

Scott Fraser

EganMedia wrote:

So what is the scoop, anyway? Is there really a reason micing the
bottom could sound bad?

Sure. If the player sucks the sound will be be bad. The low end of the
spectrum comes out of the bottom of the cabinet. If you only mic the top
you'll lose a bunch of information. You might choose to not add much of the
bottom mic in the mix, but you would be remiss if you didn't at least print the
track.

Well actually I was talking about live sound in this case (in a room big
enough where some people wouldn't be able to hear the leslie directly),
but the point remains the same, I guess.

Hmm, I'm starting to wonder why the organ player I was talking to thought
it would sound bad. Maybe there was a misunderstanding and he thought
I was going to mic *only* the bottom or something.

- Logan

EganMedia wrote:

So what is the scoop, anyway? Is there really a reason micing the
bottom could sound bad?

Sure. If the player sucks the sound will be be bad. The low end of the
spectrum comes out of the bottom of the cabinet. If you only mic the top
you'll lose a bunch of information. You might choose to not add much of the
bottom mic in the mix, but you would be remiss if you didn't at least print the
track.

Well actually I was talking about live sound in this case (in a room big
enough where some people wouldn't be able to hear the leslie directly),
but the point remains the same, I guess.

Hmm, I'm starting to wonder why the organ player I was talking to thought
it would sound bad. Maybe there was a misunderstanding and he thought
I was going to mic *only* the bottom or something.

- Logan

In article writes:

Well, to my ear the low rotor has less amplitude modulation & the doppler shift
(there's that word again) is not as noticeable as with the high rotor.

The top is frequency modulated (the old Doppler thing), but the bottom
is essentially amplitude modulated.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

Well, to my ear the low rotor has less amplitude modulation & the doppler shift
(there's that word again) is not as noticeable as with the high rotor.

The top is frequency modulated (the old Doppler thing), but the bottom
is essentially amplitude modulated.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

The top is frequency modulated (the old Doppler thing), but the bottom
is essentially amplitude modulated.

Along with all the oddities of spraying sound into the inside of a rather
resonant plywood box.

Scott Fraser

The top is frequency modulated (the old Doppler thing), but the bottom
is essentially amplitude modulated.

Along with all the oddities of spraying sound into the inside of a rather
resonant plywood box.

Scott Fraser

ScotFraser wrote:

I just realized in rereading this that I may have given the impression
that miking the bottom is unnecessary. It is definitely necessary. I meant
the OP needn't do any filtering, as he asked about, but yes, the bottom
absolutely has to be miked.

I'll assume we're assuming close micing here, because if not, then a
stereo pair somewhat back from the Leslie in a decent room offers
another fascinating Leslification of music.

--
ha

ScotFraser wrote:

I just realized in rereading this that I may have given the impression
that miking the bottom is unnecessary. It is definitely necessary. I meant
the OP needn't do any filtering, as he asked about, but yes, the bottom
absolutely has to be miked.

I'll assume we're assuming close micing here, because if not, then a
stereo pair somewhat back from the Leslie in a decent room offers
another fascinating Leslification of music.

--
ha

I'll assume we're assuming close micing here, because if not, then a
stereo pair somewhat back from the Leslie in a decent room offers
another fascinating Leslification of music.

That's the assumption I'm assuming, & i'd say that choice was really predicated
upon the player's playing.

Scott Fraser

I'll assume we're assuming close micing here, because if not, then a
stereo pair somewhat back from the Leslie in a decent room offers
another fascinating Leslification of music.

That's the assumption I'm assuming, & i'd say that choice was really predicated
upon the player's playing.

Scott Fraser

"Dave Martin" wrote in message nk.net...
"David Carmosino" wrote in message
om...
I have a small studio - 14 x 18 and want to be able to record my
Hammond speaker cabinet. Any thoughts on keeping the cabinet ouside
the room?

Do you have a Hammond tone cabinet or a Leslie? Leslie cabs have cables
which connect them to the organ, and it's no problem at all to put the
cabinet in another room.

I once read a story about Emerson, Lake, and Palmer placing one of
Emerson's Leslies backstage in a room, so they could mic it up
isolated from the stage noise.

Some hanger ons backstage discovered this room, and hey music was
coming out so they decided to hang out there and party while the show
was going on.

So the sounds of people carrying on, drinking, etc. were getting
broadcast through the PA until the FOH guy sent someone back there to
roust them out.

Analogeezer

p.s. Purists will cringe (and there ain't nothing like the real thing)
but I've found the Hughes and Kettner Rotosphere to be a pretty good
fake Leslie, the preamp has a nice growl to it and the hi/low rotor
balance is adjustable, and with the Mk II model, you can also slightly
tweak the speed.

"Dave Martin" wrote in message nk.net...
"David Carmosino" wrote in message
om...
I have a small studio - 14 x 18 and want to be able to record my
Hammond speaker cabinet. Any thoughts on keeping the cabinet ouside
the room?

Do you have a Hammond tone cabinet or a Leslie? Leslie cabs have cables
which connect them to the organ, and it's no problem at all to put the
cabinet in another room.

I once read a story about Emerson, Lake, and Palmer placing one of
Emerson's Leslies backstage in a room, so they could mic it up
isolated from the stage noise.

Some hanger ons backstage discovered this room, and hey music was
coming out so they decided to hang out there and party while the show
was going on.

So the sounds of people carrying on, drinking, etc. were getting
broadcast through the PA until the FOH guy sent someone back there to
roust them out.

Analogeezer

p.s. Purists will cringe (and there ain't nothing like the real thing)
but I've found the Hughes and Kettner Rotosphere to be a pretty good
fake Leslie, the preamp has a nice growl to it and the hi/low rotor
balance is adjustable, and with the Mk II model, you can also slightly
tweak the speed.

On 10 Sep 2004 08:08:25 -0700, Analogeezer
wrote:

Some hanger ons backstage discovered this room, and hey music was
coming out so they decided to hang out there and party while the show
was going on.

So the sounds of people carrying on, drinking, etc. were getting
broadcast through the PA until the FOH guy sent someone back there to
roust them out.

Cool!!

Analogeezer

p.s. Purists will cringe (and there ain't nothing like the real thing)
but I've found the Hughes and Kettner Rotosphere to be a pretty good
fake Leslie, the preamp has a nice growl to it and the hi/low rotor
balance is adjustable, and with the Mk II model, you can also slightly
tweak the speed.

I used to carry a 147 with my live rig: Crumar "Traveler 1" organ,
mostly, with occasional Rhodes or whatver synths I was using at the
time.

Then I got one of the original CX-3s and decided that, although I could
tell the difference, by the time it got to FoH, no one else could and my
bandmates were "encouraging" me to pare down my live rig considerably.

The original got the accel/deccel right for the treble, though the bass
wasn't distinct as it is on the genuine article.

On 10 Sep 2004 08:08:25 -0700, Analogeezer
wrote:

Some hanger ons backstage discovered this room, and hey music was
coming out so they decided to hang out there and party while the show
was going on.

So the sounds of people carrying on, drinking, etc. were getting
broadcast through the PA until the FOH guy sent someone back there to
roust them out.

Cool!!

Analogeezer

p.s. Purists will cringe (and there ain't nothing like the real thing)
but I've found the Hughes and Kettner Rotosphere to be a pretty good
fake Leslie, the preamp has a nice growl to it and the hi/low rotor
balance is adjustable, and with the Mk II model, you can also slightly
tweak the speed.

I used to carry a 147 with my live rig: Crumar "Traveler 1" organ,
mostly, with occasional Rhodes or whatver synths I was using at the
time.

Then I got one of the original CX-3s and decided that, although I could
tell the difference, by the time it got to FoH, no one else could and my
bandmates were "encouraging" me to pare down my live rig considerably.

The original got the accel/deccel right for the treble, though the bass
wasn't distinct as it is on the genuine article.